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hans langsdorff

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DieHardELOFan86 #21 Posted 20 December 2015 - 05:43 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

So how was he honourable again?

"Witnesses from both sides saw that Langsdorff adhered to the Hague Conventions and avoided killing anyone, his humane treatment won the respect of the ships' officers detained as his prisoners."


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Sqn Ldr B #22 Posted 20 December 2015 - 05:59 PM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

"Witnesses from both sides saw that Langsdorff adhered to the Hague Conventions and avoided killing anyone, his humane treatment won the respect of the ships' officers detained as his prisoners."

 

So essentially what you're saying is he was honourable because he wasn't a raving Nazi war criminal?

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Radica1Cat #23 Posted 20 December 2015 - 06:01 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

So how was he honourable again?

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

So essentially what you're saying is he was honourable because he wasn't a raving Nazi war criminal?
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Uranprojekt #24 Posted 20 December 2015 - 06:29 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

 

So essentially what you're saying is he was honourable because he wasn't a raving Nazi war criminal?

 

Technically speaking, Langsdorff was a criminal. He received no direct order to scuttle the Admiral Graf Spee which means his decision to do so could be considered an act of barratry. An act of barratry, in admiralty law, is an act of gross misconduct and to scuttle a ship without being ordered to do so is an act of misconduct. Knowing that what he had done was an act of barratry, it is entirely possible that Langsdorff was merely avoiding a military tribunal upon returning to Germany and simply skipped right ahead to self-administering the punishment he would have probably gotten for his crime. He cut out the middle man, so to speak.


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DieHardELOFan86 #25 Posted 20 December 2015 - 06:30 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

 

So essentially what you're saying is he was honourable because he wasn't a raving Nazi war criminal?

 

Exactly and you should know this but there was British movie about him and famous Battle of River Plate it is called The Battle of the River Plate.

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Sqn Ldr B #26 Posted 20 December 2015 - 06:45 PM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

 

Exactly and you should know this but there was British movie about him and famous Battle of River Plate it is called The Battle of the River Plate.

 

How was that honourable? A large portion of people in the German armed forces were not raving mad Nazi war criminals. Everyone on the allied side were not raving mad Nazi war criminals, although there were some war criminals. Langsdorff did nothing that set him apart from the millions of other non-raving mad Nazi war criminals. I personally don't see anything especially honourable about Langsdorff other than the fact he didn't commit war crimes, which is something expected of everyone anyway. You shouldn't get praised for not committing a crime.

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Aschenblume #27 Posted 20 December 2015 - 06:48 PM

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Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz von Groß-Zauche was also a German hero.

Saved alot of the German Army Group North in the Baltics.

 

Or Otto Carius.

 

Or the Luftwaffe pilot who escorted a crippled B-17 to friendly airspace.

 

There are a lot of German Heros in the war thats for sure.


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Aschenblume #28 Posted 20 December 2015 - 06:51 PM

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View PostX1thebeast29X, on 19 December 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

Suicide is a cowardly way out.

 

You must be glad youve never had a loved one who suffered from depression and sadly took their life.

 

But Im not going to debate something that cant be debated. And I will not be suckered into a arguement. the moderators will handle you.


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DieHardELOFan86 #29 Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:16 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

 

How was that honourable? A large portion of people in the German armed forces were not raving mad Nazi war criminals. Everyone on the allied side were not raving mad Nazi war criminals, although there were some war criminals. Langsdorff did nothing that set him apart from the millions of other non-raving mad Nazi war criminals. I personally don't see anything especially honourable about Langsdorff other than the fact he didn't commit war crimes, which is something expected of everyone anyway. You shouldn't get praised for not committing a crime.

 

Would you rather see your enemy fighting fair and not committing war crimes instead of enemy who will commit war crimes and next thing you know they have a date with the hanging.

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Sqn Ldr B #30 Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:20 PM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

 

Would you rather see your enemy fighting fair and not committing war crimes instead of enemy who will commit war crimes and next thing you know they have a date with the hanging.

 

Yes, I would rather see the enemy fighting fair. Because that's how they should be fighting. Says so in the Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention. People aren't honourable for sticking to the rules. Langsdorff did nothing that was notably honourable.

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DieHardELOFan86 #31 Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:30 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

 

Yes, I would rather see the enemy fighting fair. Because that's how they should be fighting. Says so in the Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention. People aren't honourable for sticking to the rules. Langsdorff did nothing that was notably honourable.

 

Are you saying he's war criminal now?

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Uranprojekt #32 Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:32 PM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:

 

Are you saying he's war criminal now?

 

Are you making false accusations?

 

Yes.

 

Did Sqn say that Langsdorff was a war criminal?

 

No, he said that Langsdorff fought fair and stuck to rules. You, sir, are jumping to (the wrong) conclusions.


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Sqn Ldr B #33 Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:50 PM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:

 

Are you saying he's war criminal now?

