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DieHardELOFan86 Honorable German of Wehrmacht Forces Kriegsmarine (Navy).

hans langsdorff

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Sqn Ldr B #41 Posted 21 December 2015 - 09:23 AM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 21 December 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

Did you ever heard of U.S. American saying "the victors always write the story." besides you would be surprise how bad U.S. American Education is... 

No I wouldn't.

View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 21 December 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

And I am saying he is... You may not agree with it but what I find about him was honorable and that he was in hopeless situation and that odds were stack up against him.

And then he fell for a bluff got his ship and crew interned and shot himself? Which part was honourable again?

View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 21 December 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

 I am sure you would have done something entirely different if you were in his shoes... 

Yep. I'd have done exactly what Langsdorff did except I'd leave out the suicide bit.


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Matthew J35U5 #42 Posted 21 December 2015 - 02:33 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

So how was he honourable again?

Because he followed the minimum expectations laid out for armed combatents. Which was unusual. 

View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

 

Exactly and you should know this but there was British movie about him and famous Battle of River Plate it is called The Battle of the River Plate.

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

"This" is me saying that Langsdorff did not commit war crimes and he adhered to the laws of war like anyone should do and therefore he didn't do anything notably honourable.

I was never taught that. I thought it was just generally accepted among most people that not every single German was a Nazi. And even a lot of actual Nazis didn't commit war crimes. Have you been living under a rock for the last 70 years? Because I thought society had already established not all Germans were Nazis and not all Germans committed war crimes. Not committing war crimes shouldn't be a notable thing.

Why are we bringing the Jews into this? Does Langsdorff not having a hatred of Jews make him honourable? Just like most people in the world? Not hating Jews isn't a particularly notable thing, it's the general trend.

But most people thought fair. Why does Langsdorff get the hero treatment? He didn't do anything notable other than lose a battle, fall for a bluff, get his ship and crew interned and then shoot himself.

I had learned that not being a Nazi was not a defence against any wrongdoing, and not personally committing war crimes doesn't mean you're a decent guy. I would have had the entire Wehrmacht high command charged for crimes against Peace at Nuremberg (as in, literally all of them, instead of picking ~12 to make examples of). 

 

And I wouldn't have seen a reason to commute the sentences of war criminals, which reasonably gives the impression to the Soviets that we were don't give a damn about the crimes the war criminals had committed, for the most part against the Soviets. 

 

But this is just a tangent, where all I'm really saying is that I have a broad definition of those that supported the Nazis, and I may have a very harsh sense of justice. 

View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

Did you ever heard of U.S. American saying "the victors always write the story." besides you would be surprise how bad U.S. American Education is... They don't bother to teach us about certain commanders in our schools. You are left with that to find out on your own if interested.

 

That is what I did I was left on my own to find out for myself.

 

 

And I am saying he is... You may not agree with it but what I find about him was honorable and that he was in hopeless situation and that odds were stack up against him. I am sure you would have done something entirely different if you were in his shoes... For example taking Admiral Graf Spee out to sea and possibility never seeing Germany again with current state that damage the Graf Spee is in.

 

Even if you survive the battle outside the harbor you sustain even further damage to the ship now imagine the worse possibility you still have to face more British naval ships that will be hunting you and R.A.F searching for you while badly damage Graf Spee is onroute going back to Germany and there is no way you can manage past that even if you sneak all way across to avoid being detected.

 

And if you do... You had lot of luck on your side but still remember German Battleship Bismarck tried that once and she couldn't shake them off.

Ironically, the Americans literally had the Germans write the history of the eastern front for them. Hence all of the myths about how the Germans were outnumbered 10:1, lost because of the winter, Hitler caused all of the mistakes, etc. 

 

Spoiler

 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Matthew J35U5 #43 Posted 21 December 2015 - 02:40 PM

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Also, I thought that the posts attacking the OP for things he has said in the past were in poor taste. I also can be critical of what people write, but it isn't appropriate to hold grudges against them. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


DieHardELOFan86 #44 Posted 31 December 2015 - 09:41 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 21 December 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

Because he followed the minimum expectations laid out for armed combatents. Which was unusual.

 

I had learned that not being a Nazi was not a defence against any wrongdoing, and not personally committing war crimes doesn't mean you're a decent guy. I would have had the entire Wehrmacht high command charged for crimes against Peace at Nuremberg (as in, literally all of them, instead of picking ~12 to make examples of).

 

And I wouldn't have seen a reason to commute the sentences of war criminals, which reasonably gives the impression to the Soviets that we were don't give a damn about the crimes the war criminals had committed, for the most part against the Soviets.

