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What if, Nazi secret weapons of WW2, were built?

Nazi super weapons

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Matthew J35U5 #61 Posted 31 August 2015 - 01:57 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 31 August 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

 

Actually there was nothing stealth about the 229, it was just simply a flying wing design. People often think its stealth due to the similarities between it and the B2 Spirit.

But But But, [edited] TV shows keep telling me that its so special and stealthy, even though stealth technology wasn't really understood by anyone at the time. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


TheKiltedTanker #62 Posted 31 August 2015 - 02:07 PM

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The only thing that would've  prolonged the war was if Hitler had stayed out of Russia and Stalin had sat WW2 out....Nazi secret weapons were cool but none of them short of a nuke would have changed the outcome of the war...but they are cool......conversely had Hitler defeated the Soviet Union he would have gained the natural resources and space ( out of range of allied bombers) necessary to theoretically buy him enough time to develop  his own atomic weapon.

Edited by SpiderMedic71, 31 August 2015 - 02:07 PM.

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Sqn Ldr B #63 Posted 31 August 2015 - 02:09 PM

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Wouldn't he still be in range of allied bombers operating out of the Middle East, India, and Alaska?

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XxDAFFYxxDUCKxX #64 Posted 31 August 2015 - 02:09 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 30 August 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think a more fun conversation would be how far the Soviet Union would have been set back if Stalin had listened to some of the crazy ideas wonder weapons that were suggested to him. Behold the mighty jumping tank:
http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2015/07/war-of-worlds.html

 

Fortunately, Stalin, in all of his insanity, at least knew how to run a war program. Find something good enough, and spam the ever-living hell out of it. Didn't matter if Hitler had a Maus, because eventually, enough T-35-85s and IS's are going to come up and kill it. 

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BleakPanther #65 Posted 31 August 2015 - 02:22 PM

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But eventually the Americans would harness the atomic bomb, rendering German super weapons obsolete right? Seems a bit extreme, but that's what finally broke Japanese resistance. Would have broke the Germans too. The only super weapon I knew about was the death laser they built. If I recall correctly, the researchers who created it destroyed it and the plans. It fired radiation, I think. 

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Sqn Ldr B #66 Posted 31 August 2015 - 02:24 PM

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Sure, death laser.... 

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XxDAFFYxxDUCKxX #67 Posted 31 August 2015 - 02:38 PM

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View PostSpiderMedic71, on 31 August 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

The only thing that would've  prolonged the war was if Hitler had stayed out of Russia and Stalin had sat WW2 out....Nazi secret weapons were cool but none of them short of a nuke would have changed the outcome of the war...but they are cool......conversely had Hitler defeated the Soviet Union he would have gained the natural resources and space ( out of range of allied bombers) necessary to theoretically buy him enough time to develop  his own atomic weapon.

 

That and the fact that the soviets technically stole the atomic bomb, meaning that in such a case, the germans could have easily stolen the designs as well.

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Section47ABH #68 Posted 31 August 2015 - 02:47 PM

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View PostHellhound2723, on 30 August 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

If Hitler was killed, would it have ended the war earlier?

No, it would have gone on longer.  The Allied secret services had a standing veto on all plans to assassinate him, or aid to third-party plans to assassinate him.  There was a very real possibility of him being replaced by someone who wasn't barking mad and slightly incompetent.

View PostHellhound2723, on 30 August 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

Nazi Germany had a vast slave labor force to pull from.

Never more than 20% of their total workforce, and highly motivitated to sabotage their output.  Slavery is - usually, the US South had a few decades where it made economic sense for a wealthy few) horribly inefficient anywhere past a technology level that we passed in about the 9th century, and was generally only practised by those with a deep-seated cultural attachment to the practise after that point - and they tended to lose wars against those that didn't do it.

 

As for the Wunderwaffen, the problem with all of them, without exception, is that they never do enough damage to justify their cost.  Classic example: the Tiger.  Averaged a bit over 5-to-1 kill ratio, but the cost of building them meant they were generally outnumbered 13-to-1.  Sucked to be in one of the five tanks, by the other eight went on to win.  The V-weapons were even worse: the V2 killed more germans than Allied nations personnel: the effect on morale was, like the blitz, to hack those on the receiving end so far off that they wanted to win even harder - on both sides.  Editorial from the time in Britain trended along the lines of "When, not if, when we win, the men responsible for this disgusting weapon must hang."  (As it turned out, most of 'em got jobs with NASA.)  Just like the Blitz, basically.  There's a comment from Orwell during the Blitz, writing to a friend in the US:  "Everyone has a near-thing story by now, to the point that it has become rather bad form to tell them." (As close as I can remember without cracking a book.)

