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What if-The British and Americans got to Berlin before the Soviets?


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Ace Man 7 Delta #21 Posted 06 August 2015 - 10:16 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

 

Have you seen Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of mainland Japan? It was huge:

Allied Order Of Battle (First Phase)

 

Allied Order Of Battle (Second Phase)

 

 

 

Holy crap makes you wonder if the A bomb was a less lethal solution to the japanese civilian population. 

Could you even imagine all of the casualties on both sides if such a force was unleashed on a civilian population ready to fight to the death?


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Ace Man 7 Delta #22 Posted 06 August 2015 - 10:22 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

 

Well, you can always trust the Russians for a bit of sabre-rattling, I wouldn't be surprised if they started another war.

 

They started the proxy wars.  Korea, vietnam, The U.S. took it upon them selves to enter these conflicts. 


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Sqn Ldr B #23 Posted 06 August 2015 - 10:24 PM

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View PostAce Man 7 Delta, on 06 August 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

 

Holy crap makes you wonder if the A bomb was a less lethal solution to the japanese civilian population. 

Could you even imagine all of the casualties on both sides if such a force was unleashed on a civilian population ready to fight to the death?

 

The Americans could definitely imagine the casualties. You know the Purple Heart Medal, awarded for being wounded in action? The Americans, in anticipation of the casualties, had 500,000 Purple Hearts produced. 500,000! There were so many that they were still being dished out in Iraq and Afghanistan. They still had 120,000 left in 2003.

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Uranprojekt #24 Posted 06 August 2015 - 10:29 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

 

Well, you can always trust the Russians for a bit of sabre-rattling, I wouldn't be surprised if they started another war.

 

Berlin was their promised prize, the Soviets would not have allowed America and Britain to take that from them. It would also give Stalin a lot more political weight to throw around because he was promised Berlin and the promise was broken.

 

As for the rest of your "what if" scenario, Hitler is irrelevant because he dies no matter which way you cut it. Suicide or execution, what happens to Hitler doesn't change and he ends up just as dead. The only difference here is who gets to parade him around like a prized pig and, at the end of the day, that only really serves for the purposes of propaganda.

 

Going on the precedent that the Soviets go to war with the Western Allies over Berlin, Berlin doesn't get carved up at all and whoever wins the war gets Berlin in it's entirety. I'd go as far as to say that whoever wins the war would most likely take Germany completely and there is no East-West divide in the country at all, the divide instead becomes the German border.


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Niles Y93 #25 Posted 06 August 2015 - 11:30 PM

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View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 06 August 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

You do know that the Western Allies agreed to let the Soviets take Berlin as a sign of good will so that they would stay in the war and help with the fight against the Japanese right? (That or my Western Civ 2 teacher was full of s**t)

 

Patton had a come apart about it but his superiors kept him quiet.

 

It worked. The Soviets turned their attention to Occupied China and steamrolled the Japanese there.

 

Still...

 

Yes, Hitler would have committed suicide because he did not want to suffer the same fate as Mussolini. The Allies would have paraded him around in front of the world like a prized pig at the county fair before executing him and desecrating his body like a piece of garbage on the side of the road. 

 

No, Germany would still have been carved up between the Allies like a pie and thus leave it divided until the end of the Cold War and not have its own truly united government until the 1990's.

 

 

 

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

 

I doubt that the Western allies would have desecrated his body. Yes, he would have been put to death, as he should have been, but I don't think the British, Americans or French would have desecrated his body afterwards. The Russians probably would, they had a lot more personal things against him. You also have to look at the difference between the depiction of Hitler in Western and Russian propaganda. In Britain and the US, Hitler was presented as a funny little man that people made fun of and joked about, whereas in Russia he was presented as a hideous, disfigured, cretinous murderer. His treatment in captivity would be a lot better under the British and Americans than under the Russians. Also, if the Soviets had been held up long enough, and the war kept dragging on in Europe, the Western allies would probably have gone for Berlin if the Russians weren't able to get there.

