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What if-The British and Americans got to Berlin before the Soviets?


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Sqn Ldr B #1 Posted 06 August 2015 - 03:46 PM

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What do you think would have happened if, for some reason, the Soviets' advance across Eastern Europe was halted, or slowed down, and the British, Commonwealth and American forces had got to Berlin before them? Would Hitler still have chosen to kill himself? Would the division of Germany post-war have been any different? What do you all think?

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RUNNINGDUDE1 #2 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:07 PM

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Hitler still would have committed suicide since he knew the war was lost and would been executed.

Sqn Ldr B #3 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:14 PM

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I kind of thought Hitler might not have killed himself, since one of his main reasons for doing so was to prevent the Soviets getting their hands on him, where he would undoubtedly have suffered a horrible end. Perhaps he might not have killed himself if the British or Americans were going to capture him, since they would probably have treated him with a degree of dignity, more so than the Russians would.

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Sgt Becket FEAR #4 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:22 PM

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You do know that the Western Allies agreed to let the Soviets take Berlin as a sign of good will so that they would stay in the war and help with the fight against the Japanese right? (That or my Western Civ 2 teacher was full of s**t)

 

Patton had a come apart about it but his superiors kept him quiet.

 

It worked. The Soviets turned their attention to Occupied China and steamrolled the Japanese there.

 

Still...

 

Yes, Hitler would have committed suicide because he did not want to suffer the same fate as Mussolini. The Allies would have paraded him around in front of the world like a prized pig at the county fair before executing him and desecrating his body like a piece of garbage on the side of the road. 

 

No, Germany would still have been carved up between the Allies like a pie and thus leave it divided until the end of the Cold War and not have its own truly united government until the 1990's.

 

 

 


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Sqn Ldr B #5 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:27 PM

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View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 06 August 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

You do know that the Western Allies agreed to let the Soviets take Berlin as a sign of good will so that they would stay in the war and help with the fight against the Japanese right? (That or my Western Civ 2 teacher was full of s**t)

 

Patton had a come apart about it but his superiors kept him quiet.

 

It worked. The Soviets turned their attention to Occupied China and steamrolled the Japanese there.

 

Still...

 

Yes, Hitler would have committed suicide because he did not want to suffer the same fate as Mussolini. The Allies would have paraded him around in front of the world like a prized pig at the county fair before executing him and desecrating his body like a piece of garbage on the side of the road. 

 

No, Germany would still have been carved up between the Allies like a pie and thus leave it divided until the end of the Cold War and not have its own truly united government until the 1990's.

 

 

 

 

I doubt that the Western allies would have desecrated his body. Yes, he would have been put to death, as he should have been, but I don't think the British, Americans or French would have desecrated his body afterwards. The Russians probably would, they had a lot more personal things against him. You also have to look at the difference between the depiction of Hitler in Western and Russian propaganda. In Britain and the US, Hitler was presented as a funny little man that people made fun of and joked about, whereas in Russia he was presented as a hideous, disfigured, cretinous murderer. His treatment in captivity would be a lot better under the British and Americans than under the Russians. Also, if the Soviets had been held up long enough, and the war kept dragging on in Europe, the Western allies would probably have gone for Berlin if the Russians weren't able to get there.

Edited by Sqn Ldr B, 06 August 2015 - 04:28 PM.

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Sgt Becket FEAR #6 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:33 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

 

I doubt that the Western allies would have desecrated his body. Yes, he would have been put to death, as he should have been, but I don't think the British, Americans or French would have desecrated his body afterwards. The Russians probably would, they had a lot more personal things against him. You also have to look at the difference between the depiction of Hitler in Western and Russian propaganda. In Britain and the US, Hitler was presented as a funny little man that people made fun of and joked about, whereas in Russia he was presented as a hideous, disfigured, cretinous murderer. His treatment in captivity would be a lot better under the British and Americans than under the Russians. Also, if the Soviets had been held up long enough, and the war kept dragging on in Europe, the Western allies would probably have gone for Berlin if the Russians weren't able to get there.

 

Yes, but look at Hermann Goering, the most senior Nazi Party member that was captured and faced trial unlike that coward Heinrich Himmler.

 

Yes, he was treated far better than the Soviets would have treated him but...they still paraded him in front of reporters and then locked him up to await trial. Shame that he committed suicide before his execution. I was very disappointed when I learned that he escaped justice at the eleventh hour even though I was just a child. Such evil cannot go unpunished.


