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Why the Battle of Britain was the most important point in the Second World War.


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Matthew J35U5 #141 Posted 27 October 2015 - 03:46 AM

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View PostWidowMaker1711, on 26 October 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

 

Look at the Graf Spee. Completely out armoured, outranged and outgunned the Falkland based force led by HMS Ajax (pronounced as if you were saying A Jacks) but still took a thumping.

 

Your example of armour being irrelevant is an armoured cruiser engaging smaller ships, and being basically undamaged in terms of immediate combat effectiveness? (Outside of being out of ammunition). How is this supposed to support your argument that Bismark being crippled by a ship 15 years older than it is not a failing?

Graf Spee fights inferior opponents--> Graf Spee still combat effective
Bismark fights (supposedly) inferior opponents--> Completely crippled by them. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


WidowMaker1711 #142 Posted 27 October 2015 - 04:13 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 27 October 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

 

Your example of armour being irrelevant is an armoured cruiser engaging smaller ships, and being basically undamaged in terms of immediate combat effectiveness? (Outside of being out of ammunition). How is this supposed to support your argument that Bismark being crippled by a ship 15 years older than it is not a failing?

Graf Spee fights inferior opponents--> Graf Spee still combat effective
Bismark fights (supposedly) inferior opponents--> Completely crippled by them. 

 

Pocket Battleship. I was just pointing out that it doesnt matter how modern a vessel was when it comes down to it.

 

Its not actually possible to compare the battles to sink the Bismarck and the Graf Spee. One was a proper naval battle with only spotter aircraft the other was the first tolling of the bell for the end of the large turreted battleship and the rise of the escorted carrier force.

 

Luckily we dont have to get into the Prinz Eugen or Tirpitz.


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Sqn Ldr B #143 Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:44 AM

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View PostBlack Duke 008, on 27 October 2015 - 02:52 AM, said:

 

Yes, I am!... :B   I also know ALOT more about history then Sqn Ldr B...

 

No you don't. Who was the king of England at the time of the Battle of Agincourt? Who was the British prime minister in the first stages of the First World War? Which British politician beat Churchill in the 1945 election?


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Uranprojekt #144 Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:22 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 27 October 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

No you don't. Who was the king of England at the time of the Battle of Agincourt? Who was the British prime minister in the first stages of the First World War? Which British politician beat Churchill in the 1945 election?

 

Those are all easy to google, if you're going down the history quiz route then you really want to ask questions that have incredibly obscure answers (which you know to be irrefutably true). Something like "what was the nickname for the Pz. I tanks that served in the 3rd Panzer Division which were sent to Spain prior to WWII and why were they called that?"

 

Spoiler

 


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Sqn Ldr B #145 Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:26 AM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 27 October 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

 

Those are all easy to google, if you're going down the history quiz route then you really want to ask questions that have incredibly obscure answers (which you know to be irrefutably true). Something like "what was the nickname for the Pz. I tanks that served in the 3rd Panzer Division which were sent to Spain prior to WWII and why were they called that?"

 

Spoiler

 

 

I know they're easy to google, but I'll be able to tell if he's looked it up because if he has the answer will be coherent. If he hasn't looked it up and actually knows the answer then it'll be in his usual barely-legible style.

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Uranprojekt #146 Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:29 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 27 October 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

 

I know they're easy to google, but I'll be able to tell if he's looked it up because if he has the answer will be coherent. If he hasn't looked it up and actually knows the answer then it'll be in his usual barely-legible style.

 

That's if he plays along. He might decide to not play along because he might "embarrass" you (I'm trying to imagine how he'd phrase it).


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


Sqn Ldr B #147 Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:33 AM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 27 October 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

 

That's if he plays along. He might decide to not play along because he might "embarrass" you (I'm trying to imagine how he'd phrase it).