 

View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 06 August 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

 

Yes, but look at Hermann Goering, the most senior Nazi Party member that was captured and faced trial unlike that coward Heinrich Himmler.

 

Yes, he was treated far better than the Soviets would have treated him but...they still paraded him in front of reporters and then locked him up to await trial. Shame that he committed suicide before his execution. I was very disappointed when I learned that he escaped justice at the eleventh hour even though I was just a child. Such evil cannot go unpunished.

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

I think parading a criminal in front of reporters is generally what happens anyway. Still better than being beating half to death, starved, tortured, paraded through Red Square, publicly executed, and then desecrated, burned and his bones being taken for souvenirs.

 

View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 06 August 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Hitler deserved such treatment!

 

I don't like speaking ill of the dead, but sometimes, people deserve it.

 

PEOPLE get punished in a court of law. DOGS get put down.

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

 

Yes, I know Hitler deserved it, but I thought we were talking about whether or not this scenario would influence his decision to commit suicide.

 

View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 06 August 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

 

We are.

 

You think, after seeing the Death and Labor Camps mere months and days prior, that the Allies would have treated Hitler with respect?

 

You have to remember that the Allied soldiers were young men, boys who lied about their age in some cases. Men like Patton, Eisenhower, and Montgomery were not the ones that would have found Hitler. It would have been the young men...tired from combat...sleep deprived...with blood on their hands...and with the memories of the stench of the camps still burning in their minds that would have found him.

 

You think that they would shown restraint?

 

No.

 

They would have reported that they had "found Hitler's body already beaten to death" when they investigated the bunker. The consensus would have been that, in the eleventh hour, the emotions inside the bunker boiled over and Hitler's Inner Circle turned on him and the Goebbels family before fleeing for their lives.

 

No one would really care about the truth. Dogs. Get. Put. Down.

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

If it was me that found Hitler I'd take him prisoner and claim the reward and fame of being the guy that caught Hitler. Just my opinion. He would have been killed one way or another, either suicide, killed by the soldiers or executed.

 

I apologize but I really felt like saying something. If Hitler was captured by the Allies, he would stand trial. The reason I say that is because we would want to show the world that while we caught the most hated and sought after man in the world, we were not like him and his fascist thugs and we would let justice prevail.

 

However, I also bring up another theory. If Hitler was capture alive, there would still be a war between the Allies and Soviets. Why? Because Stalin would want Hitler so badly. We would try to keep him to stand trial but Stalin would want him just to straight up execute or lock away in a secret gulag (see the book The Berkut). The Allies would want him to stand trial under the laws but, knowing Stalin and the Soviet depiction of Hitler, would it be surprising that Stalin would declare war on the Allies over one man?



Matthew J35U5 #26 Posted 07 August 2015 - 04:24 AM

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View PostAce Man 7 Delta, on 06 August 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

 

They started the proxy wars.  Korea, vietnam, The U.S. took it upon them selves to enter these conflicts. 

That's rather oversimplifying the Vietnam war. 

View PostNiles Y93, on 06 August 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

However, I also bring up another theory. If Hitler was capture alive, there would still be a war between the Allies and Soviets. Why? Because Stalin would want Hitler so badly. We would try to keep him to stand trial but Stalin would want him just to straight up execute or lock away in a secret gulag (see the book The Berkut). The Allies would want him to stand trial under the laws but, knowing Stalin and the Soviet depiction of Hitler, would it be surprising that Stalin would declare war on the Allies over one man?

Uh yeah, it would be pretty surprising for the Soviets to declare war on the allies over one man. Because the people in charge of the Soviet Union were actually pretty smart and aren't going to plunge themselves into another war that at best would be long and bloody, and at worst would end in complete defeat. Especially not when the supposed goal is to... do what exactly? Execute Hitler without a trial instead of with a trial?

