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Should TDs get premium ammunition?


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ginger bair #41 Posted 09 May 2016 - 02:34 PM

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View PostNightOfDeaths, on 09 May 2016 - 03:08 AM, said:

Jagdpanzer gets an dank 420 penetration which is unbelievable. 

 

JagE-100 HEAT pen should stay as it is for reasons other than in-game use. 



emperordennis #42 Posted 09 May 2016 - 02:41 PM

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View Postkiller etzi0, on 09 May 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

 

Of course the reason I ask is the more accurate thing to look at (which I am sure there are many researched lists already) is kills per game, all this talk about DPM, alpha, damage... what really maters (imo) what top tier TD's have a noticeable higher average kills per game than other tanks.

All the evidence I have seen points to that yes. One could argue that this is "fair" since tank destroyers are meant to... Well destroy tanks. However they are a bit too effective in their current implementation. 

Average number of kills per game is influenced by the player though. The numbers I have were pulled from the Xbox encyclopedia and not influenced by anything. 

View PostMrWuvems, on 09 May 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

 

I think TTK and damage/shot together is probably why the people that don't play tier 10 don't. They combine to make it a camp fest where taking any risk is immediately punished by 750+ damage bombs while you will never have enough DPM to punish reloads by yourself, leading to a situation where no-one wants to be the first one out.

The very reason I refuse to play (and therefore buy) tier tens. Sure, I'll suck it up if the matchmaker puts me in a tier 10 match if I'm in a 8/9. But I just hate the way people are punished for being aggressive in this tier. In the lower tiers you'll get smacked sure, but not instantly deleted unless you are really unlucky/messed up. 


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LacqueredBacon #43 Posted 09 May 2016 - 02:43 PM

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View PostJoco3000, on 09 May 2016 - 02:52 AM, said:

A few days ago, I was trying to think up of potential solutions to the 183 problem. Replacements, nerfs, counter-buffs. That sort of thing.

 

​The simplest solution that I found was to simply remove the premium HESH round, which is the cause of most of the complaints regarding this vehicle.

 

This has got me thinking. Do any of the tier X TDs actually need premium rounds?

 

​As it stands, most tier X TDs have penetration just shy of 300mm. AP penetration, that is. For most purposes, that's generally overkill. On top of that, most of them get a premium round somewhere in the 400mm penetration range, with the Object 263, 183 and WT E-100 being the exceptions. And the latter two have their own problems.

 

​Do TDs actually need that much firepower? Do they deserve to just simply negate any and all armour a tank may have by simply tapping "A" and aiming for centre mass?

 

Perhaps instead of removing the premium rounds, revise them so that they suffer less from RNG.  For instance, the T110E3 has an average penetration of 295mm and damage of 750.  But with RNG at 25%, the actual penetration and damage ranges from 221mm-368mm and 562 points-937points.

 

Change the RNG to 15% but keep the maxes the same.  In this example, the average would increase to 320mm and the damage would increase to 814 points.  But in both cases, the max would still be capped at 368mm and 937 points.  The minimums in this case would be 272 mm and 692 damage.



 


LacqueredBacon #44 Posted 09 May 2016 - 03:09 PM

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View Postemperordennis, on 09 May 2016 - 04:43 AM, said:

I actually did some casual research a few days ago into td vs heavy. It turns out that across tiers tds tend to be able to pen pretty much any equal tiered heavy (based on raw frontal armor/frontal turret values not taking angling into account). Ofcourse there are exceptions like the t32 turrets and such. 

 

The real issue I found is the average heavy health divided by average td damage (how many shots it takes to kill on average) . This drops drastically as tiers goes up. I doubt this is a surprise but the degree at which it happened was quite shocking. You get a fairly steep line which means the td alpha increases too much when compared to the spunging ability of heavies.

 

Here is the data. I'll see if I can post the document later (all data based on highest package available):

Tier    shots to kill on average

5 4.054961832

6 3.813679245

7 4.545406267

8 3.610747051

9 3.392643285

10 2.805343511

 
Funny thing to note, you often hear tier 7 seems the tier people enjoy the most. Looking at this data the tds seem to be "underpowered" relative to the average trend. 

 

I've often wondered this.  Have you done a similar analysis of Mediums shooting Heavies or TD's shooting Mediums?


