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Alternate History - What if the Germans conquered the Soviet Union?

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GLA Odin #1 Posted 08 August 2015 - 12:40 AM

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So, what if the Mighty Soviet union wasn't able to push back the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe, and fell to the Germans, Panzer IIIs patrolling the Red Square etc.

 

I'm not a history teacher, but i'm extremely interested in this subject, so what if?

 

I think that Germany would've helped Japan overtake China, and then the Pacifc, Maybe Australia, which would probably make America help out the Commonwealth forces more, which might allow another Operation Seelowe, but with the help of the IJN.. just an idea, so whatever.


 

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CodeName 889 #2 Posted 08 August 2015 - 01:04 AM

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The real question is what if they won the war and conquered the world?:ohmy:

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I3iggus Nickus #3 Posted 08 August 2015 - 01:05 AM

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Legendary2K2005 #4 Posted 08 August 2015 - 01:23 AM

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With the USSR under German control, the Japanese could've brought back some of its defenders and instead used them to win decisive victories in the Coral Sea and Kokoda. The Japanese would've probably just bypassed the Australia and New Zealand, putting pressure on the USA - meaning that the USA would've withdrawn some of its units from Europe and the Middle East, meaning that the Middle Eastern front could've been lost and that D-Day might not have been a success. With the influx of troops from the Eastern Front (Russia) that supports the Middle Eastern front as well as the European front, the Afrika Corps would've been victorious, which then results in the eventual invasion of Britain. As soon as Britain gets invaded, the USA would probably attempt to reinforce the Brits, and maybe be able to repel the attack, probably extending the war by a few years. Germany and the USA would both race to cracking the atom during the stalemate, and whoever got it first would mass-produce it and start a nuclear war. Just my two cents, its alternate history so I'm allowed to think of the impossible :teethhappy:

 

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CodeName 889 #5 Posted 08 August 2015 - 01:24 AM

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View PostLegendary2K2005, on 07 August 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

With the USSR under German control, the Japanese could've brought back some of its defenders and instead used them to win decisive victories in the Coral Sea and Kokoda. The Japanese would've probably just bypassed the Australia and New Zealand, putting pressure on the USA - meaning that the USA would've withdrawn some of its units from Europe and the Middle East, meaning that the Middle Eastern front could've been lost and that D-Day might not have been a success. With the influx of troops from the Eastern Front (Russia) that supports the Middle Eastern front as well as the European front, the Afrika Corps would've been victorious, which then results in the eventual invasion of Britain. As soon as Britain gets invaded, the USA would probably attempt to reinforce the Brits, and maybe be able to repel the attack, probably extending the war by a few years. Germany and the USA would both race to cracking the atom during the stalemate, and whoever got it first would mass-produce it and start a nuclear war. Just my two cents, its alternate history so I'm allowed to think of the impossible :teethhappy:

 

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GroomingChief65 #6 Posted 08 August 2015 - 01:26 AM

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View PostCodeName 889, on 07 August 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

The real question is what if they won the war and conquered the world?:ohmy:

 

  I don't think any of us have the full imagination for that.  I suppose the basics would be eugenics ramps up globally, lots of genetic research, race laws in place through occupied territory. In a place like like the USA you'd probably see slavery again, think I read Hitler believed the South losing the civil war was unfortunate. You would see slave labor on a more global scale I would guess, the old empires had slaves, he wasn't beyond that. You would see technology advance similarly I mean von Braun got us on the moon. I don't know we'd see iphones and xbox, agrarian lifestyles were seen in a very positive light by Himmler. Farming, warfare and trying to advance the race genetically, things like that were high priority.  

Edited by GroomingChief65, 08 August 2015 - 01:26 AM.


CodeName 889 #7 Posted 08 August 2015 - 01:28 AM

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View PostGroomingChief65, on 07 August 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

 

  I don't think any of us have the full imagination for that.  I suppose the basics would be eugenics ramps up globally, lots of genetic research, race laws in place through occupied territory. In a place like like the USA you'd probably see slavery again, think I read Hitler believed the South losing the civil war was unfortunate. You would see slave labor on a more global scale I would guess, the old empires had slaves, he wasn't beyond that. You would see technology advance similarly I mean von Braun got us on the moon. I don't know we'd see iphones and xbox, agrarian lifestyles were seen in a very positive light by Himmler. Farming, warfare and trying to advance the race genetically, things like that were high priority.  

Good post, I guess you are right, you missed one thing though, we might all be speaking and typing german.... maybe


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Matthew J35U5 #8 Posted 08 August 2015 - 02:14 AM

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The Nazis would then use their advanced alien technology to conquer the world, end poverty, scarcity and death. They would then colonize the galaxy. 

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Uranprojekt #9 Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:26 AM

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You all seem to be putting an awful lot of faith in the abilities of the Germany army to hold the territory they gained in this scenario. Conquering a country is one thing, holding it is another. Even if the Germans didn't advance any further than Moscow, which was the plan, they'd still have to commit a vast amount of resources and manpower to keep the local populace in check. A local populace, I might add, that wasn't too happy about being brutalised by their "liberators" and numbered in the millions. You also have to consider, if we continue with the idea that the Germans stop at Moscow and don't venture further east, that the Soviets still had a huge number of reserves in the east. With the Germans stopping at Moscow, they'd be creating a border that would have to be defended and that's no small task. We're talking about entire divisions being swallowed up to both keep the peace and patrol a border that spans from the Black Sea to the Arctic Ocean.

It's all well and good thinking up these fanciful notions that the Germans could conquer the USSR, continue fighting in North Africa, assist the Japanese in China (even though the Germans weren't actually obliged to do such a thing although we'll gloss over that) and invade Britain all at the same time but nobody seems to be stopping to consider just how much of a logistical nightmare this would be for Germany.

