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Sqn Ldr B's Italian Tech Tree (well, more or less anyway)

Italian Tree Ideas

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Sqn Ldr B #1 Posted 06 December 2015 - 11:52 AM

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Okay, I decided to go ahead and attempt an Italian tech tree. There are suitable candidates for a full medium line to tier X (with a few clones unfortunately) and a TD line to tier VI.

 

Italian Tech Tree

 

Tier I

Fiat 3000- Light Tank

The Fiat 3000 was the Italian-produced variant of the Renault FT, and the first Italian tank to be built in large numbers. Two variants existed, one with a 6.5mm machine gun, and one with a 37mm gun. We'll use the 37mm version, the Fiat 3000B. So essentially what we get is yet another Renault FT copy at tier I.

Spoiler

 

Tier II-

Fiat L6/40- Light Tank

This was the main tank used by Italy on the Eastern Front, and was also employed against British and Commonwealth forces in North Africa. The main armament was a Breda 20mm gun, not an autocannon like other tier II 20mm weapons. Armour was 30mm on the hull front, and 40mm on the turret front, so not too shabby in that department. Only 15mm on the sides, mind. Speed was a maximum of 42 km/h, but only on the road.

Spoiler

 

Semovente da 47/32- Tank Destroyer

This was a modification of the Italian L3 tankette. There were actually two "Semovente da 47/32" vehicles, one based on the L3, and one based on the above L6/40. The one on the L6/40 chassis will be the tier III, so we'll call the tier II the Semovente da 47/32 and the tier III one the Semovente L6/40, just for distinction between the two. Anyway, this one does away with almost all of the hull design of the L3 it's based on, and has an Austrian 47mm Bohler AT gun mounted behind a gun shield at the very front of the vehicle. Understandably, the very thickest armour was only 13mm on the gun shield.

Spoiler

 

Tier III

Carro Armato M13/40- Light Tank

This was one of the more numerous Italian tanks of WW2, seeing production from 1940 onwards. It was an improvement over its predecessor, having a large 47mm main gun, with about the same armour. Speed was 30 km/h at its best.

Spoiler

 

Semovente L6/40- Tank Destroyer

This was a modification of the L6/40 tank, armed with a 47mm AT gun in a casemate-style mount. The tank saw service in both North Africa and Russia with the Italian armed forces and with the Wehrmacht following Italy's capitulation. Armour was between 15mm and 30mm, and speed being up to 42 km/h.

Spoiler

 

 

Tier IV

Carro Armato M15/42- Light Tank

A further improvement over its earlier incarnation, the M15/42 mounted a 47mm gun, with both armour and speed improving over the earlier M13/40. The tank saw service in both Africa, and in Italy and Sicily when the allies invaded.

Spoiler

 

Semovente da 75/18- Tank Destroyer

This was a tank destroyer based on the M13/40, and ordered into production after Italian officials decided they wanted their own version of the German StuG. There were two variants of this. The first, the 75/18, mounted a shorter barrelled 75mm gun. The later version, the 75/34, mounted a longer barrelled 75mm gun.

Spoiler

 

Carro Armato P40- Medium Tank

This tank was, really, the pinnacle of Italian tank design in WW2, and the last incarnation of the Carro Armato series to be produced in numbers. This last hurrah of Italian tank design increased the armour up to 60mm on the front, the speed up to 40 km/h and the main gun to a 75mm mounted in the turret. The tank saw limited service with the Italians, being barely into production before the surrender. After the surrender the Germans took over production and used several in service, as well as many without engines as fixed emplacements.

Spoiler

 

Semovente da 75/46- Tank Destroyer

A further version of the Semovente series, the tank mounted a long barrelled 75mm gun in a casemate. I'm not entirely sure of the chassis, but I think it's a P40. The tank saw the most service with the Germans after the Italian surrender. Admittedly, the penetration values for this gun are somewhat lacklustre, but something could be made up, I'm sure.

