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Alternate History - What if the Germans conquered the Soviet Union?

Alternate History Stalingrad Leningrad Volga 1941 Operation Barbarossa

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Tiberius67 #41 Posted 16 August 2015 - 08:35 PM

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View PostDStegCat, on 11 August 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Close counts with horseshoes and hand grenades.  Read about Stalin's actions during panicked defense of Moscow.  Explain the heading to his Dachau.

 

Conquer is one thing control is another.  How many divisions would it take?

 

    A much more likely scenario is a negotiated peace between Germany and Russia where Germany got much of the East (at least till next conflict). Both Hitler and Stalin sent feelers for negotiated peace but at different times towards unreceptive opponents.

 

 

 

You mean when he headed to his Dacha for a couple weeks after the invasion began? That was a loyalty test for his subordinates...basically he was judging how secure his grip was on the levers of power in light of being caught with his pants down. Anyone foolish enough to try to step into the "leadership vacuum" and start acting on their own initiative would have been speedily arrested and shot. Once it became clear to him that his underlings were still properly afraid of him, he resumed his normal schedule.  

 

As far as timing....some historians believe that Stalin was preparing a Fall Offensive of his own, which became a problem when the German attack caught them assembling in their forward staging areas.



Matthew J35U5 #42 Posted 16 August 2015 - 11:32 PM

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View PostTiberius67, on 16 August 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

 

You mean when he headed to his Dacha for a couple weeks after the invasion began? That was a loyalty test for his subordinates...basically he was judging how secure his grip was on the levers of power in light of being caught with his pants down. Anyone foolish enough to try to step into the "leadership vacuum" and start acting on their own initiative would have been speedily arrested and shot. Once it became clear to him that his underlings were still properly afraid of him, he resumed his normal schedule.  

 

As far as timing....some historians believe that Stalin was preparing a Fall Offensive of his own, which became a problem when the German attack caught them assembling in their forward staging areas.

 

"Historians" is a rather generous way of describing them. The red army in 1941 was not remotely prepared for war, an offensive in the fall would have been a disaster. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Sqn Ldr B #43 Posted 17 August 2015 - 09:55 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 16 August 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

 

"Historians" is a rather generous way of describing them. The red army in 1941 was not remotely prepared for war, an offensive in the fall would have been a disaster. 

 

I suppose you know who these ''some historians'' are?

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Matthew J35U5 #44 Posted 17 August 2015 - 11:54 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 17 August 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

 

I suppose you know who these ''some historians'' are?

 

I know the most prominent is Viktor Rezun, who is a fraud trying to make money off of anti-communist sentiment following the collapse of the Soviet Union. "Historian" is a very generous way to describe him. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Sqn Ldr B #45 Posted 17 August 2015 - 12:31 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 17 August 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

 

I know the most prominent is Viktor Rezun, who is a fraud trying to make money off of anti-communist sentiment following the collapse of the Soviet Union. "Historian" is a very generous way to describe him. 

 

Yes, well ''some'' generally denotes the presence of more than one.

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Uranprojekt #46 Posted 17 August 2015 - 09:11 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 17 August 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

 

Yes, well ''some'' generally denotes the presence of more than one.

 

"Some" always denotes an unspecified amount or number of things because that's what the word means. "Some" could actually just be one because it's unspecified how many there are. Yes, it also means more than one but, as nobody has actually mentioned how many historians are in question here, "some" can be used to refer to just one historian.

 

I'm almost certain that Matthew, should he set about such a task, could find more historians. He does specifically say, however, that the historian he mentioned was the most prominent, not that this particular historian is the only one relevant to point being made.


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I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

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NSW Mntd Rifles #47 Posted 17 August 2015 - 09:24 PM

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Regardless of anything else. How can anyone resist the March of the Soviet Tankists! https://www.youtube....h?v=RQaSqocJWK8

Edited by Jose the Padre, 17 August 2015 - 09:34 PM.


