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Buffing Churchill one updated

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Poll: Buffing the Churchill one (47 members have cast votes)

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Should the Churchill 1 be buffed?

  1. yes (29 votes [61.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.70%

  2. no (18 votes [38.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.30%

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JOSEFF50 #1 Posted 20 February 2017 - 02:04 AM

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Please read through all of this post before making your decision, this post has been updated with new information with the new information being in bolded text

Hello again my fellow British heavy tank drivers, this topic is about Churchill one heavy tank and why I believe it needs to be buffed and how it can be buffed.

 

But first of all let's talk about what the Churchill 1 positive attributes, which are the fact that it has the highest health of all tier five heavy tanks which is 700 hit points and only two other tanks have the same amount and these are the Churchill 3 and the O-I experimental.

In addition this tank, base turret traverse is at 34° which is the best second of the tier 5 heavies only beaten by the Excelsior turret traverse which is 36°. Whilst its ammo capacity is 84 which is the fifth best of the tier as the T 14 has 90 rounds, the O-I experimental has 100 rounds, whilst the KV-220-2 has 120 rounds and the Churchill 3 has 140 which is the best in tier 5.

Also its view range is 350 which is the second best of the tier with only O-I experimental and the VK 30.01 (H) surpassing it as they have 360 view range.

 

Its camouflage rating is the second best of the tier 5 heavies as when it is moving is 0.07 and when stationary is 0.14 which is only beaten by the Excelsior which has when it is moving is 0.08 and when stationary is 0.15.

 

Now onto the positive attributes of its top gun: the 75 mm high velocity gun which has the second-highest penetration of all tier 5 heavies at 145 penetration with only being VK 30.01 (H) 7, 5/5,5cm Waffe 0725 gun being higher as it has 157 penetration. Other useful attributes is that the gun accuracy is 0.36 which again is the second highest in its tier only the VK 30.01 (H) 7, 5/5,5cm Waffe 0725 gun surpassing it as it has an accuracy of 0.34. In addition its aim time is 2.30 which is the third best in tier which is only surpassed by the Churchill 3 and KV 220-2 that have aim time of 2.29 and T 14 which has the best in tier at 2.06 for its aim time.

 

Next positive attribute is its reverse speed which 14 km is the highest of all the tier 5 heavies which is only matched by the Churchill 3.

Last 2 positive attributes is its hull armour which 177 mm which is the highest of the tier and Terrain resistance is the third best in tier at 1 for hard terrain, 1.20 for medium terrain and for soft terrain is 2.10. This is only beaten by the T 14 which has 1.03 for hard terrain, 1.14 for medium terrain and for soft terrain is 1.71 therefore the second best in tier whilst the best in tier is the  O-I experimental which has 1 for hard terrain, 1.10 for medium terrain and for soft terrain is 1.80.

 

Another positive attribute is its six pounder gun which is the second best of three 57 calibre guns that can be mounted on the heavy tanks of tier 5 which are shown here: http://tanks.gg/v0917/compare/churchill-i?l=51112d&t=kv-1_41211b~churchill-iii

 

Now with all the good points out of the way, I can get on to the negative attributes of this tank.

 

The first negative point of this tank is that behind the tracks in the front and the back there is hull which means that if the tracks get shot from the front or the back and the enemy has enough penetration to go through the tracks and the hull armor it will damage the tank and take off the tracks which stop the tank from moving. This is because three parts of hull armor at the front which are 38 mm to the top bottom sloped part and 63mm for the middle sloped part with the tank being on level ground even with the sloping and the tracks which are 20 mm of armour the bottom part is only 80 mm and the middle part is 93 mm whilst top sloped part is at 70° angle therefore causing a shot when on level ground to ricochet off the tank however if the enemy tank has a calibre gun that is 114 or more will automatically penetrates the tank in this part or if the enemy is attacking from a higher location or as a tall vehicle which decreases the angle to below 70° the armour becomes around 50 mm to 55 mm which is easily penetrate by many guns of the same tier.

