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The Full Math Behind Mentor And Crew Skills Worked Out (and part checked to be about right)


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JacKTh4RiPPa #1 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:13 PM

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So i have been back and forthing with Max Chaos for several days and with a lot of help he has allowed me to make a spreadsheet working out all the math behind crew skills XP and the mentor perk, prem tanks and accelerated training all taken into account and shown

 

Here is the some up that is taken from it

Spoiler

 

The breakdown of this is that mentor is a great perk, and a must if you plN to play this game long run, and due to the ever increasing XP cost per skill it is still useful further on. It also shows the most effective XP grinding is playing a tier 2 prem tank with mentor, but by number of games it is only the case if you can consistently get a high enough XP in that tank I.E. If you get 200 XP a game in a tier 2, and 1000 in your tier 6 and 1100 in your tier 8, your tier 6 will be a more efficient tank for gaining Crew XP. Tanks like the T-34-88 have a lower tier prem boost, which is how they gain you additional XP. Tier 8 gets a 10% boost with a linear decline by 10% through to tier 2 which gets a 70% boost by the way :).

 

Here is the link to the full spreadsheet should anyone want to see it in full, at the bottom is a little bit showing how many games can be saved by having mentor if you get X average XP.

 

Hope this helps people and can be used as a reference point in future should people need to discuss crew things :)

 

oh, ps. If any errors are spotted please do tell so i can correct them :) Max is too busy really to go through every darn cell but it does look right and a sample of numbers are so. But i could have made errors in other places


Edited by JacKTh4RiPPa, 13 January 2016 - 04:41 AM.


UR TANK SPLODED #2 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:30 PM

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What I would like to know is, here on console, when does mentor "break even"?  That is, when does the savings with mentor pay for the last skill learned entirely.  This will be interesting.  

Matthew J35U5 #3 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:30 PM

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I don't understand why you need an entire spreadsheet to determine that mentor saves ~10% of your xp. (I don't remember if it would be 10% saved, 9% saved or 11% saved). 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Paddy mcstats #4 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:33 PM

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Excellent post bud 10/10.

Gallant Prime #5 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:34 PM

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Good effort/work.  But I need more labels or better definitions of the labels--particularly the games played section.  How many perks are there for the games played?  You have Max listed twice under 750 exp games played part instead of minimum.
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Gallant Prime #6 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:35 PM

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View PostUR TANK SPLODED, on 12 January 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

What I would like to know is, here on console, when does mento "break even"?  That is, when does the savings with mentor pay for the last skill learned entirely.  This will be interesting.  

There were many a thread before that would discuss this.  I think most believe it is around perk 7-9.​


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Matthew J35U5 #7 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:41 PM

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View PostUR TANK SPLODED, on 12 January 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

What I would like to know is, here on console, when does mento "break even"?  That is, when does the savings with mentor pay for the last skill learned entirely.  This will be interesting.  

 

Let the cost of a skill be X. 

The cost of skills 1-4=X

The cost of skills 5-8=2X

(etc)

The cost of a skill with mentor = 0.9X (approximately, it might be 0.91X, I don't remember)

 

Assume mentor is taken first:

Your skills will cost X* + 2.7X + 7.2X, + 13.4X (etc)-->8 skills = 10.9X

Without mentor, 7 skills costs 10 X (7 skills because mentor occupies one of the skills above, so you have the same number of "real" skills). 

So, if you aren't switching skills out, a 7-skill crew is cheaper without mentor than a "7-skill crew" with mentor. 

12 skills with mentor= 24.3X

11 skills without mentor = 24 X

Hence, if you are not switching skills, an 11-skill crew is cheaper without mentor than an "11-skill crew" with mentor. 

 

The next 4 skills cost 28.8X for mentor, and 28 X without mentor. 

 

I was expecting to find the answer pretty quickly, but it looks like I need an actual algorithm instead of just manually calculating all the numbers. Suffice to say that without switching skills, mentor takes a really long time to pay off. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


JacKTh4RiPPa #8 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:42 PM

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View PostUR TANK SPLODED, on 12 January 2016 - 11:30 PM, said:

What I would like to know is, here on console, when does mento "break even"?  That is, when does the savings with mentor pay for the last skill learned entirely.  This will be interesting.  

 

Well that depends on when you train it. I can start on doing a section at the bottom for that tonight for you. May do it on another spreadsheet so i can work out the exact point that it becomes longer to train that gain anything from :)

 

View PostMatthew J35U5, on 12 January 2016 - 11:30 PM, said:

I don't understand why you need an entire spreadsheet to determine that mentor saves ~10% of your xp. (I don't remember if it would be 10% saved, 9% saved or 11% saved). 