Sqn Ldr B #48 Posted 17 August 2015 - 09:47 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 17 August 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

"Some" always denotes an unspecified amount or number of things because that's what the word means. "Some" could actually just be one because it's unspecified how many there are. Yes, it also means more than one but, as nobody has actually mentioned how many historians are in question here, "some" can be used to refer to just one historian.

Might I also point out the use of the plural, 'historians' as opposed to the singular 'historian' kind of gives the impression there are more than one.


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Matthew J35U5 #49 Posted 18 August 2015 - 12:30 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 17 August 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

Might I also point out the use of the plural, 'historians' as opposed to the singular 'historian' kind of gives the impression there are more than one.

 

What do you want? The biographies of every historian that has ever suggested that the Russians were planning an attack on the Germans in 1941? Do it yourself. You asked a question, which I answered, to be met with nothing but more questions. 
 
Spoiler

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Uranprojekt #50 Posted 18 August 2015 - 03:44 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 17 August 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

Might I also point out the use of the plural, 'historians' as opposed to the singular 'historian' kind of gives the impression there are more than one.

 

So let's say Matthew goes ahead and names one more historian which satisfies the plural bit. Will you accept that?

 

I'd wager on probably not except I'm not a betting man. How many historians need to be named here before this can be put out to pasture?


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


Sqn Ldr B #51 Posted 18 August 2015 - 08:08 AM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 18 August 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

 

So let's say Matthew goes ahead and names one more historian which satisfies the plural bit. Will you accept that?

 

I'd wager on probably not except I'm not a betting man. How many historians need to be named here before this can be put out to pasture?

 

No, I'd accept that. :P

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Oojamaflip #52 Posted 18 August 2015 - 08:25 AM

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another question that should be asked.....what if..britian allowed Germany its free hand in Europe and we kept the empire...hitler kept his promise...

Sqn Ldr B #53 Posted 18 August 2015 - 08:26 AM

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Who are you? Some kind of imposter?

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Oojamaflip #54 Posted 18 August 2015 - 09:12 AM

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was going to ask the same thing......you have copied my avatar....

Sqn Ldr B #55 Posted 18 August 2015 - 11:06 AM

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I was here before you. :P

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Legendary2K2005 #56 Posted 18 August 2015 - 11:50 AM

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My head hurts, which one is which...

 

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Sqn Ldr B #57 Posted 18 August 2015 - 12:26 PM

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View PostLegendary2K2005, on 18 August 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

My head hurts, which one is which...

 

I'm the one with more posts, the cool signature, Churchill quotes and a sarcastic demeanour.

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Matthew J35U5 #58 Posted 18 August 2015 - 01:05 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 17 August 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

 

So let's say Matthew goes ahead and names one more historian which satisfies the plural bit. Will you accept that?

 

I'd wager on probably not except I'm not a betting man. How many historians need to be named here before this can be put out to pasture?

I never even said "some historians". I said the thesis espoused by the historians referred to by a poster I quoted was wrong, and thus "historian" was a generous term for them. Then I get interrogated about who they are. >.>

I believe that John Mosier also claims that Stalin was planning an invasion of eastern europe in 1941, though I'm not even sure that counts as his "evidence" is incredibly sketchy. 

 

Spoiler

 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Banshee Bear #59 Posted 22 August 2015 - 11:05 PM

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View PostLegendary2K2005, on 08 August 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

 

The Russians had plans drawn to invade Yugoslavia/Greece, and then through Germany and eventually right into France. Weather the Russians could pull off going through Germany with their inferior arms is another topic by itself though.

 

i'd guess - on not a great deal, mind you - that the russians would have naively assumed that plan would be assisted by the grateful peasantry whereas the germans assumed their plan assisted by grateful settler-germans ploughing the bones of the peasantry into the fields.

"Woe to him whom they should smite, woe to him at whom they shall be flung, against whom they shall be cast; they will be instruments of oppression.

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