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Sqn Ldr B #1 Posted 21 September 2015 - 07:07 PM

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I've decided that there ought to be a thread dedicated to this celebrated soldier, writer, statesman, painter and orator. I, and I am sure many others, will think he was the greatest Briton to live, and I know I at least see him as the greatest person ever to live.

 

I'll start the thread with a quote from Churchill during his days fighting in the Boer War:

''Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.''

 

 

(If you're here to tell us how you hate Churchill etcetera, don't bother).


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Uranprojekt #2 Posted 21 September 2015 - 07:41 PM

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I don't necessarily hate Churchill, I just don't think he's entirely deserving of the title "greatest Briton to live" when there are Britons throughout history that have an equal or better stake to the claim.

I don't deny that Churchill was very much a people pleasing politician that really brought the country together with sense of proud Britishness that hadn't been witnessed since we trounced Napoleon the previous century. That said, it wasn't just his war. I will find a list of VC recipients and name them all as better Britons than Churchill because they gave everything they had, and then some, in order to allow old Winston to keep his promises of British and European freedom from Nazi tyranny and oppression. Churchill was at home rousing the public to support the war but it was the regular frontline Tommy that was doing the necessary so that Churchill could give his speeches.

Like I said, I don't hate Churchill. Nope, not at all. I simply feel that he gets a little more credit than he deserves sometimes. Politicians don't win wars, it's the troops.

(P.S. You can't make a thread like this and expect there to be no dissenters. There will always be dissenters.)

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Sqn Ldr B #3 Posted 21 September 2015 - 08:28 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 21 September 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

I don't necessarily hate Churchill, I just don't think he's entirely deserving of the title "greatest Briton to live" when there are Britons throughout history that have an equal or better stake to the claim.

I don't deny that Churchill was very much a people pleasing politician that really brought the country together with sense of proud Britishness that hadn't been witnessed since we trounced Napoleon the previous century. That said, it wasn't just his war. I will find a list of VC recipients and name them all as better Britons than Churchill because they gave everything they had, and then some, in order to allow old Winston to keep his promises of British and European freedom from Nazi tyranny and oppression. Churchill was at home rousing the public to support the war but it was the regular frontline Tommy that was doing the necessary so that Churchill could give his speeches.

Like I said, I don't hate Churchill. Nope, not at all. I simply feel that he gets a little more credit than he deserves sometimes. Politicians don't win wars, it's the troops.

(P.S. You can't make a thread like this and expect there to be no dissenters. There will always be dissenters.)

 

I know what you're saying, of course those who gave their lives made the most contribution to the war, but I'm not really talking about just the war here. Of course, a great part of my appreciation for Churchill comes from his acts during the war, but to me it is the humanity of the man, his ability to appeal to people from every social background, his ability to inspire the greatest in people, his ability to soldier on despite all odds, in spite of all his failures. I'd rather you didn't think it was solely through his actions during WW2 that I see him as a great person, his actions in peacetime must also be remembered, like his part in the creation of the NHS and the welfare state. As for the soldiers, yes, they made the ultimate contribution to the war, but also note that Churchill himself was, for a time, a soldier. He fought in Cuba, South Africa, and was a battalion commander as well as politician during WW1, often personally leading expeditions into no man's land. Of course, he never made as much a sacrifice or contribution as a soldier than all the countless men and women who fought and died, but at least Churchill knew this, and had experience in such things himself. He knew what the soldiers went through, he had fought with them, and he cared for them.

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Sqn Ldr B #4 Posted 21 September 2015 - 08:36 PM

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(And yes, of course there will be dissenters, though it would be nice if said dissenters keep their mouths shut or start their own topic if they must say something).

"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life" ~ Cecil Rhodes

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Uranprojekt #5 Posted 21 September 2015 - 10:59 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 21 September 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

 

I know what you're saying, of course those who gave their lives made the most contribution to the war, but I'm not really talking about just the war here. Of course, a great part of my appreciation for Churchill comes from his acts during the war, but to me it is the humanity of the man, his ability to appeal to people from every social background, his ability to inspire the greatest in people, his ability to soldier on despite all odds, in spite of all his failures. I'd rather you didn't think it was solely through his actions during WW2 that I see him as a great person, his actions in peacetime must also be remembered, like his part in the creation of the NHS and the welfare state. As for the soldiers, yes, they made the ultimate contribution to the war, but also note that Churchill himself was, for a time, a soldier. He fought in Cuba, South Africa, and was a battalion commander as well as politician during WW1, often personally leading expeditions into no man's land. Of course, he never made as much a sacrifice or contribution as a soldier than all the countless men and women who fought and died, but at least Churchill knew this, and had experience in such things himself. He knew what the soldiers went through, he had fought with them, and he cared for them.

 

Churchill's part in the creation of the NHS and the welfare state was that of, along with the majority of the Tory benches in the Commons, rejecting most of the Beveridge Report that had been commissioned in 1941 to look at the state of the British healthcare, public services and housing systems and recommend how best to improve/refine them. It was the Beveridge Report that led to the creation of the NHS and the welfare state under the Labour government that was elected in 1945. The Tories, including Churchill, voted against implementing the reforms recommended by the Beveridge Report during the war, 1943 I believe the vote was taken, time and again citing the Treasury position of "we don't know how the British economy will look after the war thus we daren't implement such radical reforms to the State" (I'm paraphrasing but you get the gist). In fact, the reforms that were put up for debate in the Commons based on the Beveridge Report were all suggested by a Labour/Tory coalition committee that was largely dominated by Tories and, even then, they were well below what the Report had recommended. Yes, the Tories voted against what could be considered their own proposed reforms. The only reason the Tory government even considered such reforms was the popularity of the Beveridge Report amongst the general public. Upon publication in 1942, the report was very well received across all classes of people and the government had no other choice but to try and implement some sort of reform based on the report in order to appease the general public.