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 August 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

What do you think would have happened if, for some reason, the Soviets' advance across Eastern Europe was halted, or slowed down, and the British, Commonwealth and American forces had got to Berlin before them? Would Hitler still have chosen to kill himself? Would the division of Germany post-war have been any different? What do you all think?

The allies made an agreement with the Soviet Union about the post-war division of Europe, and for better or for worse, they intended to stick to that agreement. The post-war borders would not change. In all likelihood, the allies would have let the Soviets take Berlin even if they had been delayed, as the allied high command did not consider Berlin to be an important objective. The Soviets wanted Berlin, and they were going to get it. 

I'm also rather curious at how exactly the Soviets would have been stopped or slowed down by what was left of the Wehrmacht.


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Metalrodent #27 Posted 07 August 2015 - 07:19 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 07 August 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

I'm also rather curious at how exactly the Soviets would have been stopped or slowed down by what was left of the Wehrmacht.

Had Hitler bought back the thousands of troops station in Norway that could have slowed things down a bit, still not a game changer though.

 

 


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Sqn Ldr B #28 Posted 07 August 2015 - 09:02 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 07 August 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

I'm also rather curious at how exactly the Soviets would have been stopped or slowed down by what was left of the Wehrmacht.

How about these eventualities? German troops withdrawn from Norway. German troops withdrawn from Italy. German development of the atomic bomb. Some kind of civil unrest/revolution in Russia. Red Army mutiny. Perhaps even some military support from Japan.


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Matthew J35U5 #29 Posted 07 August 2015 - 12:02 PM

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View PostMetalrodent, on 07 August 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

View PostMatthew J35U5, on 07 August 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

I'm also rather curious at how exactly the Soviets would have been stopped or slowed down by what was left of the Wehrmacht.

Had Hitler bought back the thousands of troops station in Norway that could have slowed things down a bit, still not a game changer though.

 

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 07 August 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

View PostMatthew J35U5, on 07 August 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

I'm also rather curious at how exactly the Soviets would have been stopped or slowed down by what was left of the Wehrmacht.

How about these eventualities? German troops withdrawn from Norway. German troops withdrawn from Italy. German development of the atomic bomb. Some kind of civil unrest/revolution in Russia. Red Army mutiny. Perhaps even some military support from Japan.

A few thousand troops would have very little impact. 
Germany developing an atomic bomb is literally a pipe dream.
Why would there suddenly be civil unrest/mutiny when victory is almost achieved when there was none when the country was almost defeated? Victory after victory doesn't exactly inspire discontent. 

The Japanese don't seem that suicidal that they would enter a war against the Soviet Union to support an ally that is months away from collapse, and will collapse even if the Soviet Union was distracted. 

Many of these scenarios that explain the improbable situation of the Soviet Union's overwhelming advance being checked seem to further multiply the improbabilities. It would probably be more productive to just find ways to speed the western allies up, for instance if all of the German units in the west surrendered, allowing the Americans to advance straight to Berlin without fighting. 



GroomingChief65 #30 Posted 07 August 2015 - 10:49 PM

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As for suicide, in any scenario where Hitler loses the war I believe suicide was inevitable. I recall reading that it would be 'a relief for him and I never get the sense in anything I've read that he feared it at all. If he couldn't have the world his way then living on in defeat was unthinkable. If Russia had stalled out in their advance on Berlin I don't see it being divided, the US would've had it all intact IMO.  Seems to me Patton didn't want to stop there, he wanted to turn on the Russians and steamroll what was left of them, and after 20 million dead on the Russian side I can see how it would've been entirely possible for him.

Edited by GroomingChief65, 07 August 2015 - 10:50 PM.


GLA Odin #31 Posted 08 August 2015 - 12:31 AM

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View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 06 August 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

This is why history is my major :)

 

So many fascinating "What if" scenarios ^_^

 

People find history boring. I find it very interesting.