Spoiler

 

 

Okay, I'm afraid I'll have to stop there, I'm nearing the picture limit. I'll follow this immediately with the rest of the tanks.


Edited by Sqn Ldr B, 06 December 2015 - 01:34 PM.

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Metalrodent #2 Posted 06 December 2015 - 12:01 PM

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May be short, but all real tanks with easily obtainable information and two branches to go down.

 

I'd play it.


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Sqn Ldr B #3 Posted 06 December 2015 - 12:07 PM

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Tier VI

Carro Armato P43- Medium Tank

A further development of the P40, this tank is really as good as it gets with the Italians. Armour was 100mm on both the hull and turret front. The gun was the same 75mm on the P40, but the tank was also planned with a 90mm gun in mind as well, so at least here the Italians are starting to get some bigger guns. Speed was about 40 km/h on the road. Only one prototype was produced before Italy surrendered and the project was cancelled.

Spoiler

 

Semovente da 90/43- Tank Destroyer

A self propelled AT gun planned and put into production to deal with the Russian T-34 and KV-1, vehicles which the Italian guns of the time couldn't cope with. The tank mounted a 90mm gun on a fairly open chassis. The gun was mounted behind a gun shield and armour was 30mm at its maximum. Imagine a sort of lower tier Italian Waffentrager if you will. It bears more than a passing resemblance to the WT auf Pz. IV.

Spoiler

 

 

Premium Tanks

 

Renault R35- Tier II Premium Light Tank

Following the fall of France in 1940, Germany captured a whole load of French tanks, among them the Renault R35. The Germans later gave 124 of these R35s to Italy, where they saw use in the defence of Sicily, being in action against US Army Rangers at Gela, among other actions. The tanks retained their original short barrl

Spoiler

Carro Armato Celere Sahariano- Tier V Premium Light Tank

This tank was design and built in response to the British Crusader cruiser tank, a tank which the Italians apparently wanted their own version of. Only one prototype was built before the end of the African campaign. The tank had 30mm of armour on the front, the same 47mm gun seen on earlier Carro Armatos, and a top speed as high as 71 km/h on flat terrain.

Spoiler

 

So thanks for reading, leave a comment with your thoughts and feel free to bring to my attention anything that would be suitable past tier VI.


Edited by Sqn Ldr B, 06 December 2015 - 12:09 PM.

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Sqn Ldr B #4 Posted 06 December 2015 - 12:10 PM

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View PostMetalrodent, on 06 December 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

May be short, but all real tanks with easily obtainable information and two branches to go down.

 

I'd play it.

 

Yeah, I don't think the Italians had quite the focus nor the amount of paper projects that their German allies did.

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Darth Wookius #5 Posted 06 December 2015 - 12:14 PM

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They look interesting but a lot of them have flat as heck armor just like the A27 turrets on British tanks leading one to think that bouncing shots is only possible if the armor thickness completely outdoes the opposing tank's gun penetration. As for the T5 premium light the Italians wanted their own crusader tank as the actual crusader could eat through their tank's armor while nearly effortlessly deflecting italian rounds. Lastly a little more research will be needed as WG won't even consider this unless the tree goes up to t10.



Joco3000 #6 Posted 06 December 2015 - 12:46 PM

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Here's the problem.

If you want an Italian nation, you need to find a tier VII-X.

Otherwise you may just find them tacked onto the German tree.

As premiums.


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Sqn Ldr B #7 Posted 06 December 2015 - 12:54 PM

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Well, I just found some tier VII-X mediums on FTR. How does tier VII, Panther, tier VIII, Pershing, tier IX, M47 Patton and tier X an Italian proposal for a Leopard 1 with an autoloader, sound?

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Joco3000 #8 Posted 06 December 2015 - 12:58 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 December 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Well, I just found some tier VII-X mediums on FTR. How does tier VII, Panther, tier VIII, Pershing, tier IX, M47 Patton and tier X an Italian proposal for a Leopard 1 with an autoloader, sound?