 

Whilst sloping hull armour behind the tracks at the back is only 25 mm with 20 mm of track and the sloping does not increase the armour value therefore the armour is only 45 mm. This mean that an enemy who gets around the back of this tank can detrack the tank and damage it whilst stopping the tank from turning its Hull which is a disadvantage that this tank and the Churchill seven and the Black Prince only have as all other heavies do not have their tracks going around their hulls. Another negative part of this first point of this tank is its Hull armour at the back just under the part which is 50 mm there is 25 mm of armour that slopes downwards therefore this means that that any gun  of a calibre that is 75 or more will over match the armour and damage the tank.

This therefore negates the good Hull armour this tank has.

 

The second negative point of this tank again relates to the armor this time on the turret as there is a sloped roof that can be hit from the front of the tank which is only 19 mm and although it will ricochet any gun that is not a 57 caliber gun and the fact some tier four tanks and all five tanks have guns that have a caliber of 57 or more means that they will automatically penetrates this sloped part as it over matches the armour therefore negating the turret armor. In addition the turret armour is only 88 mm thick with only the internal gun mantle which is 101 mm is completely flat and as all of tier 5 heavies have either have thicker turret armour or the turret is shaped so that the armour value is much higher than the raw thickness as well the fact that a lot of the tier 5 heavies have gun mantles that overlap with their armour turret makes Churchill one turret the weakest in the front part of all tier 5 heavies. Also side armour on the side of the turret on the right which should be 88 mm is instead 76 mm.

 

The third Negative point of this tank is again on the hull armour but this time on the side of the tank as there is a part that is only 25 mm on back of the side armour that is located close to where the engine is and the back track wheel mean that that any gun of a calibre that is 75 or more will over match the armour and damage the tank therefore making side scraping pointless to do if the enemies know where to shoot vulnerable part.

 

The fourth negative point of this tank is that its Hull armour for the front of the tank that is not behind the tracks is completely flat and has different armour values which is split into three sections with the top section which has the different armour values with being the part with 177 mm on the right of the tank whilst on the left of the tank it is 88 mm and the driver hatch also on the left is 76 mm, the middle part of the Hull armour is 38 mm and is sloped at 70° angle therefore causing a shot when on level ground to ricochet off the tank however if the enemy tank has a calibre gun that is 114 or more will automatically penetrates the tank in this part or if the enemy is attacking from a higher location or as a tall vehicle which decreases the angle to below 70° the armour becomes around 50 mm to 55 mm which is easily penetrate by many guns of the same tier and below whilst the lower part of the Hull armour is 76mm and is sloped so little that it only increases the armour to 79 mm.

 

The fifth negative point of this tank is again its Hull armour but on the side as it has different values with the largest part being 63 mm whilst the hatch near the front wheel is only 50 mm and visually on the side of the tank were the exhaust fumes come out there is 50 mm spaced armour that overlaps the most part with the 63 mm of the side armour however hole where there is just the spaced armour. Therefore Hull armour besides the strong part of 177 mm of this tank is second worst of all tier 5 heavies with only the VK 30.01(H) which has 50 mm all-round for its Hull and is completely flat. This is because all of the tier 5 heavies besides these two have sloping or thickness or both that increases the hull armour to be higher than for the 88 mm and the 76 mm on the front of the Churchill one whilst having thicker side armour that is not riddled with weak points like the Churchill one.

 

The sixth negative point of this tank is the fact this tank howitzers which is the 3 inch howitzer and the 75 mm Mark five which should be used as derp gun are the worst howitzers of all tier 5 heavies besides the premiums as the penetration is the lowest at 38 mm and as well the damage which is 175 and the shell velocity of both guns is quite low therefore makes it useless against mediums and heavies with only been useful against light tanks as in comparison to other tier 5 heavies howitzers or large calibre guns that can be used like howitzers when using explode rounds as shown here in tank gg: http://tanks.gg/wot/compare#t:churchill-i;3p00000.c:churchill-i;Fp00000.c:bdr-g1-b;Bp00000.c:kv-1;5m00000.c:kv-1s;5p00000.c:o-i-exp;wp00000.c:t1-heavy;zm00000.c:vk-3001-h;Jq00000

Also 3 inch howitzer for some odd reason only does 175 damage which is the same as many 75 mm guns that are one millimetre smaller than this gun whilst the 76 mm T1 heavy tank does 10 more damage even though it is not an howitzer. The 3 inch howitzer only has a shelf velocity of 182 which is the lower shelf velocity for the all guns in game and is not the correct velocity for this gun which should be 220. Also its penetration is only 38 mm again the same as many 75 mm guns which is another odd thing as all other howitzers in the game even when the same calibre as normal guns penetrate more with their high explosive and do more damage than non- howitzers guns when using high explosive shells.