 

But this is just a tangent, where all I'm really saying is that I have a broad definition of those that supported the Nazis, and I may have a very harsh sense of justice.

Ironically, the Americans literally had the Germans write the history of the eastern front for them. Hence all of the myths about how the Germans were outnumbered 10:1, lost because of the winter, Hitler caused all of the mistakes, etc.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I read that Heinz Guderian and Hitler didn't get along very well it came to the point where two would get into heated debate to the point shouting how Germany was doing in the war. There has been several times where Heinz was relieved from duty only to be recalled back because Hitler's plan was FUBAR.

 

Tell you the truth honestly if I was leader of Germany at that time I would listen to my Generals and Admirals.


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Matthew J35U5 #45 Posted 31 December 2015 - 09:47 PM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 31 December 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

 

I read that Heinz Guderian and Hitler didn't get along very well it came to the point where two would get into heated debate to the point shouting how Germany was doing in the war. There has been several times where Heinz was relieved from duty only to be recalled back because Hitler's plan was FUBAR.

 

Tell you the truth honestly if I was leader of Germany at that time I would listen to my Generals and Admirals.

They mostly were in arguments after Guderien was made head of the german general staff, which mostly covered the time period where it didn't really matter what orders were issued, the Soviets were coming anyway. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


tbown2 #46 Posted 11 January 2016 - 02:32 PM

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View PostX1thebeast29X, on 19 December 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Suicide is a cowardly way out.

I guess my fathers brother who hung himself was clearly just a coward


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Comjam1998 #47 Posted 12 January 2016 - 02:41 AM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 19 December 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

Says someone who never has been a Captain of the ship. It's always a tradition to go down with the ship if some people onboard cannot get off to survive so in a way Captain Langsdorff saw this with those German sailors who lost their lives he felt that they were still onboard (even though they were buried in cemetery) he felt it was right thing go down with the ship and understood it but he was talk out of it.

 

Also Japanese taught that death was glorious and that surrendering was dishonorable.

 

I agree with you there, the tradition of the Captain going down with his ship, however stupid, was a common tradition in the past. Personally though, if I were in his position, I would've just attempted to bash my way out of port, trying to take as many British cruisers with me as I could.
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Matthew J35U5 #48 Posted 12 January 2016 - 05:20 AM

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Yeah, get the 1000-odd men under your command killed in a futile fight. What a hero you would be. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Comjam1998 #49 Posted 12 January 2016 - 10:37 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 11 January 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

Yeah, get the 1000-odd men under your command killed in a futile fight. What a hero you would be. 

 

Now that I think about it, your right. Sometimes I don't think and make very stupid comments. :facepalm: To be fair though, I'm pretty sure that the Grafs Spee could have broken out of port, despite the technical difficulties she was experiencing.
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Sqn Ldr B #50 Posted 12 January 2016 - 10:53 PM

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View PostComjam1998, on 12 January 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

 

Now that I think about it, your right. Sometimes I don't think and make very stupid comments. :facepalm: To be fair though, I'm pretty sure that the Grafs Spee could have broken out of port, despite the technical difficulties she was experiencing.

 

Doubt it. Graf Spee versus the Achilles, Ajax, and Cumberland, as well as the Renown, Ark Royal, Shropshire, Dorsetshire and Neptune en route. Albeit a long while away, but on their way.

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Comjam1998 #51 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:13 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 12 January 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

 

Doubt it. Graf Spee versus the Achilles, Ajax, and Cumberland, as well as the Renown, Ark Royal, Shropshire, Dorsetshire and Neptune en route. Albeit a long while away, but on their way.

 

Again, when I watched Victory at Sea, they talked about a British deception plan to make the Germans think there were more ships than there actually were. This made me think that nobody but those Cruiser stood in the Germans way. My mistake.
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Sqn Ldr B #52 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:20 PM

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View PostComjam1998, on 12 January 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

 

Again, when I watched Victory at Sea, they talked about a British deception plan to make the Germans think there were more ships than there actually were. This made me think that nobody but those Cruiser stood in the Germans way. My mistake.

 

Well, at that time, only the three Cruisers were there, and they did circulate rumours of Force H (Renown and Ark Royal) being on its way, but those other ones, Dorsetshire et al, were assembling at the Falklands.

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Comjam1998 #53 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:33 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 12 January 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

 

Well, at that time, only the three Cruisers were there, and they did circulate rumours of Force H (Renown and Ark Royal) being on its way, but those other ones, Dorsetshire et al, were assembling at the Falklands.

 

I never knew that. Thank you for informing me. :)
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