 


killer etzi0 #45 Posted 09 May 2016 - 03:12 PM

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And if we are on the topic of damage by premium rounds specific to high their TD, I think the KV-2 derp needs to be part of this discussion. That tank/gun reeks as much havoc in tier as the 183 or any of the other "op" tier X TD's...... just sayin  :)

"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat."

 

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MrWuvems #46 Posted 09 May 2016 - 03:16 PM

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View Postkiller etzi0, on 09 May 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

And if we are on the topic of damage by premium rounds specific to high their TD, I think the KV-2 derp needs to be part of this discussion. That tank/gun reeks as much havoc in tier as the 183 or any of the other "op" tier X TD's...... just sayin  :)

 

.6 accuracy

Premium round is AP (no HE damage bonus) with less pen than most tier 6 heavies have as AP. The irony is the only tank the KV-2 can reliably pen is the KV-2 due to whale mobility and giant no armor turret it can't hide.


 

If we're talking OP premium rounds with the 152 howitzer, we're talking the SU-152, because 250mm HEAT



killer etzi0 #47 Posted 09 May 2016 - 03:18 PM

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View PostMrWuvems, on 09 May 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

 

.6 accuracy

Premium round is AP (no HE damage bonus) with less pen than most tier 6 heavies have as AP. The irony is the only tank the KV-2 can reliably pen is the KV-2 due to whale mobility and giant no armor turret it can't hide.


 

If we're talking OP premium rounds with the 152 howitzer, we're talking the SU-152, because 250mm HEAT

 

I will go with ya on that. Though I ran across many a KV-2 this weekend while playing my VK 36.01 H (trying to get that third MOE :angry:)  and I either got one shot or reduced to less than 10 hp several times... lol.

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emperordennis #48 Posted 09 May 2016 - 03:20 PM

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View PostSlipperyBat3354, on 09 May 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

 

I've often wondered this.  Have you done a similar analysis of Mediums shooting Heavies or TD's shooting Mediums?

 

Sadly no. 

I was working on a (python) programm to extract all data from the encyclopedia. I got the code right to find the values but kept getting a Unicode error which meant I wasn't able to extract the actual value. I kinda gave up after that but I might pick it back up sometime. If I get it to work I'll be sure to share all the data. 


Very good guide: Beta582's Guide to Everything

 

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MrWuvems #49 Posted 09 May 2016 - 03:22 PM

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View Postkiller etzi0, on 09 May 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

 

I will go with ya on that. Though I ran across many a KV-2 this weekend while playing my VK 36.01 H (trying to get that third MOE :angry:)  and I either got one shot or reduced to less than 10 hp several times... lol.

 

That's an HE pen which should only really happen if you show them the escape hatches on the side at point-blank. The 36 doesn't get penned from the lower plate by HE like the 30 does

MisSiNg PaRtZ #50 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:12 PM

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I'd rather see APCR, HEAT , and all premium ammo get nerfed on all tanks. Maybe keep the pen the same , but lower the alpha by 20%-30% and make them cost 20% more silver or 1.5% more gold. 

 


emperordennis #51 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:15 PM

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As I promised, here is the Excel file in which I did all the calculations.

http://www.filedropper.com/tdvsheavy

 

For those of us who do not have time or are not interested in the details I'll give my conclusions here:

 

1) On average the shots to kill go from 4.05 at tier 5 to 2.81 at tier 10. This means that the average Heavies health pool grows slower than the average TD damage, thus reducing the spunging capabilities of Heavy tanks. A linear approximation yield 0,24 less shots to kill for each tier you go up

 

2) On average the time to kill (TTK) goes up from 20,96 seconds at tier 5 to 55,33 seconds at tier 10. A linear approximation yields an increase of 6,4 seconds in TTK for each tier you go up.

 

3) The use of angling the frontal armor at 30 degrees reduces drastically after tier 7. For tiers 5 through 7 it makes a lot of difference in how many Tank Destroyers are able to penetrate the armor. At tier 8 and 9 it does not matter for any tanks whether the frontal armor is angled, all TDs will punch through with regular AP. At tier 10 angling becomes a bit more important, however the accuracy at this tier negates the angling since weakspots are very easy to hit. NOTE: THIS IS BASED ON RAW ARMOR VALUES AND DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT PRE-SLOPED ARMOR, WEAKSPOTS ETC.

