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The Sherman and The Cat


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Turboclicker #1 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:07 PM

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Which was better? The Tiger, or the M4 Sherman? This is assuming we are talking about the 45' variants and not the 42' variants. 

 

Please support your pick with facts and statistics or at least well thought out arguments.



Sqn Ldr B #2 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:11 PM

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Tiger. Source:
http://forum-console...uld-be-tier-vi/

 

You're beating this to death, now stop banging on about it, you're making yourself look a complete prat.


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Turboclicker #3 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:15 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 01 January 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

Tiger. Source:
http://forum-console...uld-be-tier-vi/

 

You're beating this to death, now stop banging on about it, you're making yourself look a complete prat.

 

I don't even know what one of those is.

 

Just because you don't like talking about it doesn't mean others won't. If you have nothing meaningful to add, please remove yourself from the thread.



Metalrodent #4 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:18 PM

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Why can't we talk about the 1942 variants?

 

You keep going on about how the M4 with the 76mm could take a Tiger down (not arguing, it could) but the fact is for the duration of the war the Tiger was superior in armour, survivability and firepower to 75mm armed M4s and could easily take them down.

Tiger was always mechanically poor though, so in that case the M4 was much better.

 

 


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Sqn Ldr B #5 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:20 PM

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View PostTurboclicker, on 01 January 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

 

I don't even know what one of those is.

 

Just because you don't like talking about it doesn't mean others won't. If you have nothing meaningful to add, please remove yourself from the thread.

 

prat
prat/
noun
informal
 
1.
BRITISH
an incompetent or stupid person; an idiot.
 
 

 

 

I'll go now.


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Metalrodent #6 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:27 PM

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Also, if you do want to discuss 1945 then yes the Sherman with a 76mmgun could take down a Tiger frontally, however what that would rely on is that 76mm ammo was actually available.

 

Major Paul A Bane, 2nd Armored Division - March 1945 US Army report

Our tank crews have had some success with the HVAP 76mm ammunition. However at no time have we been able to secure more than five rounds per tank and in recent actions this has been reduced to a maximum of two rounds, and in many tanks all this type has been expended without being replaced


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WidowMaker1711 #7 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:48 PM

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View PostMetalrodent, on 01 January 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

Why can't we talk about the 1942 variants?

 

You keep going on about how the M4 with the 76mm could take a Tiger down (not arguing, it could) but the fact is for the duration of the war the Tiger was superior in armour, survivability and firepower to 75mm armed M4s and could easily take them down.

Tiger was always mechanically poor though, so in that case the M4 was much better.

 

 

 

Read Tigers in the Mud. Otto Carius is very clear on the subject of the Tigers mechanical reliabilty. Mostly the Tiger needed to be driven slower than its prescribed top speed. Needed a well trained driver who showed the right levels of caution. Needed keeping away from anything that might explode anywhere near the Radiators. They also needed a fantastic maintanence crew and should only be operated in conjunction with infantry.


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JAG THE GEMINI #8 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:50 PM

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@Turboclicker. You must be trollin... I can already feel it... 

 

 

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Sqn Ldr B #9 Posted 01 January 2016 - 10:51 PM

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View PostJAG THE GEMINI, on 01 January 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

@Turboclicker. You must be trollin... I can already feel it... 

 

Yup.

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RUNNINGDUDE1 #10 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:09 PM

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View PostJAG THE GEMINI, on 01 January 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

@Turboclicker. You must be trollin... I can already feel it...

 

Turbo doesn't always troll...oh wait.

Terminatenorsn5 #11 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:14 PM

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What I don't understand is if the Easy 8 in "Fury" could pen the Tiger I frontally, why did Wardaddy not pick off the Tiger at long range instead of rushing him?

 

 



Metalrodent #12 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:19 PM

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View PostTerminatenorsn5, on 01 January 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

What I don't understand is if the Easy 8 in "Fury" could pen the Tiger I frontally, why did Wardaddy not pick off the Tiger at long range instead of rushing him?

 

 

 

Lol don't even question that scene, the Tiger would never have left the bush let alone pull out and sit in the middle of a field for no reason

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Party Poison91 #13 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:19 PM

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View PostTerminatenorsn5, on 01 January 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

What I don't understand is if the Easy 8 in "Fury" could pen the Tiger I frontally, why did Wardaddy not pick off the Tiger at long range instead of rushing him?

 

 

Same reason that there was one tiger, all alone in a field with no infantry support. Because the movie was complete bollocks.


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Turboclicker #14 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:25 PM

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View PostMetalrodent, on 01 January 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

Also, if you do want to discuss 1945 then yes the Sherman with a 76mmgun could take down a Tiger frontally, however what that would rely on is that 76mm ammo was actually available.

 

 

HVAP was not needed under 800m IIRC from multiple sources.



Turboclicker #15 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:26 PM

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View PostJAG THE GEMINI, on 01 January 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

@Turboclicker. You must be trollin... I can already feel it... 

 

View PostSqn Ldr B, on 01 January 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

 

Yup.

 

View PostRUNNINGDUDE1, on 01 January 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

 

Turbo doesn't always troll...oh wait.

 

Not trolling, make sure to lie to yourself though.



Crazedtiger77 #16 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:31 PM

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Here's Turbo's original comment which resulted in the argument in the other thread:

Turboclicker, on 30 December 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

 The Tiger wasn't even good in real life, why would it be good here?* 

 

The Tiger was very good at what it was supposed to do: to destroy tanks. Whilst it was disastrous from an economic standpoint, the Tiger did its job very well and so was 'good' in real life.

View PostTurboclicker, on 01 January 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

Which was better? The Tiger, or the M4 Sherman? This is assuming we are talking about the 45' variants and not the 42' variants. 

 

Please support your pick with facts and statistics or at least well thought out arguments.

This is a rather silly question if it's just 1945 as during WWII, rapid tank development resulted in tanks becoming obsolete very quickly. Tanks like the Tiger and Matilda II couldn't be substantially upgraded and so whilst very effective against the tanks they first saw combat against, two years later they should have been phased out. For the Germans, this was impossible due to obvious reasons. Of course the Tiger was at a disadvantage to the Easy Eight in 1945 but in 1942, it was better than the early Shermans. These 75mm Shermans were the vast majority, so the Tiger was better than most Shermans even in 1945.



Turboclicker #17 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:35 PM

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I found this engagement report to be highly entertaining.

 



Crazedtiger77 #18 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:40 PM

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View PostTurboclicker, on 01 January 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

I found this engagement report to be highly entertaining.

 

 

I would expect you of all people to realise this is confirmation bias in action.



Turboclicker #19 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:42 PM

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View PostCrazedtiger77, on 01 January 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

I would expect you of all people to realise this is confirmation bias in action.

 

I am not using it as an end all. I'm using it as a "Hey look, Shermans killed Panthers and Tigers."



Crazedtiger77 #20 Posted 01 January 2016 - 11:46 PM

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View PostTurboclicker, on 01 January 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

 

I am not using it as an end all. I'm using it as a "Hey look, Shermans killed Panthers and Tigers."

 

That is true and I for one never denied such things happened. As the saying goes, throw enough mud at a wall and some of it will stick so even the inferior (in the anti tank role) tank will win some engagements. These are often due to poor positioning on behalf of the Tigers where they allowed the Shermans to get close enough to defeat their armour yet this doesn't mean they were bad tanks, just badly used.





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