 

Did you know that when Hitler was in World War 1, before he was gassed and spent months in a hospital, that a British soldier had him dead to rights one day while Hitler was acting as a runner? They know the soldier's name but I cannot remember it off the top of my head. Yeah, the man had his rifle aimed at Hitler and they stared each other down for a moment. If the man had pulled the trigger, the world would be different today. However, at the last second, the soldier let Hitler go.

Didn't Hitler have a painting of said british soldier in his office, and someone interviewed him about that picture and he said something, but i can't remember the exact words.


 

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GLA Odin #32 Posted 08 August 2015 - 12:34 AM

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Even if the Allied forces had reached Berlin before the Soviets, I think the Soviets would back down since the USA was developing Atomic technology at the time, I'm pretty sure that Winston Churchill had a plan to start a war with the soviets if they went past Germany etc. i'm still learning this at school and at home, the Eastern front interests me more i guess.
 

 

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Matthew J35U5 #33 Posted 08 August 2015 - 02:20 AM

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View PostGroomingChief65, on 07 August 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

As for suicide, in any scenario where Hitler loses the war I believe suicide was inevitable. I recall reading that it would be 'a relief for him and I never get the sense in anything I've read that he feared it at all. If he couldn't have the world his way then living on in defeat was unthinkable. If Russia had stalled out in their advance on Berlin I don't see it being divided, the US would've had it all intact IMO.  Seems to me Patton didn't want to stop there, he wanted to turn on the Russians and steamroll what was left of them, and after 20 million dead on the Russian side I can see how it would've been entirely possible for him.

With an army that outnumbered the western allies 2:1, I can see how Patton would have ended up a POW if he tried. Or dead. 

View PostRFA Scottish, on 07 August 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Even if the Allied forces had reached Berlin before the Soviets, I think the Soviets would back down since the USA was developing Atomic technology at the time, I'm pretty sure that Winston Churchill had a plan to start a war with the soviets if they went past Germany etc. i'm still learning this at school and at home, the Eastern front interests me more i guess.

Churchill requested his generals create a plan for removing the Soviets from eastern Europe. (i.e. Poland, Czechoslovakia, hungary, etc) His generals were rather unenthusiastic at the prospect. It was not a workable plan. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Uranprojekt #34 Posted 08 August 2015 - 02:52 AM

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View PostRFA Scottish, on 08 August 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

Even if the Allied forces had reached Berlin before the Soviets, I think the Soviets would back down since the USA was developing Atomic technology at the time, I'm pretty sure that Winston Churchill had a plan to start a war with the soviets if they went past Germany etc. i'm still learning this at school and at home, the Eastern front interests me more i guess.
 

 

Thanks to atomic spies like Klaus Fuchs, the Soviets knew a great deal about the research being done as part of the Manhattan Project. The bombs were still in the process of being built and tested in late April 1945 and the Soviets would have been aware of this. The Soviets also would have been aware that the Red Army in Europe outnumbered the American and British forces in Europe. The Soviets charged across Manchuria, an area in Northern China the size of Germany and Italy combined, in 24 days so I'd wager that they could drive the Western Allies out of Germany just as fast. The Soviets had time on their side because building an atomic bomb is a long and laborious process, there's a lot than go wrong so it can't be rushed.

 

I also wouldn't put a lot of faith in the military planning of Winston Churchill. I'll just say Gallipoli and leave it at that.


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Sqn Ldr B #35 Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:20 AM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 08 August 2015 - 02:52 AM, said:

 

Thanks to atomic spies like Klaus Fuchs, the Soviets knew a great deal about the research being done as part of the Manhattan Project. The bombs were still in the process of being built and tested in late April 1945 and the Soviets would have been aware of this. The Soviets also would have been aware that the Red Army in Europe outnumbered the American and British forces in Europe. The Soviets charged across Manchuria, an area in Northern China the size of Germany and Italy combined, in 24 days so I'd wager that they could drive the Western Allies out of Germany just as fast. The Soviets had time on their side because building an atomic bomb is a long and laborious process, there's a lot than go wrong so it can't be rushed.