 

I think it'd go like this:

 

I'm... :coin:

 

not...:izmena:

 

going...:honoring:

 

to...:)

 

answer...:justwait:

 

because...:amazed:

 

I...:angry:

 

might...:hiding:

 

embarrass...:bajan:

 

you...:deer:


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Uranprojekt #148 Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:34 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 27 October 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

 

I think it'd go like this:

 

I'm... :coin:

 

not...:izmena:

 

going...:honoring:

 

to...:)

 

answer...:justwait:

 

because...:amazed:

 

I...:angry:

 

might...:hiding:

 

embarrass...:bajan:

 

you...:deer:

 

Yeah, that looks about right.


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


Black Duke 008 #149 Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:55 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 27 October 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

No you don't. Who was the king of England at the time of the Battle of Agincourt? Who was the British prime minister in the first stages of the First World War? Which British politician beat Churchill in the 1945 election?

 

British Bias... and I am betting you still do not even know the answers!!!... :popcorn:

 

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Sqn Ldr B #150 Posted 27 October 2015 - 12:17 PM

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View PostBlack Duke 008, on 27 October 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

 

British Bias... and I am betting you still do not even know the answers!!!... :popcorn:

 

Henry V, Herbert Asquith, Clement Attlee.

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Matthew J35U5 #151 Posted 27 October 2015 - 12:37 PM

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View PostWidowMaker1711, on 26 October 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

 

Pocket Battleship. I was just pointing out that it doesnt matter how modern a vessel was when it comes down to it.

 

Its not actually possible to compare the battles to sink the Bismarck and the Graf Spee. One was a proper naval battle with only spotter aircraft the other was the first tolling of the bell for the end of the large turreted battleship and the rise of the escorted carrier force.

 

Luckily we dont have to get into the Prinz Eugen or Tirpitz.

The germans can call their armoured cruisers whatever they want, I fail to see a reason to call them anything other than armoured cruiser. 

You're trying to demonstrate that the age of a ship isn't important by comparing a fight between a ship built in 1932 vs 3 cruisers built at roughly the same time to a fight between a ship built in ~1940 and a ship built in ~1925? What? How does that logic make sense?

(If anyone's confused, I'm ignoring all of the ships that fought Bismark except King George V and Rodney because the only thing I'm focusing on is how Bismark was disabled, which only the BB's would be able to do. [Disabled=guns disabled]). 

In what way is Rodney and King George V completely disabling Bismark with gunfire not a naval battle? You're acting like this is somehow equivalent to the sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse, where planes just fly in and sink them, without them ever seeing another ship to fire upon. 

More to the point, if these battles aren't comparable, why did you compare them? 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


WidowMaker1711 #152 Posted 27 October 2015 - 12:52 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 27 October 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

The germans can call their armoured cruisers whatever they want, I fail to see a reason to call them anything other than armoured cruiser. 

You're trying to demonstrate that the age of a ship isn't important by comparing a fight between a ship built in 1932 vs 3 cruisers built at roughly the same time to a fight between a ship built in ~1940 and a ship built in ~1925? What? How does that logic make sense?

(If anyone's confused, I'm ignoring all of the ships that fought Bismark except King George V and Rodney because the only thing I'm focusing on is how Bismark was disabled, which only the BB's would be able to do. [Disabled=guns disabled]). 

In what way is Rodney and King George V completely disabling Bismark with gunfire not a naval battle? You're acting like this is somehow equivalent to the sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse, where planes just fly in and sink them, without them ever seeing another ship to fire upon. 

More to the point, if these battles aren't comparable, why did you compare them? 

 

I didnt compare them. I just asked why the Battle of the River Plate hadnt been considered in the list of battles that affected the Second World War. Three outdated undergunned cruisers the 8" Ajax and the two 6" Exeter and Achilles against the 11" Panzerschiffe Graf Spee. The Exeter never even closed to its optimum firing range before having to withdraw.

 

Bismarck was killed by Rodney and King George V but its universally accepted that it was the hugely brave crews in Swordfish of the Fleet Air Arm who disabled her steering therefore allowing the kill.