The seventh and in my opinion worst, negative attribute of this tank is that it’s top gun elevation and depression which at 12 degrees elevation and 4 degrees depression is the worst in the tier 5 heavies as none of the other heavy tanks have low values in both their elevation and depression as they normally either bad elevation or bad depression for the guns, this with the final negative attribute of this tank makes this the worst tier 5 heavy.

 

The eighth negative attribute of this tank is once again its gun in particular its calibre which is 75 mm which is the second smallest calibre of gun of all tier 5 heavies with the Churchill three six pounder having a calibre of 57 mm which is the smallest calibre. This means that the Churchill one gun can only over match 25 mm of armour, while O-I experimental 105 millimetre gun which is the biggest of all the tier 5 heavy tanks can over match 35 mm of armour.

 

The ninth negative attribute of this tank is its weight at 40,015 tonnes makes it the fourth lightest heavy tank of the tier 5 heavies with three other tanks being the Churchill three which is third lightest heavy tank at 39,710 tonnes, the second lightest heavy tank is the BDR G1 B at 37,700 tonnes and the lightest heavy tank of the tier 5 heavy tanks is the VK 30.01 H at 36,820 tonnes. This means that the Churchill one anti-RAM capability besides the three mentioned mean that rammed by any of the other tier 5 heavies and even the three tanks that are lighter than it if they got to top speed which is higher than the Churchill’s one top speed, the Churchill one will take more damage than the other tank. Whilst its ramming capability because of its low weight and the fact is the slowest tier 5 heavy tank is the worst in tier means that you should not try to ram any of the other tier 5 heavies except the three that are lighter than this tank as you will take more damage than the other tank.

 

The tenth negative attribute of this tank is the Hull roof armour which is 15.9 mm is the third worst of all tier 5 heavy tanks with the second worst being the Churchill three which has 15.87 mm of hull roof armour and worst of all tier 5 heavy tanks when comes to hull roof armour is the BDR G1 B which has 15 mm of Hull roof armour. This means that the Churchill one with the fact that it is the slowest of the tier 5 heavy tanks if targeted by enemy artillery will struggle to dodge their shots and if they are able to hit the Hull roof armour they will do full damage to this tank.

 

The eleventh negative attribute of this tank is turret roof armour which is 19 mm which is the worst of all tier 5 heavies therefore meaning that the Churchill one with the fact that it is the slowest of the tier 5 heavy tanks if targeted by enemy artillery will struggle to dodge their shots and if they are able to hit the turret roof armour they will do full damage to this tank.

The Twelfth negative attribute of this tank is its damage per minute by using the top 75 mm is 1687.50 at base value is the fourth worst of all tier 5 heavies with the third worst being VK 30.01 H using its top 75 gun its damage per minute is 1620 at base value and in the second worst place is KV- 220- 2 that is 76 mm gun that has a damage per minute of 1540 at base value whilst the worst of all the tier 5 heavies in damage per minute is the BDR G1 B which has 1515.79 at Base value.

 

The thirteen negative attribute of this tank is the penetration of its six pounder gun which is 110 mm which is the fourth worst penetration of all tier 5 heavies as it shares this position with the Churchill three that has the same penetration, tank with the third worst penetration KV- 220- 2 which has 99 penetration whilst the tank second worst penetration is the T 14 which has 92 penetration and the tank of the worst penetration all the tier 5 heavies is the Excelsior which is 91 penetration. However besides Churchill one which sees tier 7 tanks as all the other tanks are premiums and have preferential matchmaking so they only see tier 6. Also the fact that the six pounder only does 75 damage per shot means against targets with high health or thick armour or both, is that the Churchill one when using the six pounder will be ineffective against enemies of those types unlike when it uses the top 75 mm which has 35 mm more penetration and 60 more damage per shot.