 

Well one it shows you the numbers.. So not just that mentor is 10%, but how much 10% of is.. 10% as a number is useless... 10% of 10? 10% of 200? this puts pespective on it. But it also looks at the cobination of things. So mentor on its own, accelerated crew training on it's own, prem tanks (which also have accelerated auto on) and prem + mentor.. Then i've tried to show the differences. This would hopefully allow people to break things down for what they want to do. For example if someone wants a prem tank they can see if they want to spend it, as there isn't a huge difference over a short number of games between using an elite tank with mentor and a prem tank with mentor... It doesn't determine mentor saves 10%, it uses that as a figure to determine other things :)

 

View PostF1nny2, on 12 January 2016 - 11:33 PM, said:

Excellent post bud 10/10.

 

Thanks :)

 

View PostGallant Prime, on 12 January 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

Good effort/work.  But I need more labels or better definitions of the labels--particularly the games played section.  How many perks are there for the games played?  You have Max listed twice under 750 exp games played part instead of minimum.

 

Yeah sorry i missed that, i had only done 1000 at first then drag and dropped the words out and changed the max's to min and the 1000 to figments of 250 lol, missed that one so thanks for telling me :)  I can try do something to show how many games played with X average XP would give Y skills/perks if you would like?

UR TANK SPLODED #9 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:43 PM

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View PostGallant Prime, on 12 January 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

There were many a thread before that would discuss this.  I think most believe it is around perk 7-9.​

 

That is for PC.

Gallant Prime #10 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:46 PM

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View PostJacKTh4RiPPa, on 12 January 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

 

Yeah sorry i missed that, i had only done 1000 at first then drag and dropped the words out and changed the max's to min and the 1000 to figments of 250 lol, missed that one so thanks for telling me :)  I can try do something to show how many games played with X average XP would give Y skills/perks if you would like?

Part of my difficulty in understanding was I did not realize you had premium time in there as well.  Yes please on the additional analysis!


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YOU GOT DENI3D #11 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:46 PM

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Ya it's just common sense to me, the longer you play the more it pays off. Please no one use mentor though, more skills for me :P

JacKTh4RiPPa #12 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:46 PM

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View PostGallant Prime, on 12 January 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

There were many a thread before that would discuss this.  I think most believe it is around perk 7-9.​

 

It depends when you train it and what else you combine it with.

 

View PostMatthew J35U5, on 12 January 2016 - 11:41 PM, said:

 

Let the cost of a skill be X. 

The cost of skills 1-4=X

The cost of skills 5-8=2X

(etc)

The cost of a skill with mentor = 0.9X (approximately, it might be 0.91X, I don't remember)

 

Assume mentor is taken first:

Your skills will cost X* + 2.7X + 7.2X, + 13.4X (etc)-->8 skills = 10.9X

Without mentor, 7 skills costs 10 X (7 skills because mentor occupies one of the skills above, so you have the same number of "real" skills). 

So, if you aren't switching skills out, a 7-skill crew is cheaper without mentor than a "7-skill crew" with mentor. 

12 skills with mentor= 24.3X

11 skills without mentor = 24 X

Hence, if you are not switching skills, an 11-skill crew is cheaper without mentor than an "11-skill crew" with mentor. 

 

The next 4 skills cost 28.8X for mentor, and 28 X without mentor. 

 

I was expecting to find the answer pretty quickly, but it looks like I need an actual algorithm instead of just manually calculating all the numbers. Suffice to say that without switching skills, mentor takes a really long time to pay off. 

 

That's wrong. I made the same mistake at first (check with max lol) that assumes mentor as a discout when it's a boost.. If you look through my spreadsheet you'll see to work out the effect of mentor it's, and this is a quote from max

"X*1.1=100800 is the equation. To solve for X you must divide both sides by 1.1.

(X*1.1)/1.1=100800/1.1

X= 91636 Tank Xp "

 

I'm going to try do something to show the exact points you make the cost back and from dif start points later



UR TANK SPLODED #13 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:48 PM

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Ok this has the potential to be the definitive wotxb Mentor thread, but not in the way the OP wanted.  The spreadsheet proves that here on console, where skills are much easier, Mentor NEVER pays off.  You always possess one less skill than you would by normal training.  Remember, Mentor takes up a space that a useful skill could hold.  That is why you have to keep it until it "breaks even" and you have overall an extra skill, which never happens here on console.  

 

Yayyyy!  Mentor dead.  It. Is. A. Waste. Of. A. Skill.