 

The science and technology that got funded in the Third Reich was whatever could be dumbed down enough for Hitler to understand, basically.  So, lots of flashy clever-looking things that sounded like war-winners to a guy who failed the entrance exams for art school.  Twice.  It was fertile territory for charlatans, but things like ahead-of-their-time jet fighters got de-funded and back-burnered until they couldn't make any difference.

 

Meanwhile, the Allied side had ALL the logistics.  And it's logistics that wins wars.  The Soviets had all their production shifted east of the Urals, and the bulk of Allied production was happening in the Continental US, both lots out of reach of the Axis powers.  Unless the Nazi wonder weapons were able to saturation-bomb the whole of the continental US AND trans-Ural Russia, they weren't going to make any real difference to the war.


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Navyman8390 #69 Posted 31 August 2015 - 04:30 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 31 August 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

But But But, [edited] TV shows keep telling me that its so special and stealthy, even though stealth technology wasn't really understood by anyone at the time.

Actually it was unintentionally stealthy due to the inherent low return rate of the flying wing design.  But no.  Stealthy is NOT stealth as we've come to know it.  The intakes on the 229 would still have been huge radar mirrors.

For thaat matter the Mosquito was also unintentionally stealthy being made of wood.  But the propellers were reflectors.



Section47ABH #70 Posted 31 August 2015 - 05:40 PM

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View PostNavyman8390, on 31 August 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

Actually it was unintentionally stealthy due to the inherent low return rate of the flying wing design.  But no.  Stealthy is NOT stealth as we've come to know it.  The intakes on the 229 would still have been huge radar mirrors.

For thaat matter the Mosquito was also unintentionally stealthy being made of wood.  But the propellers were reflectors.

Fortunately, up against an enemy with a completely pants attempt at radar.  The British Isles had had Chain Home up and running since 1936: the Luftwaffe didn't order their first system until 1938, and Hitler couldn't be persuaded to give any funding to defensive technologies.   They didn't know magnetrons were even possible on a scale small enough to mount in aircraft until they shot down an RAF aircraft with one in ... in 1943.
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Hellhound2723 #71 Posted 31 August 2015 - 08:14 PM

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Okay, with everything being said. What if Hitler never rose to power? WW2 never happend, Japan never bombed Pearl Harbor, would have Stalin became the "Soviet Hitler"? This is an alternate history What if.

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Knobchuck #72 Posted 31 August 2015 - 08:20 PM

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Wouldnt matter.

 

Their leadership was too incompetent to use them properly.



Sqn Ldr B #73 Posted 31 August 2015 - 08:50 PM

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View PostHellhound2723, on 31 August 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:

Okay, with everything being said. What if Hitler never rose to power? WW2 never happend, Japan never bombed Pearl Harbor, would have Stalin became the "Soviet Hitler"? This is an alternate history What if.

 

Yeah, it would basically be WW2 but with the Russians taking over eastern Europe and trying to get into Germany, but with Britain and France using Germany as a buffer zone against the Soviets.

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Section47ABH #74 Posted 31 August 2015 - 11:25 PM

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View PostHellhound2723, on 31 August 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:

Okay, with everything being said. What if Hitler never rose to power? WW2 never happend, Japan never bombed Pearl Harbor, would have Stalin became the "Soviet Hitler"? This is an alternate history What if.

 

That's a big one.  Without Hitler, Stalin wasn't long for power: it was the Great Patriotic War that gave him his last ten years of power. One purge too many, one disastrous 'Comrade Stalin Is Always Right' mismanagement too many, he'd have been brought down in a palace coup of some kind and the Soviet Union, lacking a Cold War to keep it together, would have come apart considerably earlier than it did.  An aggressive war of conquest without the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to justify it, there's no Winter War either.

 

If your sole point of departure is just 'No Hitler', though, you still have fascist movements all across Europe at the same time.  Germany would probably still have had a serious political problem of some kind, and quite possibly a civil war.  Hitler's coup wasn't the only one in train at the time, it was just the first one that stuck. They could easily have had something like Spain had: a ruining Civil War, a couple of decades of fascism and then liberalisation with the fall of the dictator, or possibly the dictator immediately after him. 