 

The fourteen negative attribute of this tank is that when using its six pounder gun is its accuracy which is 0.41 at base value unlike the top 75 which has an accuracy of 0.36 at base value therefore the six pounder much less useful at longer ranges as it’s more likely to miss because of the worst accuracy and therefore will have to fire more shots in order to do the same amount of damage you could do with the top 75 mm or get in closer in order to make sure that your shots hit however this means that you become more likely to get hit return with all the auto penetration areas and the areas where there are thin parts of armour that you will take damage.

 

The final negative of this tank is its forward speed which is 25 km which is the slowest of all tier 5 heavies and its power to weight ratio is also the lowest at 8.80 which negates its good ground resistances and means that the tank on large maps is left behind by the team and cannot keep up with the battle. In addition lot of the maps being quite hilly this means that the tank cannot manoeuvre itself into positions where can use its limited elevation and depression to aim at targets. Another negative point that relates to the mobility of this tank is its hull traverse which is only 22 which is the second worst of all tier 5 heavies.

 

Now that all the negative points are out of the way, I can finally talk about how I believe this tank should be buffed in order to be relevant in its tier. 

 

The first buff that this tank should get is that is the Churchill’s 1 top turret which is the Churchill 3 turret should be replaced with the Churchill five turret as the turret armour on the roof including the sloped part is 35 mm would stop the automatic penetration of this area by guns of a calibre 57 and higher therefore limiting the number of tanks they can exploit this low armour area to a few that have guns caliber that is 105 or more. Here’s the information on the Churchill five turret http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/3-UK/04-InfantryTanks/Mk4-Churchill/Data/Churchill-Mk5.htm which at the same armour values except for roof armour and the side of the turret on the right side should be 88 mm instead of 76 mm which the current turret has.

 

The second buff should be that the 3 inch howitzer that should get a damage increase to its high explosive shells which at the moment are 175 to 220 because it makes no sense that it should have the same damage as 75 mm cannon when using high explosives and the fact 3 inch howitzer is 1 mm bigger and should do more damage than 76 mm gun that the T1 heavy tank when it uses high explosive shells whilst its heat shells should do damage of 160 to make up for the fact that this howitzer has such extremely slow shell velocity. Also shell velocity of 182 should be brought up to 220 this will allow it to hit targets easier. Also its penetration of 38 should be changed to 40 which is the penetration of its standard high explosive shells as is the same as many 75 mm guns that are not howitzers. These are all these buffs should make this gun more usable the Churchill one and if possible on the lower tier tanks that also use this gun as well as I never see it being used in game as it’s just not viable as it is right now to use.

 

The second buff that can be used alternatively than one above, should be the tank should be to use the 3-7 inch howitzer which is a much better derp gun than the previous options this tank had. And here is a post on why: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/497055-give-valentine-and-churchill-their-proper-howitzers/

 

The third buff should be that the tank the frontal armour on the Hull which is 76 mm around the drivers hatch should be buffed to 88 mm whilst the middle section of the Hull armour which is 38 mm should be buffed to 58 mm which can be visually done by putting tracks on that section that counts as armour as this would increase the tank durability as a heavy. In addition the hatch on the side armour of the hull which is 50 mm should be buffed to be the same as the rest of the armour which is 63 mm whilst the armour hole with spaced armour does not overlap with the side armour should be gone rid of in order to increase the tank durability as a heavy.

 

The fourth buff that this tank should get as I believe that the sloped parts of armour behind the tracks should be buffed from 38 mm  in the top part and bottom part to 63 mm  and 63 mm in the middle part to 88 mm for the front whilst for the back of the tank it should be buffed from 25 mm for both sloped parts to 50 mm as this would increase the tanks value as a heavy tank as even if it's tracks got blown off it would not damage the tank unless they were firing  high penetration shells  they would not be able to penetrate as easy the front and damage the tank  on back they would aim at part of the armour that is 50mm and not the back track wheels that it would be  harder to penetrate and  damage. whilst 25 mm of downward sloping armour underneath the 50 mm of the tank back Hull armour should be 50 mm as this would increase the durability of this tank as well as decrease the amount of tanks they can over match this part of the tank, to tanks they have 150 mm or more calibre guns. Also part of the armour on the hull side that is 25 mm should be buffed to 63 mm so that people who play this tank do not have to worry about getting automatically penetrated when they tried to side scrape, again would increase the value of this tank use as a heavy as it would be more durable.

