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1946 - Hitler's Super Tanks vs Western Armour


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MrWuvems #41 Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:48 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 06 January 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

 

Yeah, offhand jokes and flippant remarks don't tend to go down too well around here. I thought you'd have known that by now... :P

 

If being flippant is considered a character flaw around here I would have been run out of town years ago

Matthew J35U5 #42 Posted 06 January 2016 - 04:31 PM

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View PostMrWuvems, on 06 January 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

 

If being flippant is considered a character flaw around here I would have been run out of town years ago

I thought that was why you only post from your PS4 account now. :trollface:


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


MrWuvems #43 Posted 06 January 2016 - 04:35 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 06 January 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

I thought that was why you only post from your PS4 account now. :trollface:

 

I said years, not months

Comjam1998 #44 Posted 14 January 2016 - 03:40 AM

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View PostMrWuvems, on 04 January 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

The super-heavies get mired in wherever their massive bulk gets them stuck and annihilated by allied air power

 

They might do real wells as mobile bunkers though. 
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Section47ABH #45 Posted 14 January 2016 - 07:58 PM

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View PostComjam1998, on 14 January 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

 

They might do real wells as mobile bunkers though. 

 

... right after the phase of the war when pillboxes and other fixed fortifications had become, if not obsolete, severely deprecated because the weapons to crack them open became man-portable?  
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Matthew J35U5 #46 Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:55 AM

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View PostSection47ABH, on 14 January 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

 

... right after the phase of the war when pillboxes and other fixed fortifications had become, if not obsolete, severely deprecated because the weapons to crack them open became man-portable?  

 

To be fair to the Maus, man-portable weapons that could penetrate (at least) 200 mm of steel armour didn't exist. Excluding sub-calibers, wouldn't the Maus's armour only be vulnerable to the Jagdtiger gun, the Bl-9, and Bl-10?

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


SlummyZeru #47 Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:40 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 14 January 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

 

To be fair to the Maus, man-portable weapons that could penetrate (at least) 200 mm of steel armour didn't exist. Excluding sub-calibers, wouldn't the Maus's armour only be vulnerable to the Jagdtiger gun, the Bl-9, and Bl-10?

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

I think best bet for man portable weapons to kill a maus type bunker would be if allies got ahold of a panzfaust 30,60 or 100 which could punch through about 200mm armor apparently if they hit turret but since those numbers are how far the shot can go doubt anyone the first 2 variants could get in firing range while 100meter variant might tho he'd need good aim. Now the 150 variant which had 150mm range had apparent potential penetration of 28-320 which while they'd be rare could do job if allied soldier got lucky and got hands on one or some ammo for it.

 

Here link to it to see not lying btw.

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Panzerfaust

 

Yes i know what site it is but think it relevant to topic and personally think they chances above happening are slim and they'd prob order artillery to take it out.


 

o.o


Matthew J35U5 #48 Posted 15 January 2016 - 03:32 PM

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View PostSlummyZeru, on 15 January 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

 

I think best bet for man portable weapons to kill a maus type bunker would be if allies got ahold of a panzfaust 30,60 or 100 which could punch through about 200mm armor apparently if they hit turret but since those numbers are how far the shot can go doubt anyone the first 2 variants could get in firing range while 100meter variant might tho he'd need good aim. Now the 150 variant which had 150mm range had apparent potential penetration of 28-320 which while they'd be rare could do job if allied soldier got lucky and got hands on one or some ammo for it.

 

Here link to it to see not lying btw.

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Panzerfaust

 

Yes i know what site it is but think it relevant to topic and personally think they chances above happening are slim and they'd prob order artillery to take it out.

I can't find the citation for the listed penetration numbers themselves, so I can't really comment on their veracity. 

 

But if we assume that the listed values are perpendicular strikes, by German penetration standards, all but the 150 probably don't have enough penetration. They claim 200 mm, but the Pak 43 claims 200@30°, which is something like 10-20% more, and it probably couldn't penetrate a Maus. 

 

If the listed specifications for the 150 are accurate, then it certainly could, however: 

It seems strange that it has ~50% more penetration than the other models, while having a charge diameter of about 2/3's of the previous models. Yes, it supposedly has a more advanced warhead design, but I'm not sure that would be enough of an improvement to make up for the smaller warhead. (Diameter of the warhead being important because shaped charge penetration being proportional to the diameter of the charge)

 

However, it seems that HEAT warheads for tanks of about the same diameter were able to reach up to ~400 mm of penetration (in the postwar period), so I suppose it isn't implausible that the Germans could have done it. 

 

I suppose the two of you are right then, Maus is potentially vulnerable to infantry-portable weapons. 

 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Comjam1998 #49 Posted 17 January 2016 - 01:15 AM

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View PostSection47ABH, on 14 January 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

 

... right after the phase of the war when pillboxes and other fixed fortifications had become, if not obsolete, severely deprecated because the weapons to crack them open became man-portable?  

 

What I'm trying to say is that if you hid it in the rubble of a building or had it guard a street it might be able to do some damage.
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MrWuvems #50 Posted 17 January 2016 - 02:03 AM

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View PostComjam1998, on 16 January 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

 

What I'm trying to say is that if you hid it in the rubble of a building or had it guard a street it might be able to do some damage.