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Uranprojekt #153 Posted 27 October 2015 - 01:36 PM

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View PostWidowMaker1711, on 27 October 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

 

I didnt compare them. I just asked why the Battle of the River Plate hadnt been considered in the list of battles that affected the Second World War. Three outdated undergunned cruisers the 8" Ajax and the two 6" Exeter and Achilles against the 11" Panzerschiffe Graf Spee. The Exeter never even closed to its optimum firing range before having to withdraw.

 

Bismarck was killed by Rodney and King George V but its universally accepted that it was the hugely brave crews in Swordfish of the Fleet Air Arm who disabled her steering therefore allowing the kill.

 

If you're talking about the list of battles that I made, I didn't include the Battle of the River Plate because I forgot about it. I made that list quite quickly off the top of my head, naming battles as I remembered them.


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


WidowMaker1711 #154 Posted 27 October 2015 - 01:38 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 27 October 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

 

If you're talking about the list of battles that I made, I didn't include the Battle of the River Plate because I forgot about it. I made that list quite quickly off the top of my head, naming battles as I remembered them.

 

Ah ok. I know its one that most people dismiss as inconsequential.


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Matthew J35U5 #155 Posted 27 October 2015 - 02:59 PM

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View PostWidowMaker1711, on 27 October 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

 

I didnt compare them. I just asked why the Battle of the River Plate hadnt been considered in the list of battles that affected the Second World War. Three outdated undergunned cruisers the 8" Ajax and the two 6" Exeter and Achilles against the 11" Panzerschiffe Graf Spee. The Exeter never even closed to its optimum firing range before having to withdraw.

 

Bismarck was killed by Rodney and King George V but its universally accepted that it was the hugely brave crews in Swordfish of the Fleet Air Arm who disabled her steering therefore allowing the kill.

Yeah, you totally hadn't tried to compare them, as seen here by you trying to compare them:
(Also, Graf Spee and the 3 British cruisers were roughly the same age.)

View PostWidowMaker1711, on 26 October 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

Look at the Graf Spee. Completely out armoured, outranged and outgunned the Falkland based force led by HMS Ajax (pronounced as if you were saying A Jacks) but still took a thumping.



Obsolete torpedo bombers disabling a BB's steering is the first indication that the age of battleships is over? Really? Most people would point to things like the attack on Taranto, Pearl Harbour, or the sinking of Repulse and Prince of Wales as an indication that BB's were helpless against enemy carriers, but apparently you feel that a battleship having its steering disabled, allowing two other battleships to catch, disable, and destroy it is a good example of battleships being sunk only with planes, without the need for other battleships. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


WidowMaker1711 #156 Posted 27 October 2015 - 03:36 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 27 October 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

Yeah, you totally hadn't tried to compare them, as seen here by you trying to compare them:
(Also, Graf Spee and the 3 British cruisers were roughly the same age.)



Obsolete torpedo bombers disabling a BB's steering is the first indication that the age of battleships is over? Really? Most people would point to things like the attack on Taranto, Pearl Harbour, or the sinking of Repulse and Prince of Wales as an indication that BB's were helpless against enemy carriers, but apparently you feel that a battleship having its steering disabled, allowing two other battleships to catch, disable, and destroy it is a good example of battleships being sunk only with planes, without the need for other battleships. 

 

Only Taranto predates the sinking of the Bismarck. And as at Pearl Harbour all the Battleships were captive being at anchor in a harbour.

 

I started out by agreeing armour means nothing. Dont understand the hostility. 


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Matthew J35U5 #157 Posted 27 October 2015 - 04:57 PM

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View PostWidowMaker1711, on 27 October 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

 

Only Taranto predates the sinking of the Bismarck. And as at Pearl Harbour all the Battleships were captive being at anchor in a harbour.

 

I started out by agreeing armour means nothing. Dont understand the hostility. 

You might understand better if you realized that I was not arguing that armour means nothing. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


WidowMaker1711 #158 Posted 27 October 2015 - 06:19 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 27 October 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

You might understand better if you realized that I was not arguing that armour means nothing. 

 

Ok wires were crossed. I apologise.


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