 

The fifth buff for this tank should be the maximum top speed should be 26 km instead of 25km as this is the historical speed of this tank.

 

The sixth buff for this tank should be that its ground resistances should be buffed from which are 1.0 on hard terrain to 0.85, 1.20 on medium terrain to 1.05 and 2.10 on soft terrain to 1.60 as this would represent the tank excellent ability to cross difficult ground and its excellent mountain climbing ability it had in real life as well as the fact that once it got to speed it would keep its speed no matter what the terrain differences were. This again would help the mobility of the tank and allow it to get around the battlefield much quicker.

 

The final buff for this tank that I believe no one will disagree with me on is that the elevation should be 20 degrees instead of 12 degrees and the depression should be 8 degrees instead of 4 degrees for top gun on this tank as it will allow this tank to much more useful in maps that don't have a lot of flat ground and that are very hilly whilst allowing it to Hull down.

 

I believe this limitation is the most frustrating thing about the Churchill one.

 

Anyone who wants to look at the values of the Churchill one here is the link: http://tanks.gg/wot/tank/churchill-i

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/221125-its-the-wrong-37-howitzer-gromit/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_95_mm_howitzer

 


Edited by JOSEFF50, 04 August 2017 - 11:59 PM.


ApicalBag43892 #2 Posted 20 February 2017 - 06:52 AM

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The Churchill I is the first tank I ever got a Kolobanov's Medal in, against a T1 Heavy, a KV-1, and two arty, and a tier 4 med. Besides that, I'm quite happy it's inferior to it's equal tier counter-parts, it discourages awful players from getting to the higher tiers to the point you see an FV215b camping at the base every game or yoloing into oblivion... like German and Russian Heavy tank drivers, The lower tiers are bad so that you get rewarded with the best Heavy tank guns of Tier IX-X, with some other advantages as well. I say leave them alone, it presents a challenge for people to get past, a tribulation, and I like my fellow Brit heavy drivers to be seasoned, which makes the difference between an average Churchill driver and an average KV-1 driver. They're also not that bad in practice, I don't think I've ever had someone pen my sides while angled in the Churchill, the turret should be better than the Russian premium version though...which I own, shamefully:mellow:                                       My profile is S1r1us159 for reference

Edited by ApicalBag43892, 20 February 2017 - 06:53 AM.


Steadfast Ward #3 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:15 PM

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i do think it needs armour to be same as the churchill 3 because the end package is meant to be a churchill 3 body

Knot3D #4 Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:11 PM

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I'm not necessarily against your proposed buffs but I think the whole Churchill tech tree is kind of messed up. 

 

I do have to say though, the British Bulldog is WG's best Churchill implementation ; for it being as historically accurate as WOT gets and its PMM tier placement is spot on perfect. 

With that said, I would suggest to restructure the techtree Churchills :

 

- Churchill 1 & 2 with the 2Pdr & 6Pdr package at Tier 4

- Churchill 3 & 4 with 6Pdr & 75mm & 3.7in howitzer at Tier 5

- Churchill 7  with 75mm Vickers HV & QF 77mm at tier 6



Steadfast Ward #5 Posted 08 May 2017 - 04:55 PM

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i got 3 marks on mine using the 6pdr; i just wish that gun had better damage compensated with slower reload, after all the 6pdr was an anti-tank gun

PLK180W #6 Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:20 PM

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Not going to argue,  Churchill definitely needs looking at.

 

The Churchill should have two major attributes especially due to its speed - armour and firepower.

 

Well its got the firepower,  but the armour is too full of holes to rely on at close ranges.

 

I've always wondered about the 3.7 AT Mortar.  You unlock it at tier III on the Cruiser II, then you never see it again until the Cromwell and Churchill VII, (by which point is of very limited use).