 

Boring, Boring, Boring and very interesting.

I really dislike the use of clones in another nation as a non-premium.

Indigenous variants are good, but straight up clones? Nah.


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Sqn Ldr B #9 Posted 06 December 2015 - 01:02 PM

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View PostJoco3000, on 06 December 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

 

Boring, Boring, Boring and very interesting.

I really dislike the use of clones in another nation as a non-premium.

Indigenous variants are good, but straight up clones? Nah.

 

But they don't have any indigenous variants. Literally nothing. Unless you want to count removing one crewman and the hull MG from the Pershing as an "indigenous variant", in which case there'll only be two copies.

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Joco3000 #10 Posted 06 December 2015 - 01:11 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 06 December 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

 

But they don't have any indigenous variants. Literally nothing. Unless you want to count removing one crewman and the hull MG from the Pershing as an "indigenous variant", in which case there'll only be two copies.

 

Welcome to the plight of the Italian tech tree.

WG might add them with the clones. However, it's somewhat unlikely, unless some really good ideas (or arguments for including them) can be found.

 

For example, one of the equally bad options for the tier VIII medium is the Panther II. You could, in theory, probably fit the Italian 90mm gun into the Schamlturm turret.

 


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Sqn Ldr B #11 Posted 06 December 2015 - 01:22 PM

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View PostJoco3000, on 06 December 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

 

Welcome to the plight of the Italian tech tree.

WG might add them with the clones. However, it's somewhat unlikely, unless some really good ideas (or arguments for including them) can be found.

 

For example, one of the equally bad options for the tier VIII medium is the Panther II. You could, in theory, probably fit the Italian 90mm gun into the Schamlturm turret.

 

 

No, the Panther II would be stupid in the Italian tree, they only made one of them anyway. It'll have to be the German and Yank clones then.

Edited by Sqn Ldr B, 06 December 2015 - 01:22 PM.

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Sqn Ldr B #12 Posted 06 December 2015 - 01:34 PM

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Okay, the high tiers then:
 

Tier VII

Pantera- Medium Tank

At some point in the war, the Italian firm Ansaldo was offered production of the German Panther. Then the Italians surrendered and the proposal never got any further than that, a proposal. That's about it really. It's called Pantera because that's Italian for Panther. You don't really need a picture of a Panther.

 

Tier VIII

M26 Pershing- Medium Tank

Again, the same as the current version. The Italians received a bunch of Pershings from the Americans and used them. The Italians removed the hull MG and one of the crewmen, so there's that to make a tiny bit different I suppose.


Tier IX

OTO M47- Medium Tank

Ah, now we get something more unique. The base tank is the standard M47 Patton, a bunch of which the Italians got from the Americans. But, the Italians here have pulled through. This version has the same 105mm from the Leopard 1, and has a different engine. So, it's a bit different. Maybe even a bit better.

Spoiler

 

Tier X

OTO Leopard- Medium Tank

A proposal for an Italian Leopard 1, this one is the same, but is has an autoloader, so it could be very fun. It never existed though, just a proposal and a drawing.

Spoiler

 


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CowboyArizona #13 Posted 06 December 2015 - 01:42 PM

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I like the idea of an Italian tech tree.  Things like this make the game interesting.  It doesn't necessarily have to go to high tiers either.  They could allow a jump from tier 6 to your choice of American or German tier 7 so you don't feel trapped if you decide to play the Italian line (if Wargaming chooses).

Uranprojekt #14 Posted 06 December 2015 - 02:10 PM

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You seem to be missing the L5/21, L5/30, M11/39, M14/41, M16/43 and Semovente da 105/25. The 105/25 could certainly fill a tier VII (7) TD role quite easily, it does have a 105 mm gun after all, and the "L" and "M" tanks could be used to fill up the medium line in the low tiers and eliminate some of the higher tier clones that you've got. They'd all be using roughly the same gun and they'd all have terrible armour (let's face it, how many Italian tanks had anything remotely close to decent armour?) but I'm sure WG could get creative and give each one some sort of distinctive characteristic.