JacKTh4RiPPa #14 Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:54 PM

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View PostUR TANK SPLODED, on 12 January 2016 - 11:48 PM, said:

Ok this has the potential to be the definitive wotxb Mentor thread, but not in the way the OP wanted.  The spreadsheet proves that here on console, where skills are much easier, Mentor NEVER pays off.  You always possess one less skill than you would by normal training.  Remember, Mentor takes up a space that a useful skill could hold.  That is why you have to keep it until it "breaks even" and you have overall an extra skill, which never happens here on console.  

 

Yayyyy!  Mentor dead.  It. Is. A. Waste. Of. A. Skill.

 

yeah but like... sorry... the cost of the skill 17 is 1,612,800.. with the mentor boost you save 146,618 from that 1 skill... Which is more than the cost of the first 4 skills on Xbox.. So by getting mentor, on 1 perk alone by that point you acutally save more than the cost of mentor.. So erm.. want to try think again? as the whole thing says, just mentor.. no other boosts to crew XP, you save 3,045,993 XP overall... Which is quite a lot.. So in no way is that a waste.. i made this thread because i've heard the arguement you are making over and over and it has no backing to it, so i made this spreadsheet to show that math backs that it is very useful.

YOU GOT DENI3D #15 Posted 13 January 2016 - 12:01 AM

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View PostJacKTh4RiPPa, on 12 January 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

 

yeah but like... sorry... the cost of the skill 17 is 1,612,800.. with the mentor boost you save 146,618 from that 1 skill... Which is more than the cost of the first 4 skills on Xbox.. So by getting mentor, on 1 perk alone by that point you acutally save more than the cost of mentor.. So erm.. want to try think again? as the whole thing says, just mentor.. no other boosts to crew XP, you save 3,045,993 XP overall... Which is quite a lot.. So in no way is that a waste.. i made this thread because i've heard the arguement you are making over and over and it has no backing to it, so i made this spreadsheet to show that math backs that it is very useful.

 

Shhhhh why you helping all the scrublords?:trollface: We have a good thing going here, go back into hiding :hiding:

UR TANK SPLODED #16 Posted 13 January 2016 - 12:02 AM

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View PostJacKTh4RiPPa, on 12 January 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

 

yeah but like... sorry... the cost of the skill 17 is 1,612,800.. with the mentor boost you save 146,618 from that 1 skill... Which is more than the cost of the first 4 skills on Xbox.. So by getting mentor, on 1 perk alone by that point you acutally save more than the cost of mentor.. So erm.. want to try think again? as the whole thing says, just mentor.. no other boosts to crew XP, you save 3,045,993 XP overall... Which is quite a lot.. So in no way is that a waste.. i made this thread because i've heard the arguement you are making over and over and it has no backing to it, so i made this spreadsheet to show that math backs that it is very useful.

 

This has been finalized.  Mentor has to pay for the LAST skill not the first.  Once again, thanks for killing off Mentor, I always disliked it.

JacKTh4RiPPa #17 Posted 13 January 2016 - 12:03 AM

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View PostYOU GOT DENI3D, on 13 January 2016 - 12:01 AM, said:

 

Shhhhh why you helping all the scrublords?:trollface: We have a good thing going here, go back into hiding :hiding:

 

As our lord and savior Maynard would say "Who are you to wave your finger? You must have been outta your head."   This now also makes me want to make an Xbl acc based around tool and go around the forums responding to people with lyrics from his songs lol



JacKTh4RiPPa #18 Posted 13 January 2016 - 12:05 AM

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View PostUR TANK SPLODED, on 13 January 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

 

This has been finalized.  Mentor has to pay for the LAST skill not the first.  Once again, thanks for killing off Mentor, I always disliked it.

 

the last perk? there are 8 perks/skills after the one i mentioned.. And i haven't done the math on the saving with each one. I'd guess it'd have paid for it self within 7 perks, maybe 6.

UR TANK SPLODED #19 Posted 13 January 2016 - 12:07 AM

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View PostJacKTh4RiPPa, on 12 January 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

 

the last perk? there are 8 perks/skills after the one i mentioned.. And i haven't done the math on the saving with each one. I'd guess it'd have paid for it self within 7 perks, maybe 6.

 

Do the math, I triple dog dare ya.

JacKTh4RiPPa #20 Posted 13 January 2016 - 12:08 AM

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View PostUR TANK SPLODED, on 13 January 2016 - 12:07 AM, said:

 

Do the math, I triple dog dare ya.

 

i was gonna do it from requests earlier anyhow lol.. i even said i was gonna do it.. not sure i need daring :D




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