 

 

 

 


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Steadfast Ward #7 Posted 08 May 2017 - 10:19 PM

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The armour issue could be semi fixed by appling the turret front applique armour that is 31.75mm, it would bring the turret armour to 120mm (ish) in places. also the fact the frontal turret roof skin on the soviet mk3 is false, the mk3 turret roof skin is the same thickness all over like the UK one. The rest of the tank is ok / good.

Chimonakimi #8 Posted 08 May 2017 - 10:25 PM

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Let me just step right in here, use the QF 6-pdr, carry a healthy amount of APCR, carry games, ez.

Steadfast Ward #9 Posted 08 May 2017 - 11:15 PM

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yes its a good gun and if the situation is right you can rack up alot of damage, but with medium armour and slower than jap heavy speed; you wouldnt want to trade shots with the soviets



PLK180W #10 Posted 13 May 2017 - 07:22 PM

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View PostChimonakimi, on 08 May 2017 - 10:25 PM, said:

Let me just step right in here, use the QF 6-pdr, carry a healthy amount of APCR, carry games, ez.

 

View PostSteadfast Ward, on 08 May 2017 - 11:15 PM, said:

yes its a good gun and if the situation is right you can rack up alot of damage, but with medium armour and slower than jap heavy speed; you wouldnt want to trade shots with the soviets

 

...especially an IS-2.

 

As for facing a Tiger with the 6-pdr...


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Steadfast Ward #11 Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:56 PM

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easiest armour fix - churchill 3 armour; or is it too much to let the brits have the best british tanks

PLK180W #12 Posted 26 May 2017 - 03:04 AM

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View PostSteadfast Ward, on 25 May 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

easiest armour fix - churchill 3 armour; or is it too much to let the brits have the best british tanks

 

(actually, the armour on the Brit Churchill is very slightly better then the Russian one)
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Steadfast Ward #13 Posted 27 May 2017 - 01:00 AM

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View PostPLK180W, on 26 May 2017 - 03:04 AM, said:

 

(actually, the armour on the Brit Churchill is very slightly better then the Russian one)

no its not, look at the ingame armour viewer and possibly play atleast one match in a churchill



PLK180W #14 Posted 27 May 2017 - 03:27 AM

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View PostSteadfast Ward, on 27 May 2017 - 01:00 AM, said:

no its not, look at the ingame armour viewer and possibly play atleast one match in a churchill

 

(alt account).

 

You have slightly thicker panels set into the front drivers plate.

Rest of the armour profile is the same as the CIII.

 

So far my Churchill in my game account is on about 750K XP.

 

I have played just a few games in it over the years.


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Steadfast Ward #15 Posted 28 May 2017 - 09:46 PM

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View PostPLK180W, on 27 May 2017 - 03:27 AM, said:

 

(alt account).

 

You have slightly thicker panels set into the front drivers plate.

Rest of the armour profile is the same as the CIII.

 

So far my Churchill in my game account is on about 750K XP.

 

I have played just a few games in it over the years.

 

The ch3 lower plate is much stronger and the side and the sloped area of the turret roof, its almost designed to wreck the ch1.

 

 

So far my Churchill in my game account is on about 1.7 million XP :P

On my alt account i have 3 mark on every tier 10 :trollface:



Chimonakimi #16 Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:28 PM

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View PostSteadfast Ward, on 28 May 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

 

The ch3 lower plate is much stronger and the side and the sloped area of the turret roof, its almost designed to wreck the ch1.

 

 

So far my Churchill in my game account is on about 1.7 million XP :P

On my alt account i have 3 mark on every tier 10 :trollface:

 

Uh, same, I just pretend that I'm a potato



Steadfast Ward #17 Posted 30 May 2017 - 01:52 PM

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Lately its getting harder to have legendary matches in it; especially playing solo.



JOSEFF50 #18 Posted 05 August 2017 - 12:00 AM

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this post has been updated with new information and please tell me what you think of it.

f1mitku #19 Posted 05 August 2017 - 05:53 AM

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So it's not too OP. And in short you want it to be better than IS-2 and Tiger I and pen them even without top upgrade package. What about - No.


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Brisbaneroad #20 Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:27 PM

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Is this a willy waving contest?




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