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Matthew J35U5 #161 Posted 25 February 2016 - 06:58 PM

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View PostParty Poison91, on 25 February 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

 

And did we know for sure that the French would do it? Do you know for sure that the French would've kept fighting?  Are you honestly saying that there was zero chance that the Germans could've gotten their hands on them ships?

The French fleet after the armistice was located in Alexandria, and parts of french-controlled North Africa. You might note that those are no-where near German controlled territory. Once the British betrayed them, a large part of the French fleet moved to Toulon, where the Germans were potentially able to reach them. (Well played Britain!) Then, the exact situation you are hypothesizing happened, where the Germans attempted to seize the French fleet, and the French scuttled it. These are not probilistic statements, these are facts. 

 

In general, the french fleet commanders were unwilling to allow their mortal enemies the Germans to take their fleet. Admiral Darlan said he would mutiny and take the fleet if the Germans demanded it, the Admiral at Mers el Kebir said that he would not turn over his ships to the Germans under any circumstances. 

 

But tell me, how do you think the Germans would be able to capture French ships in North Africa, and bring them to German controlled ports?


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Party Poison91 #162 Posted 25 February 2016 - 07:33 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 25 February 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

The French fleet after the armistice was located in Alexandria, and parts of french-controlled North Africa. You might note that those are no-where near German controlled territory. Once the British betrayed them, a large part of the French fleet moved to Toulon, where the Germans were potentially able to reach them. (Well played Britain!) Then, the exact situation you are hypothesizing happened, where the Germans attempted to seize the French fleet, and the French scuttled it. These are not probilistic statements, these are facts. 

 

In general, the french fleet commanders were unwilling to allow their mortal enemies the Germans to take their fleet. Admiral Darlan said he would mutiny and take the fleet if the Germans demanded it, the Admiral at Mers el Kebir said that he would not turn over his ships to the Germans under any circumstances. 

 

But tell me, how do you think the Germans would be able to capture French ships in North Africa, and bring them to German controlled ports?

Are you saying that it'd be impossible for them to seize them? And again; Are you saying that there was absolutely no chance whatsoever that those ships could have fallen in to German hands?


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Matthew J35U5 #163 Posted 25 February 2016 - 09:38 PM

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View PostParty Poison91, on 25 February 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

Are you saying that it'd be impossible for them to seize them? And again; Are you saying that there was absolutely no chance whatsoever that those ships could have fallen in to German hands?

 

Are you [censored for referencing a political figure]bot 2.0 or something? You already asked me this, and I said I didn't think the Germans could capture the French fleet from north Africa, and sail it somewhere they controlled. To reiterate, the Germans weren't able to capture any significant French ships (they got like 3 destroyers) from the fleet stationed at Toulon, why would they be better able to capture the ships when there are about 5 additional hoops they need to jump through?

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Sqn Ldr B #164 Posted 25 February 2016 - 10:03 PM

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Does it not seem like a move you'd make though? Britain is alone. It has no allies. At all. There is a big French fleet in North Africa. The British need control of the Mediterranean, without it their colonies there are lost and the armies stationed there too. There is a possibility, however small, that the French fleet could be commandeered, captured, turned over or otherwise acquired by the Germans and Italians. This is a risk Britain has to take. Churchill can either risk the possibility of that fleet being used to take control of the Mediterranean, or bolster the German navy, and leave it be. Or, he can sink it, and make sure of it never falling into German hands, at the cost of being hated by the French, who, so far, have been defeated anyway. It's insurance against the possibility. You don't take out car insurance only if you're absolutely sure of having a crash do you? You don't take out insurance on a house only if you're sure it's going to burn down or get flooded. That's the idea of insurance. It's there in case it happens. Sinking the French was the logical solution. That fleet could have ended up under German command. Churchill, or anyone else in the British top brass, might not have been able to explain how the fleet would be taken, but there was that looming possibility that somehow, just somehow, that fleet would be used to defeat the British in the Mediterranean. So what better way to ensure it didn't than to sink it yourself? The French were defeated, no longer an official British ally. Just getting the French to say "we'll never give the Germans the fleet" wouldn't have been enough, it wasn't a sensible risk.