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Ace Man 7 Delta #10 Posted 08 August 2015 - 05:12 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 07 August 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

The Nazis would then use their advanced alien technology to conquer the world, end poverty, scarcity and death. They would then colonize the galaxy. 

 

L M A O I think I have seen the ancient aliens documentary on this..  True story.
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Ace Man 7 Delta #11 Posted 08 August 2015 - 05:38 AM

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If they had succeeded with the invasion of the Soviet Union..  They would had an even bigger problem with trying to secure there own borders. And it would have been almost impossible to keep up the war with the U.S. England & the other allied countries.  Seeing how the occupation of France and the low countries was already draining them. I can't see them being able to occupy all that area and still fight a war on the same scale with all of the allied nations.
And since Russia was always Hitler's goal and his perceived enemy. He may of tried to sue for peace. By offering France and Belgium as a bargaining chip..
It's hard to say what might of happened.  Taking land is one thing but the occupation of that land is a whole different thing.
Uranprojekt is right on the money.. plus 1
 
 

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NSW Mntd Rifles #12 Posted 08 August 2015 - 06:57 AM

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Do you guys understand how much of the Soviet Union was east of Moscow? The Wehrmacht could barely maintain supply lines in the limited territory they occupied, let alone possess the capability to capture territory beyond Moscow. If you want to postulate things like this take some time to read Clausewitz On War. He had the whole thing summed up when he published this book in the 1820s. Apparently Hitler and his stooges were too dumb to read that Prussian General's work.

 

An interesting alternate postulation might be: 'What if Churchill had not sent troops to Greece in early 1941, thereby forcing a German invasion of Yugoslavia & Greece?" This delayed the attack on the USSR and Hitler argued that it was the principal reason for the failure of the Soviet campaign.



Sqn Ldr B #13 Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:22 AM

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Perhaps some kind of joint German/Japanese thrust south through China, from Russia, and into India through the north.

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Legendary2K2005 #14 Posted 08 August 2015 - 09:20 AM

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View PostJose the Padre, on 08 August 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Do you guys understand how much of the Soviet Union was east of Moscow? The Wehrmacht could barely maintain supply lines in the limited territory they occupied, let alone possess the capability to capture territory beyond Moscow. If you want to postulate things like this take some time to read Clausewitz On War. He had the whole thing summed up when he published this book in the 1820s. Apparently Hitler and his stooges were too dumb to read that Prussian General's work.

 

An interesting alternate postulation might be: 'What if Churchill had not sent troops to Greece in early 1941, thereby forcing a German invasion of Yugoslavia & Greece?" This delayed the attack on the USSR and Hitler argued that it was the principal reason for the failure of the Soviet campaign.

 

The Russians had plans drawn to invade Yugoslavia/Greece, and then through Germany and eventually right into France. Weather the Russians could pull off going through Germany with their inferior arms is another topic by itself though.

 

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RPGStylee #15 Posted 08 August 2015 - 10:31 AM

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The only way I see the Nazis getting control of Russia is if the Russians repeatedly make mistakes over and over, but they would have to be really really drunk for that to happen.

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Sqn Ldr B #16 Posted 08 August 2015 - 10:31 AM

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View PostRPGStylee, on 08 August 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

The only way I see the Nazis getting control of Russia is if the Russians repeatedly make mistakes over and over, but they would have to be really really drunk for that to happen.

 

Should be perfectly possible then.

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RPGStylee #17 Posted 08 August 2015 - 10:36 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 08 August 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

 

Should be perfectly possible then.

 

Nah they burnt all the wheat fields so stocks are low.

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Legendary2K2005 #18 Posted 08 August 2015 - 10:37 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 08 August 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

 

Should be perfectly possible then.

 

The stereotypical Russian in WW2 is pushing the Germans back with one hand and drinking Vodka with the other - so if they were to make mistakes, you need to take away the vodka, and have them sober! :teethhappy:

 

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GroomingChief65 #19 Posted 08 August 2015 - 12:55 PM

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The point about logistics in Russia is well-taken. I don't know that I've ever read about any interest in holding territory past Moscow at a certain point in the advance if you destroy the arms factories in the Urals there's nothing left there but Yurts -- from my understanding Ukraine was the prize for the vast farmland and the other prize would be the oil fields at Baku, holding those prizes long-term was key and the rest of it probably didn't mean much to the Reich geopolitically.  The opinion seems to be out here Russia was not close to falling at any point and Hitler was militarily stupid. I'm not sure I'd buy into that when the 2nd Panzer Division was less then 10km from the center of Moscow and allegedly could see the domes of the Kremlin in the distance. IMO you're probably doing an awful lot right militarily when at one point the map looks like this:  http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/map.cfm?map_id=2886   Then again Hitler doesn't place a priority on taking Moscow but turns attention to Kiev before coming back to Moscow in earnest, this was after Stalin had evacuated the Kremlin and moved the entire government out of there fully expecting it to fall. On the subject of holding territory I think with most of Russia it could be done. Germany would've likely destroyed the ability for Russia to produce arms, after that some resistance would remain from some quarters but it would be dealt with. Ukrainians would have largely fallen into line, better to look at it the other way, consider Ukraine was Russian occupied territory, they would've had to hold that and they wouldn't be able to, you see it even today as continued from the war, Putin and company are calling the Ukrainian government fascists, they know which side they were on during the war, there is no love between these two.  

Matthew J35U5 #20 Posted 08 August 2015 - 05:44 PM

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I think Ukraine was trying quite hard to be on Ukraine's side.

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