 

Ofcourse these are all averages and should be treated as such. There is much more detail in the file along with some more analysis regarding the highest damage values, highest health pool, highest armor and highest pen at each tier and such.

 

View PostJoco3000, on 09 May 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

 

This might be off topic a bit, but since you tend to have very good ideas regarding game changes I wanted you to see this


Very good guide: Beta582's Guide to Everything

 

All WoT Console tank characteristics (including hidden stats): WoT Console Encyclopedia

 


Metalrodent #52 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:17 PM

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No, probably not.

 

Not sure any tank needs 300+ pen, otherwise what's the point in even having weakspots to aim at or things like flanking.


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Im Mr G J Jones #53 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:29 PM

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Remove the whole point of the DEATH STAR? Haha. Great solution. Here's the best solution: stop crying and accept.
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LacqueredBacon #54 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:35 PM

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View Postemperordennis, on 09 May 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

As I promised, here is the Excel file in which I did all the calculations.

http://www.filedropper.com/tdvsheavy

 

For those of us who do not have time or are not interested in the details I'll give my conclusions here:

 

1) On average the shots to kill go from 4.05 at tier 5 to 2.81 at tier 10. This means that the average Heavies health pool grows slower than the average TD damage, thus reducing the spunging capabilities of Heavy tanks. A linear approximation yield 0,24 less shots to kill for each tier you go up

 

2) On average the time to kill (TTK) goes up from 20,96 seconds at tier 5 to 55,33 seconds at tier 10. A linear approximation yields an increase of 6,4 seconds in TTK for each tier you go up.

 

3) The use of angling the frontal armor at 30 degrees reduces drastically after tier 7. For tiers 5 through 7 it makes a lot of difference in how many Tank Destroyers are able to penetrate the armor. At tier 8 and 9 it does not matter for any tanks whether the frontal armor is angled, all TDs will punch through with regular AP. At tier 10 angling becomes a bit more important, however the accuracy at this tier negates the angling since weakspots are very easy to hit. NOTE: THIS IS BASED ON RAW ARMOR VALUES AND DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT PRE-SLOPED ARMOR, WEAKSPOTS ETC.

 

Ofcourse these are all averages and should be treated as such. There is much more detail in the file along with some more analysis regarding the highest damage values, highest health pool, highest armor and highest pen at each tier and such.

 

This might be off topic a bit, but since you tend to have very good ideas regarding game changes I wanted you to see this

 

Nice work!


 


Moisterrr #55 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:48 PM

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View PostIm Mr G J Jones, on 09 May 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Remove the whole point of the DEATH STAR? Haha. Great solution. Here's the best solution: stop crying and accept.

 

Were you satisfied with how balanced the Deathstar is when I put a 2k dmg shell into your Maus the other day? ...I pressed RB lol

Pit Friend #56 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:50 PM

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View PostMrTrollPacMan, on 09 May 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Instead of removing premium rounds, you could make them like they are on the SU-100Y.

Less pen than the normal AP, but more damage.

 

This is one of the better ideas, and even has precedent in the game. I like it! :great:


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Moisterrr #57 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:53 PM

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View PostPit Friend, on 09 May 2016 - 05:50 PM, said:

 

This is one of the better ideas, and even has precedent in the game. I like it! :great:

 

This idea has been around a while and I even did a poll on it because I am in favor. The results and comments were... disturbing.

Im Mr G J Jones #58 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:56 PM

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View PostGiddyy, on 09 May 2016 - 05:48 PM, said:

 

Were you satisfied with how balanced the Deathstar is when I put a 2k dmg shell into your Maus the other day? ...I pressed RB lol

 

I don't mind taking a major slap from the death star. I have the death star also, so i do a lot of heavy slapping my self. The maus can afford to take 2000 damage. It's meant for breaking through defenses and taking hits for team mates. :D


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Moisterrr #59 Posted 09 May 2016 - 05:58 PM

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View PostIm Mr G J Jones, on 09 May 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

 

I don't mind taking a major slap from the death star. I have the death star also, so i do a lot of heavy slapping my self. 

 

That's not how balance works...

Im Mr G J Jones #60 Posted 09 May 2016 - 06:00 PM

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View PostGiddyy, on 09 May 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

 

That's not how balance works...

 

Take a look at arties. [edited]happens my dear friend.


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