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Uranprojekt #165 Posted 25 February 2016 - 10:40 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 25 February 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

Does it not seem like a move you'd make though? Britain is alone. It has no allies. At all. There is a big French fleet in North Africa. The British need control of the Mediterranean, without it their colonies there are lost and the armies stationed there too. There is a possibility, however small, that the French fleet could be commandeered, captured, turned over or otherwise acquired by the Germans and Italians. This is a risk Britain has to take. Churchill can either risk the possibility of that fleet being used to take control of the Mediterranean, or bolster the German navy, and leave it be. Or, he can sink it, and make sure of it never falling into German hands, at the cost of being hated by the French, who, so far, have been defeated anyway. It's insurance against the possibility. You don't take out car insurance only if you're absolutely sure of having a crash do you? You don't take out insurance on a house only if you're sure it's going to burn down or get flooded. That's the idea of insurance. It's there in case it happens. Sinking the French was the logical solution. That fleet could have ended up under German command. Churchill, or anyone else in the British top brass, might not have been able to explain how the fleet would be taken, but there was that looming possibility that somehow, just somehow, that fleet would be used to defeat the British in the Mediterranean. So what better way to ensure it didn't than to sink it yourself? The French were defeated, no longer an official British ally. Just getting the French to say "we'll never give the Germans the fleet" wouldn't have been enough, it wasn't a sensible risk.

 

No, it's not a move I'd make.

 

If the Germans could somehow commandeer a French fleet in the Mediterranean, could the British also not have done the same? The British had already commandeered French ships in Portsmouth, it's not a huge stretch to imagine that British would be able to commandeer the French ships in the Med. Then, lo and behold, the Royal Navy's presence in the Med has just been bolstered by at least four capital ships.

 

Also, the French Empire wasn't defeated in its entirety, only France surrendered. The French colonies, such as French Algeria, were still very much French and still part of the French war effort (let's not forget the French Army of Africa which assisted in the liberation of France in 1944).


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Matthew J35U5 #166 Posted 25 February 2016 - 11:17 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 25 February 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Britain is alone. It has no allies. 

-.-

 

If this is all the thanks we get, I vote that in WW3 we stay home and let Britain go to prom with her new friends. 

 

 

 

 

I think its interesting that no-one has considered the possibilities that a) Fighting the french could result in Britain losing ships it couldn't afford, e.g. The two Dunquerque-class battleships sinking one or more of the Queen Elizabeth's that were sent to destroy them, or b) that acts of war towards the French would result in L'État Français joining Germany as an ally, and willingly using its fleet to aid them. With that in mind, if the French say they want to stay neutral, letting them be doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Sqn Ldr B #167 Posted 25 February 2016 - 11:24 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 25 February 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

-.-

 

If this is all the thanks we get, I vote that in WW3 we stay home and let Britain go to prom with her new friends. 

 

Fine. Britain has no allies that aren't commonwealth or dominions.

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Matthew J35U5 #168 Posted 26 February 2016 - 12:16 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 25 February 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

 

Fine. Britain has no allies that aren't commonwealth or dominions.

 

*lights match*

Are you trying to minimize Poland's contribution to the the British war effort?

*throws match and dives for cover*

 

Spoiler

 

 

 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Party Poison91 #169 Posted 26 February 2016 - 01:51 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 26 February 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

 

*lights match*

Are you trying to minimize Poland's contribution to the the British war effort?

*throws match and dives for cover*

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Please don't summon him. I don't want to hear again about how Poland won the war.
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Sqn Ldr B #170 Posted 26 February 2016 - 07:13 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 26 February 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

 

*lights match*

Are you trying to minimize Poland's contribution to the the British war effort?

*throws match and dives for cover*

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Eh. Poland, first to fight. First to surrender too.

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Comjam1998 #171 Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:59 AM

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It's sad how this thread has just died. It had so much promise too.
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mrcrazylady1963 #172 Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:18 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 08 December 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

I know there are a good few of you who love a good argue on this place. So let's have a debating society shall we?

 

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Yeah nah yeah! Am I too late to join? Looks like the correct room for prickly bits. I am re-learning history that was incorrectly taught at school so this could be good. I go back to Flavius Josephus and have advanced through to Australian Invasion so am padded up , bat raised and feet ready to shuffle fwd accross or back, all fruit for the scoreboard. No helmuts, gloves off! It is a gentlemans sport...history is the only winner, the winner eats the dinner!

robertthred #173 Posted 09 March 2017 - 02:09 AM

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Most forumers would make for a boring debate. "Git gud" is their answer to most questions.

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mrcrazylady1963 #174 Posted 14 March 2017 - 01:12 PM

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View Postrobertthred, on 09 March 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

Most forumers would make for a boring debate. "Git gud" is their answer to most questions.

 

Crikey! Where does a country boy go for a good squat and yarn and after the war?




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