 

And at that point, Sqn Ldr B gave up on the world.

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DieHardELOFan86 #34 Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:55 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 20 December 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

 

Are you making false accusations?

 

Yes.

 

Did Sqn say that Langsdorff was a war criminal?

 

No, he said that Langsdorff fought fair and stuck to rules. You, sir, are jumping to (the wrong) conclusions.

Then what is this.

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

 

Yes, I would rather see the enemy fighting fair. Because that's how they should be fighting. Says so in the Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention. People aren't honourable for sticking to the rules. Langsdorff did nothing that was notably honourable.

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

 

How was that honourable? A large portion of people in the German armed forces were not raving mad Nazi war criminals. Everyone on the allied side were not raving mad Nazi war criminals, although there were some war criminals. Langsdorff did nothing that set him apart from the millions of other non-raving mad Nazi war criminals. I personally don't see anything especially honourable about Langsdorff other than the fact he didn't commit war crimes, which is something expected of everyone anyway. You shouldn't get praised for not committing a crime.

 

Reason I say Langsdorff was honorable officer is because back then we were taught that anyone wearing that uniform, fighting under Nazi rule or giving Nazi salute were simply judge as Nazis. Then one day some of us wake up from bullsh!t and realize holy sh!t this guy didn't commit any war crimes is it true? Yes he didn't. I may have fallen under certain spell of magic that these Germans release and convinced me that not everyone in Germany was a Nazi.

 

Or perhaps I may have fallen under anti-semitism... You know some people narrow-minded to judge you quickly... Especially a Jewish person saw this thread. However I like to prove them wrong that I didn't fall for anti-semitism because how would Non-Aryan like me supporting Nazi cause?

 

I look at word honor as proud word given to those who fought fair.


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Sqn Ldr B #35 Posted 21 December 2015 - 12:05 AM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Then what is this.

"This" is me saying that Langsdorff did not commit war crimes and he adhered to the laws of war like anyone should do and therefore he didn't do anything notably honourable.

View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Reason I say Langsdorff was honorable officer is because back then we were taught that anyone wearing that uniform, fighting under Nazi rule or giving Nazi salute were simply judge as Nazis. Then one day some of us wake up from bullsh!t and realize holy sh!t this guy didn't commit any war crimes is it true? Yes he didn't. I may have fallen under certain spell of magic that these Germans release and convinced me that not everyone in Germany was a Nazi.

I was never taught that. I thought it was just generally accepted among most people that not every single German was a Nazi. And even a lot of actual Nazis didn't commit war crimes. Have you been living under a rock for the last 70 years? Because I thought society had already established not all Germans were Nazis and not all Germans committed war crimes. Not committing war crimes shouldn't be a notable thing.

View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Or perhaps I may have fallen under anti-semitism... You know some people narrow-minded to judge you quickly... Especially a Jewish person saw this thread. However I like to prove them wrong that I didn't fall for anti-semitism because how would Non-Aryan like me supporting Nazi cause?

Why are we bringing the Jews into this? Does Langsdorff not having a hatred of Jews make him honourable? Just like most people in the world? Not hating Jews isn't a particularly notable thing, it's the general trend.

View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

I look at word honor as proud word given to those who fought fair.

But most people thought fair. Why does Langsdorff get the hero treatment? He didn't do anything notable other than lose a battle, fall for a bluff, get his ship and crew interned and then shoot himself.


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Uranprojekt #36 Posted 21 December 2015 - 12:07 AM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 20 December 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Then what is this.

 

 

 

Reason I say Langsdorff was honorable officer is because back then we were taught that anyone wearing that uniform, fighting under Nazi rule or giving Nazi salute were simply judge as Nazis. Then one day some of us wake up from bullsh!t and realize holy sh!t this guy didn't commit any war crimes is it true? Yes he didn't. I may have fallen under certain spell of magic that these Germans release and convinced me that not everyone in Germany was a Nazi.

 

Or perhaps I may have fallen under anti-semitism... You know some people narrow-minded to judge you quickly... Especially a Jewish person saw this thread. However I like to prove them wrong that I didn't fall for anti-semitism because how would Non-Aryan like me supporting Nazi cause?

 

I look at word honor as proud word given to those who fought fair.

 

What in the name of Lenin are you on about?

 

Sqn Ldr B, at no point, said that Langsdorff was a war criminal. His statements all support his belief that Langsdorff wasn't as honourable as you are making him out to be. Not being honourable and being a Nazi and/or a war criminal are not the same thing. If you would read things as they are presented instead of looking for context that isn't there and jumping to entirely the wrong conclusions, we wouldn't have this problem.

 

I will this again for clarity; Sqn Ldr B did not accuse Langsdorff of being a war criminal.


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I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

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DieHardELOFan86 #37 Posted 21 December 2015 - 02:29 AM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 20 December 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

"This" is me saying that Langsdorff did not commit war crimes and he adhered to the laws of war like anyone should do and therefore he didn't do anything notably honourable.