 

I also wouldn't put a lot of faith in the military planning of Winston Churchill. I'll just say Gallipoli and leave it at that.

 

While Gallipoli was a horrible failure, it was probably Churchill's only huge military failure. He organised the defence of Rotterdam in the First World War, and personally led his troops as a colonel on the western front. And don't forget Mers-El-Kebir. It wasn't politically correct but it made sense, and probably did stop the French fleet being captured.

Edited by Sqn Ldr B, 08 August 2015 - 08:21 AM.

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GroomingChief65 #36 Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:44 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 07 August 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

With an army that outnumbered the western allies 2:1, I can see how Patton would have ended up a POW if he tried. Or dead.

Churchill requested his generals create a plan for removing the Soviets from eastern Europe. (i.e. Poland, Czechoslovakia, hungary, etc) His generals were rather unenthusiastic at the prospect. It was not a workable plan.

 

 

 

It's possible I'm underestimating the Russian capabilities at the end of the war. It only seems logical to me at the end of the war we're at a point where the Americans are coming in fresh and Russia is down 20 million, if the Americans couldn't do it then I'd be pretty surprised. Wasn't the US supplying the Russians?  So all of those supplies are cut and the US air power begins to pound the Russian lines, it's hard for me to see Russia holding the line against the US forces at the close of the war, this would've just been a very opportune time and Patton recognized that.


Edited by GroomingChief65, 08 August 2015 - 03:45 PM.


Matthew J35U5 #37 Posted 08 August 2015 - 05:15 PM

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There would be no holding the line, there would be a wave of angry russians sweeping the western allies into the sea. The Soviets held a huge numeric advantage, and were rather more adept at this point than the Americans and british. In the extreme long view, America could probably win a war against the Soviets, but they would need to do it without any of the forces in europe at the start of such a war.

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 08 August 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

There would be no holding the line, there would be a wave of angry russians sweeping the western allies into the sea. The Soviets held a huge numeric advantage, and were rather more adept at this point than the Americans and british. In the extreme long view, America could probably win a war against the Soviets, but they would need to do it without any of the forces in europe at the start of such a war.

 

I agree... All of the western allies never trusted stalin.. But none of them would have dared to try to stop him by 1944.. 
The soviet steamroller was feared by all.  So much so that the western allies said nothing to stalin when he failed to help poland during there up rising against the german army.. 
He just sat outside of polands borders and let the german army do his work for him.  He was not interested in poland becoming a democratic country. And never came to the aid of the polish government exiled in england. As he said he would.  And no one ever pressured him about it.  The western allies did not want a conflict with the soviets by this time..  They had seen first hand the industrial force and the almost unlimited man power the soviets had by 1944..  

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GroomingChief65 #39 Posted 09 August 2015 - 01:21 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 08 August 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

There would be no holding the line, there would be a wave of angry russians sweeping the western allies into the sea. The Soviets held a huge numeric advantage, and were rather more adept at this point than the Americans and british. In the extreme long view, America could probably win a war against the Soviets, but they would need to do it without any of the forces in europe at the start of such a war.

 

Superior numbers don't mean much when your factories are being carpet bombed every night and the food you're being sent as charity gets cut off.

Matthew J35U5 #40 Posted 09 August 2015 - 01:37 AM

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View PostGroomingChief65, on 08 August 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

 

Superior numbers don't mean much when your factories are being carpet bombed every night and the food you're being sent as charity gets cut off.

 

It might not mean much eventually, but "eventually" isn't going to stop the red army from pushing the western allies into the sea. "Eventually", 1940's America could win a war against anyone because they were the most powerful industrial nation in the world (about as powerful as the USSR, Germany and Britain combined), with the manpower to field an army large enough to beat anyone. That still isn't going to stop the Red Army, which outnumbers the western allies better than 3:1, from crushing their armies in europe. 

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