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Sqn Ldr B #7 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:43 PM

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I think parading a criminal in front of reporters is generally what happens anyway. Still better than being beating half to death, starved, tortured, paraded through Red Square, publicly executed, and then desecrated, burned and his bones being taken for souvenirs.

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Sgt Becket FEAR #8 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:46 PM

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Hitler deserved such treatment!

 

I don't like speaking ill of the dead, but sometimes, people deserve it.

 

PEOPLE get punished in a court of law. DOGS get put down.


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Sqn Ldr B #9 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:47 PM

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View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 06 August 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hitler deserved such treatment!

 

I don't like speaking ill of the dead, but sometimes, people deserve it.

 

PEOPLE get punished in court of law. DOGS get put down.

 

Yes, I know Hitler deserved it, but I thought we were talking about whether or not this scenario would influence his decision to commit suicide.

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Sgt Becket FEAR #10 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:56 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

 

Yes, I know Hitler deserved it, but I thought we were talking about whether or not this scenario would influence his decision to commit suicide.

 

We are.

 

You think, after seeing the Death and Labor Camps mere months and days prior, that the Allies would have treated Hitler with respect?

 

You have to remember that the Allied soldiers were young men, boys who lied about their age in some cases. Men like Patton, Eisenhower, and Montgomery were not the ones that would have found Hitler. It would have been the young men...tired from combat...sleep deprived...with blood on their hands...and with the memories of the stench of the camps still burning in their minds that would have found him.

 

You think that they would shown restraint?

 

No.

 

They would have reported that they had "found Hitler's body already beaten to death" when they investigated the bunker. The consensus would have been that, in the eleventh hour, the emotions inside the bunker boiled over and Hitler's Inner Circle turned on him and the Goebbels family before fleeing for their lives.

 

No one would really care about the truth. Dogs. Get. Put. Down.


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Sqn Ldr B #11 Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:58 PM

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If it was me that found Hitler I'd take him prisoner and claim the reward and fame of being the guy that caught Hitler. Just my opinion. He would have been killed one way or another, either suicide, killed by the soldiers or executed.

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Sgt Becket FEAR #12 Posted 06 August 2015 - 05:05 PM

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This is why history is my major :)

 

So many fascinating "What if" scenarios ^_^

 

People find history boring. I find it very interesting.

 

Did you know that when Hitler was in World War 1, before he was gassed and spent months in a hospital, that a British soldier had him dead to rights one day while Hitler was acting as a runner? They know the soldier's name but I cannot remember it off the top of my head. Yeah, the man had his rifle aimed at Hitler and they stared each other down for a moment. If the man had pulled the trigger, the world would be different today. However, at the last second, the soldier let Hitler go.


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Sqn Ldr B #13 Posted 06 August 2015 - 05:24 PM

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I've heard that story. And then Hitler got the Iron Cross for the same message he was running then.

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Sgt Becket FEAR #14 Posted 06 August 2015 - 05:35 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

I've heard that story. And then Hitler got the Iron Cross for the same message he was running then.

 

Yes. The First World War turned men like Patton, Eisenhower, MacArthur, Churchill, Hitler, and Mussolini into men that would change the course of history and the world itself.

 

Such young men...the shadow of WW1 would follow them to the grave. People wanted to move on after the war, but fate had other plans.

 

A reminder of how one event can alter the future and the lives of everyone? I like to think so.


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Uranprojekt #15 Posted 06 August 2015 - 06:16 PM

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Here's the thing, the Allies had promised Berlin to Stalin and and Stalin, in turn, promised Berlin to the Soviet troops and civilians. Had the Allies reached Berlin before the Soviets, do you really think that Zhukov and Konev would have just given up and gone home because the Western Allies had gotten there first?

Not a snowballs chance in hell. This is Soviet Russia we're talking about here, they demanded that the German surrender be redone because the Soviet officer present at the first signing wasn't "of sufficient rank." They'd have gotten their own way by any means and if taking Berlin meant going through the Americans and British, they probably would have done it.

The Soviets suffered more at the hands of the Germans than the Americans, British and French did, they had the bigger score to settle. Berlin was a prize for the Red Army and the Red Army only in the eyes of the Soviets and it was not for sharing.