I was never taught that. I thought it was just generally accepted among most people that not every single German was a Nazi. And even a lot of actual Nazis didn't commit war crimes. Have you been living under a rock for the last 70 years? Because I thought society had already established not all Germans were Nazis and not all Germans committed war crimes. Not committing war crimes shouldn't be a notable thing.

Why are we bringing the Jews into this? Does Langsdorff not having a hatred of Jews make him honourable? Just like most people in the world? Not hating Jews isn't a particularly notable thing, it's the general trend.

But most people thought fair. Why does Langsdorff get the hero treatment? He didn't do anything notable other than lose a battle, fall for a bluff, get his ship and crew interned and then shoot himself.

Did you ever heard of U.S. American saying "the victors always write the story." besides you would be surprise how bad U.S. American Education is... They don't bother to teach us about certain commanders in our schools. You are left with that to find out on your own if interested.

 

That is what I did I was left on my own to find out for myself.

 

View PostUranprojekt, on 20 December 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

 

What in the name of Lenin are you on about?

 

Sqn Ldr B, at no point, said that Langsdorff was a war criminal. His statements all support his belief that Langsdorff wasn't as honourable as you are making him out to be. Not being honourable and being a Nazi and/or a war criminal are not the same thing. If you would read things as they are presented instead of looking for context that isn't there and jumping to entirely the wrong conclusions, we wouldn't have this problem.

 

I will this again for clarity; Sqn Ldr B did not accuse Langsdorff of being a war criminal.

 

And I am saying he is... You may not agree with it but what I find about him was honorable and that he was in hopeless situation and that odds were stack up against him. I am sure you would have done something entirely different if you were in his shoes... For example taking Admiral Graf Spee out to sea and possibility never seeing Germany again with current state that damage the Graf Spee is in.

 

Even if you survive the battle outside the harbor you sustain even further damage to the ship now imagine the worse possibility you still have to face more British naval ships that will be hunting you and R.A.F searching for you while badly damage Graf Spee is onroute going back to Germany and there is no way you can manage past that even if you sneak all way across to avoid being detected.

 

And if you do... You had lot of luck on your side but still remember German Battleship Bismarck tried that once and she couldn't shake them off.

 

 


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Uranprojekt #38 Posted 21 December 2015 - 02:49 AM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 21 December 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

Did you ever heard of U.S. American saying "the victors always write the story." besides you would be surprise how bad U.S. American Education is... They don't bother to teach us about certain commanders in our schools. You are left with that to find out on your own if interested.

 

That is what I did I was left on my own to find out for myself.

 

 

And I am saying he is... You may not agree with it but what I find about him was honorable and that he was in hopeless situation and that odds were stack up against him. I am sure you would have done something entirely different if you were in his shoes... For example taking Admiral Graf Spee out to sea and possibility never seeing Germany again with current state that damage the Graf Spee is in.

 

Even if you survive the battle outside the harbor you sustain even further damage to the ship now imagine the worse possibility you still have to face more British naval ships that will be hunting you and R.A.F searching for you while badly damage Graf Spee is onroute going back to Germany and there is no way you can manage past that even if you sneak all way across to avoid being detected.

 

And if you do... You had lot of luck on your side but still remember German Battleship Bismarck tried that once and she couldn't shake them off.

 

 

 

This isn't about me or what I would have done in the situation that befell the Admiral Graf Spee, this is about you making unfounded claims that Sqn said something when he clearly didn't. Seriously, stop spouting such irrelevant nonsense and changing the subject.


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I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

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DieHardELOFan86 #39 Posted 21 December 2015 - 02:51 AM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 20 December 2015 - 08:49 PM, said:

 

This isn't about me or what I would have done in the situation that befell the Admiral Graf Spee, this is about you making unfounded claims that Sqn said something when he clearly didn't. Seriously, stop spouting such irrelevant nonsense and changing the subject.

 

Okay I didn't understand so he was confusing me. He could have simply put he wasn't war criminal.

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Uranprojekt #40 Posted 21 December 2015 - 03:45 AM

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View PostDieHardELOFan86, on 21 December 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

 

Okay I didn't understand so he was confusing me. He could have simply put he wasn't war criminal.

 

It was stated multiple times that Sqn Ldr B wasn't saying that Langsdorff was a war criminal. If you don't understand something then you ask for clarification, you don't accuse a person of saying something that they didn't say or even imply.

 

On a slightly unrelated note, the "history is written by the victors" trueism is attributed to multiple authors; Machiavelli, Churchill and Orwell, to name a few; but nobody is quite sure who actually said it first. The saying, however, predates America by centuries and comes from a time when warring tribes would meet in battle following which one tribe's victory was so overwhelming that the defeated tribe would be wiped out, leaving nobody to tell their side of the story. The victors would be the only ones left alive who could give an account of the battle, hence "history is written by the victors."


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/





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