 

If you want to thank a prime minister for the creation of the British welfare state, thank Clement Attlee as it was his Labour government that created the welfare state. Whilst you're doing that, say a thanks to Aneurin Bevan, Secretary of State for Health in Attlee's government, for essentially creating the NHS in 1946.


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


Aschenblume #6 Posted 21 September 2015 - 11:01 PM

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He certainly learned his error from Gallipoli.

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Matthew J35U5 #7 Posted 22 September 2015 - 04:13 AM

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I hate the Churchill. Too slow, the armour is bad, and it has neither gun depression nor gun elevation. :trollface:


I think we might be in a better situation today had Churchill retired after WWII, it seems less likely that we'd have a theocratic Iran anyway. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


DStegCat #8 Posted 22 September 2015 - 03:36 PM

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My favorite Churchill quotes are

 

"My most brilliant achievement was my ability to be able to persuade my wife to marry me."

 

"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

 

"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals."

 

"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly."

 

"It is important when you haven't got any ammunition to have a butt on your rifle."

 


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Sqn Ldr B #9 Posted 22 September 2015 - 03:41 PM

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View PostDStegCat, on 22 September 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly."

 

That's got be one of the best insults ever. Have you heard his one about the Spineless Wonder?


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DStegCat #10 Posted 22 September 2015 - 08:12 PM

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Wonder where the Potsdam Conference and post WW2 would have ended up if he had remained Prime Minister?

A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

 


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Sqn Ldr B #11 Posted 22 September 2015 - 08:14 PM

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View PostDStegCat, on 22 September 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

Wonder where the Potsdam Conference and post WW2 would have ended up if he had remained Prime Minister?

A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

 

 

I don't really know to be honest. I'm sure it would be rather different though.

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Turboclicker #12 Posted 23 September 2015 - 01:03 AM

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I hate Churchill.

I3iggus Nickus #13 Posted 23 September 2015 - 01:04 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 21 September 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

I hate the Churchill. Too slow, the armour is bad, and it has neither gun depression nor gun elevation. :trollface:


I think we might be in a better situation today had Churchill retired after WWII, it seems less likely that we'd have a theocratic Iran anyway. 

 

lol yeah

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Matthew J35U5 #14 Posted 23 September 2015 - 01:12 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 22 September 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

 

I don't really know to be honest. I'm sure it would be rather different though.

 

The same way probably, Stalin and Truman didn't really care what Britain wanted by that point. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Sqn Ldr B #15 Posted 23 September 2015 - 06:21 AM

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View PostTurboclicker, on 23 September 2015 - 01:03 AM, said:

I hate Churchill.

 

That's nice, now go and whine about it somewhere else.

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Turboclicker #16 Posted 23 September 2015 - 07:58 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 23 September 2015 - 02:21 AM, said:

 

That's nice, now go and whine about it somewhere else.

 

You take these forums too seriously. 

 

Also, you are not allowed to say "Go elsewhere if you don't like it." 

 

I'm sure your jimmies would be rustled to the max if you had a thread where you disliked or disagreed extremely with the OP.



Sqn Ldr B #17 Posted 23 September 2015 - 03:27 PM

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View PostTurboclicker, on 23 September 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

 

You take these forums too seriously. 

 

Also, you are not allowed to say "Go elsewhere if you don't like it." 

 

I'm sure your jimmies would be rustled to the max if you had a thread where you disliked or disagreed extremely with the OP.

 

Eh, I'll say what I want within the rules. If you're joking, it would be nice to have some indication.

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Matthew J35U5 #18 Posted 23 September 2015 - 04:09 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 23 September 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

 

Eh, I'll say what I want within the rules. If you're joking, it would be nice to have some indication.

He meant in the sense that you have to deal with what whatever people choose to say on the subject. If I were to make a thread on how Victorian England was the worst thing ever, you'd probably disagree and want to post on the subject within my thread. As we've established, this is a forum, not a hugbox. Though "I hate churchill" is a waste of bandwidth, so it would be pretty reasonable to ask people to make meaningful posts instead of things like that.


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Sqn Ldr B #19 Posted 23 September 2015 - 04:10 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 23 September 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

He meant in the sense that you have to deal with what whatever people choose to say on the subject. If I were to make a thread on how Victorian England was the worst thing ever, you'd probably disagree and want to post on the subject within my thread. As we've established, this is a forum, not a hugbox. Though "I hate churchill" is a waste of bandwidth, so it would be pretty reasonable to ask people to make meaningful posts instead of things like that.

 

Actually I'd agree, most of Victorian England was a shitehole.

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NSW Mntd Rifles #20 Posted 01 October 2015 - 03:21 AM

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View PostAschenblume, on 22 September 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

He certainly learned his error from Gallipoli.

 

History tells us that he didn't learn form Gallipoli. He kept meddling in strategic and military matters that he should have stayed out of. In 1941 he deceived the Australian government into allowing its 6th Division to be sent into Greece without adequate air support. That went about as well as Gallipoli. He meddled in appointing one of his favourites to command the defence of Crete. That went about as well as Gallipoli. He oversaw an inadequate defence of Singapore. That went about as well as Gallipoli. He diverted the convoy carrying the Australian 6th & 7th Divisions back from the Middle East (to defend their homeland) to Rangoon, hoping to muscle the Australian government into allowing these two divisions to be sacrificed in a hopeless defence. In the end elements of the 7th Division were sent to Java and promptly captured by the Japanese. He was a brilliant orator and tireless worker but was driven by a vision of empire that had long passed. In many ways his actions towards the dominions helped to dismember the empire. 




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