 

Another thing, and this is more me being pedantic than anything else, but the "P" tanks were classed as heavies by Italian standards and you have them listed as mediums. Yes, they considered a 26 ton tank like the P26/40 (P40) to be a "heavy" tank. The Italians were an odd bunch when it came to tanks; their light tanks are really tankettes, their mediums are really lights and their heavy tank was really a medium (at least they got the Semovente series of vehicles somewhat right...). Even though they are really medium tanks in all but name, I'd use the classification that the Italians gave the "P" tanks. Then again, as mentioned, that's just me being my pendantic self.


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Sqn Ldr B #15 Posted 06 December 2015 - 02:28 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 06 December 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

You seem to be missing the L5/21, L5/30, M11/39, M14/41, M16/43 and Semovente da 105/25. The 105/25 could certainly fill a tier VII (7) TD role quite easily, it does have a 105 mm gun after all, and the "L" and "M" tanks could be used to fill up the medium line in the low tiers and eliminate some of the higher tier clones that you've got. They'd all be using roughly the same gun and they'd all have terrible armour (let's face it, how many Italian tanks had anything remotely close to decent armour?) but I'm sure WG could get creative and give each one some sort of distinctive characteristic.

 

Another thing, and this is more me being pedantic than anything else, but the "P" tanks were classed as heavies by Italian standards and you have them listed as mediums. Yes, they considered a 26 ton tank like the P26/40 (P40) to be a "heavy" tank. The Italians were an odd bunch when it came to tanks; their light tanks are really tankettes, their mediums are really lights and their heavy tank was really a medium (at least they got the Semovente series of vehicles somewhat right...). Even though they are really medium tanks in all but name, I'd use the classification that the Italians gave the "P" tanks. Then again, as mentioned, that's just me being my pendantic self.

The L5/21 and L5/30 I believe are variants of the Fiat 3000 that would be in there as upgrade options. The M11/39 I discounted from the medium line due its main armament being in the hull. I know the M3 Lee has that too, but the M11/39's place in the tree could be easily filled by another tank. The M14/41 was a variant of the 13/40 and would be an upgrade package of it, and the M16/43 you mention is in fact the same vehicle as the Carro Armato Celere Sahariano.

 

As for the P tanks being heavies, they just don't fill the role of a heavy in the game. A lot of other tanks in the game don't fill their historical roles, I just think that while being technically classed as a heavy in real life, they don't fill the description of a heavy in the game.


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Crazedtiger77 #16 Posted 06 December 2015 - 02:53 PM

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I would like to see the Italians even if they war just added to the German tree. The only other tech tree they could add is possibly South America, although I'm struggling to find a non-clone tier 6 tank for them.


mifiliveni #17 Posted 06 December 2015 - 03:23 PM

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I would rather have the Swedish first.

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Sqn Ldr B #18 Posted 06 December 2015 - 03:41 PM

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View Postmifiliveni, on 06 December 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

I would rather have the Swedish first.

 

That might be my next thing. Any thoughts on the Italians though?

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Metalrodent #19 Posted 06 December 2015 - 04:41 PM

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And what's wrong with not having tiers VII-X? This mini Italian tree would still have more tanks than the Japs currently do.

 

Don't see why everything needs to lead up to tier X, it would still be new content for the game.


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Sqn Ldr B #20 Posted 06 December 2015 - 04:43 PM

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View PostMetalrodent, on 06 December 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

And what's wrong with not having tiers VII-X? This mini Italian tree would still have more tanks than the Japs currently do.

 

Don't see why everything needs to lead up to tier X, it would still be new content for the game.

 

Yeah, for me personally the interest is in the lower tiers anyway. They've got a lot more historically significant tanks, and a lot more tanks in general.

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