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Ace Man 7 Delta #16 Posted 06 August 2015 - 06:27 PM

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It would of broken the alliance between the 3 nations. It was decided that the soviets would take berlin in 1944. And churchill & stalin had already unofficially decided who would control what in europe after the war. With the so called "dirty document".
Berlin was the soviets crown jewel. And it was payback time for them. No one was going to stop them.
 
Another good question is what if the soviets made it to japan first. And the bomb was never used. The allies had no real official plans about japan after the war.. And there was a bit of a land grabbing race to japan between the soviets and the U.S..

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Sqn Ldr B #17 Posted 06 August 2015 - 09:39 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 06 August 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Here's the thing, the Allies had promised Berlin to Stalin and and Stalin, in turn, promised Berlin to the Soviet troops and civilians. Had the Allies reached Berlin before the Soviets, do you really think that Zhukov and Konev would have just given up and gone home because the Western Allies had gotten there first?

Not a snowballs chance in hell. This is Soviet Russia we're talking about here, they demanded that the German surrender be redone because the Soviet officer present at the first signing wasn't "of sufficient rank." They'd have gotten their own way by any means and if taking Berlin meant going through the Americans and British, they probably would have done it.

The Soviets suffered more at the hands of the Germans than the Americans, British and French did, they had the bigger score to settle. Berlin was a prize for the Red Army and the Red Army only in the eyes of the Soviets and it was not for sharing.

 

Key phrase in the title being 'what if'. I'm not saying, could the Western allies get their first, I'm saying, what would happen if they did.

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Uranprojekt #18 Posted 06 August 2015 - 09:54 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

 

Key phrase in the title being 'what if'. I'm not saying, could the Western allies get their first, I'm saying, what would happen if they did.

 

And I am answering your "what if" scenario; war happens.

 

I'm also explaining my answer; Zhukov and Konev were tasked by Stalin with taking Berlin at any cost. They even had a contingency plan to block a potential move by the Western Allies to reach Berlin before the Soviets did in the form of the northern pincer of the Soviet forces driving West and then South to cut the approaches to Berlin from the West, a plan which had the added benefit of cutting off any German retreats from Berlin to the West. Had they not been able to put that contingency plan into action (i.e. The Soviets get delayed and the Western Allies reach Berlin first), I highly doubt that Stalin would have allowed Zhukov and Konev to give up. He'd have ordered them into Berlin regardless of who got there first, fighting whoever got in their way.


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Sqn Ldr B #19 Posted 06 August 2015 - 10:05 PM

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View PostAce Man 7 Delta, on 06 August 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

It would of broken the alliance between the 3 nations. It was decided that the soviets would take berlin in 1944. And churchill & stalin had already unofficially decided who would control what in europe after the war. With the so called "dirty document".
Berlin was the soviets crown jewel. And it was payback time for them. No one was going to stop them.
 
Another good question is what if the soviets made it to japan first. And the bomb was never used. The allies had no real official plans about japan after the war.. And there was a bit of a land grabbing race to japan between the soviets and the U.S..

 

Have you seen Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of mainland Japan? It was huge:

Allied Order Of Battle (First Phase)

 

Allied Order Of Battle (Second Phase)

 

Additionally, Downfall was to be the combat debut of the P-80 Shooting Star. The Americans planned the mass use of defoliant (like in Vietnam), and 7 atomic bombs were to be available for the first day alone of the invasion, with a total of 15 for the whole operation. To aid in aerial warfare, Stalin agreed to provide two bases for B-29s in Russia.


Edited by Sqn Ldr B, 06 August 2015 - 10:13 PM.

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Sqn Ldr B #20 Posted 06 August 2015 - 10:07 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 06 August 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

 

And I am answering your "what if" scenario; war happens.

 

I'm also explaining my answer; Zhukov and Konev were tasked by Stalin with taking Berlin at any cost. They even had a contingency plan to block a potential move by the Western Allies to reach Berlin before the Soviets did in the form of the northern pincer of the Soviet forces driving West and then South to cut the approaches to Berlin from the West, a plan which had the added benefit of cutting off any German retreats from Berlin to the West. Had they not been able to put that contingency plan into action (i.e. The Soviets get delayed and the Western Allies reach Berlin first), I highly doubt that Stalin would have allowed Zhukov and Konev to give up. He'd have ordered them into Berlin regardless of who got there first, fighting whoever got in their way.

 

Well, you can always trust the Russians for a bit of sabre-rattling, I wouldn't be surprised if they started another war.

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