 

Italy would still have had Mussolini, making a wretched nuisance of himself in North Africa and Greece, but without the Afrika Korps to help out, the Italians wouldn't have achieved even the little they did - they were underequipped and apart from a very few units, didn't much give a stuff about Il Duce's grand dreams of empire, so at the least sign of opposition they gave it up as a bad job.  Which is greatly to their credit, in my view: no 'I was only following orders' from most of them.

 

And, of course, a lack of a Hitler still has the whole Pacific Theatre in play.  Hitler had precisely nothing to do with that, apart from a very limited exchange of technical expertise between the two (his declaration of war on the US after Pearl Harbour wasn't even required by the treaty he had with Japan, and all it really achieved was an end to US neutrality in the European Theatre to Nazi Germany's massive disadvantage).  The Imperial Japanese Navy would still have been ordered to attack the US against the advice of their top admiral, and would probably have been beaten back in considerably quicker time.  With a reduced need to defend the British Isles, the Royal Navy wouldn't have been quite so shorthanded in the Pacific either.  Much shorter war over there, with  considerably less change in the colonial system.  The British Empire would have lasted a lot longer, too, with no need to unload assets at fire-sale prices to pay for the weapons to cope with a threatened invasion.

 

Be interesting to speculate about the longer-term consequences, mind.


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Hellhound2723 #75 Posted 01 September 2015 - 12:04 AM

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Good one! WW2 would have happend regardless of Hitler.

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Section47ABH #76 Posted 01 September 2015 - 02:52 PM

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There would have been fighting, just not, I rather suspect, a world war. 

 

Most of Europe would have stayed out, with no German support the Republic would have won in Spain, so no Franco, Germany would have had  had a few years of political buffoonery after the collapse of Weimar with a much more insular fascist government coming out of the resulting mess (they'd still have had the small coterie of economic geniuses that enabled the Nazis, so it would have been a prosperous, alles-in-ordnung fascism that would have been a reasonably nice place to live provided you fit the mould).  The course of their history would have been like Spain's: a few decades of fascism collapsing into a fairly liberal democracy as the old guard mouth-breathers die off or retire to become the accredited bores of their respective old folks' homes.   France would probably have done something similar, but the fascists would have collapsed sooner there. Italy would have failed hard in N. Africa: Britain would have got a short victorious war out of that one.  Mussolini would have been the first fascist strongman to fall.

 

The Pacific Theatre of Operations would have been the same Japan/USA fight it was in our time line but with a considerably bigger British Empire presence and the high water mark of Imperial Japanese advances being a long way short of what they originally managed.  The six to twelve months of running wild that Yamamoto predicted he'd get would have been even shorter (In our time line, it was six months to the day that saw the end of the Battle of Midway).  Russia would have had a lot more influence and support to offer the Chinese Communist Party, so the Eastern Bloc might well have had its centre of gravity a lot further east, post war: considerably less resentment of the Soviets from the Chinese, and enough resources to spare that they wouldn't have lost Taiwan.

 

The interesting question is, without the pressure of a truly global conflict, would anyone have bothered with a Manhattan Project?  In this time line, Einstein and Szilard would probably have remained German scientists, along with a lot of the others who fled at Szilard's urging in 1933 - the Nazis were uniquely racist even among the rash of such movements in Europe in the early 1930s, so their likely replacement absent the incredibly racist Hitler would almost certainly not have been quite such a reason to get while the getting was good. They wouldn't, however, be likely to make Einstein and Szilard want to call their attention to the warlike possibilities of nuclear fission (which they did in August of 1939, in our time line, warning Roosevelt that their former colleagues in the Axis sphere could do the equations just the same.)

 

No Manhatttan project means Operation Downfall would have had to go ahead, but would have been a two-pronged affair with the Chinese and Russians going in too after stomping all over the Japanese forces in Manchuria (which, OTL, they did in very short order - Japan was never able to support its forces against proper opposition.)  It might well have ended with a Peoples' Democratic Republic of North Japan to go with North Korea and North Vietnam.  The proxy wars of the 50s, 60s and early 70s would have been very different, as would the ATL Warsaw Pact.  Which would possibly have been a Tokyo Pact.

 

What the economics of that alternate world would look like, I dunno.


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