 

Imagine if they tried to bury it like they did with Panthers

Comjam1998 #51 Posted 17 January 2016 - 02:23 AM

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View PostMrWuvems, on 16 January 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

 

Imagine if they tried to bury it like they did with Panthers

 

True, the Maus would indeed be a very difficult vehicle to deploy. I'm just trying to imagine even one situation where it would be useful.
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Aschenblume #52 Posted 17 January 2016 - 02:25 AM

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Axis Powers would have to dominate the air for that to happen.

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Matthew J35U5 #53 Posted 17 January 2016 - 05:27 AM

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While we're talking about "super-guns" that could knock out any of the axis tanks:

 

So that's an 85L/70 that has a muzzle velocity of 1149 m/s, and a 107L/59 with a muzzle velocity of 1013 m/s. Estimated performance (using the Demarre equation) is 219 mm for the 85, and 217 mm for the 107, using the Soviet penetration standard. In WoT terms (using the 88L/71 as a reference), it would be 264 mm for the 85 mm, and 261 mm for the 107. 

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Nocturnal814 #54 Posted 17 January 2016 - 06:16 AM

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View PostSection47ABH, on 05 January 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:

 

Nope.  Allied air and indirect fire killed far more german armour than anything on treads did.  The third reich spent a lot of time whining that enemy air and artillery were OP...

 

 

 

yep, 17% combined between air power and artillery far exceeds what anything on treads did to other tanks...

Air and artillery power weren't really the threats to tanks in the way you think they might have been. Artillery was far more effective at killing infantry and denying the tanks the protection given by their infantry. Air power mostly destroyed the supplies the tanks relied on to advance.



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NSW Mntd Rifles #55 Posted 18 January 2016 - 05:06 AM

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View PostParty Poison91, on 05 January 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

Ok, I'll have a pop at this. 1946. Germany, on the verge of defeat, begins rolling out its tanks it had hidden in Denmark and pushes the allies out of its borders. Meanwhile in Russia there is a huge vodka shortage where the population had celebrated too early. People begin rioting and questioning wether stalin really could lead the country if he couldn't keep them inebriated. Stalin has to pull soviet forces back as they are plunged into a civil war. In America, president John Wayne is forced to abandon Europe as a far superior Mexican army begins the third battle of the Alamo, now Great Britain stands alone. Desperate for time, prime minister Roald Dahl begins sending wave upon wave of ungrateful colonials to slow the Germans. By 1947 the british super weapon was ready; the TOG III. Boasting 300mm of sloped armour on all sides and a 56 pounder gun it was more than a match for anything the Wehrmacht could throw at it but it also had one secret weapon. Italy, fearing the impact that german tanks could have when driving on their vineyards sent enzo Ferrari to help on the project. The TOG III now boasted 12 Ferrari super engines and was capable of speed of up to 56mph. With a fleet of just 12 of these tanks britain was able to destroy the Wehrmacht once and for all and prove that hitler was a very naughty man.

 

I'll conjecture that the ungrateful colonials were lured into Germany by propaganda advertising FREE BEER in Berlin and Munich. One battalion of beer crazy colonials with criminal ancestry were enough to destroy the Wehrmacht and their tanks.

 

I'm also suggesting that the occupation of Japan in 1945 led to an accelerated production of the "unbreakable" Toyota Hilux, which was capable of taking on any German super tank. Hilux squads mounting sophisticated anti-tank weapons captured Hitler and his staff then drove the Russians back to the Volga. https://www.youtube....?v=1Sn9L94YrNk 



Matthew J35U5 #56 Posted 18 January 2016 - 12:23 PM

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View PostNSW Mntd Rifles, on 18 January 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

 

I'll conjecture that the ungrateful colonials were lured into Germany by propaganda advertising FREE BEER in Berlin and Munich. One battalion of beer crazy colonials with criminal ancestry were enough to destroy the Wehrmacht and their tanks.

 

I'm also suggesting that the occupation of Japan in 1945 led to an accelerated production of the "unbreakable" Toyota Hilux, which was capable of taking on any German super tank. Hilux squads mounting sophisticated anti-tank weapons captured Hitler and his staff then drove the Russians back to the Volga. https://www.youtube....?v=1Sn9L94YrNk 

Silly man, everyone knows that there aren't roads in Russia. You can't drive them anywhere. ;)


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


NSW Mntd Rifles #57 Posted 18 January 2016 - 09:07 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 18 January 2016 - 10:23 PM, said:

Silly man, everyone knows that there aren't roads in Russia. You can't drive them anywhere. ;)

Of course! Why did I overlook that vital fact? :ohmy: My bad. The Toyota Hilux attack groups only made it to the Dniester & Dnieper. :izmena:



Party Poison91 #58 Posted 19 January 2016 - 08:44 PM

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View PostNSW Mntd Rifles, on 18 January 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

 

I'll conjecture that the ungrateful colonials were lured into Germany by propaganda advertising FREE BEER in Berlin and Munich. One battalion of beer crazy colonials with criminal ancestry were enough to destroy the Wehrmacht and their tanks.

 

I'm also suggesting that the occupation of Japan in 1945 led to an accelerated production of the "unbreakable" Toyota Hilux, which was capable of taking on any German super tank. Hilux squads mounting sophisticated anti-tank weapons captured Hitler and his staff then drove the Russians back to the Volga. https://www.youtube....?v=1Sn9L94YrNk 

Now you're just being silly :trollface:


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