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Spall Liner is mostly useless


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TocFanKe4 #1 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:01 PM

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I wanted to get in on the fun.  I don't think I run a spall liner on any tank.  They only reason I can see for running a spall liner is the 50% crew protection boost, and then only in tanks like the Tortoise that have a weak spot that always kills a crew member.  Spall liner against HE isn't that effective.  It doesn't reduce damage by 50% or 25% or whatever is the listed amount.  It boosts the amount of damage your armor absorbs from the splash by the stated amount.  A tank with 200 mm of armor would get boosted by 50% in the calculation so it would get 300 mm of armor to absorb the splash.  A tank with 20 mm of armor would get boosted to 30 mm of armor.  It's just not worth it to run a spall liner on tanks that have no armor, and it's questionable to run it on tanks that do have it. 

 

I've gone back and found a nice post from way back when about this topic from Matthew J35U5.  The thread is here : http://forum-console.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/16681-the-spall-liner%E2%80%94a-questionable-choice/

 

Here is Matthew's post from Jan. 11th 2014:

 

The Spall liner item description reads: +x% (20, 25, 30, or 50%) to armour protection from ramming and explosions. The most common usage of this equipment is (the fun of ramming not-withstanding) to protect yourself against HE shells, most commonly the large HE shells fired by artillery. However, there are arguments against this choice. First of all, the spall liners do not protect you against penetrating hits by HE shells. This means that the "one-hit kills" that artillery get by landing penetrating hits will still happen just as often. One-hit kills by artillery aren't all that common though, so lets examine the effect that spall liners have in protecting you from splash damage. The formula for calculating the damage caused by non-penetrating HE shells is this:

actual damage=0.5*nominal damage*(1-impact distance/splash radius)-1.1*nominal armour thickness*spall coefficient

Let us then imagine one of the large artillery, a GW Tiger with its 21 cm gun. The nominal average damage by the GW Tiger's gun is 2000, but the penetration of the HE rounds are only 105 mm. If the GW Tiger is shooting at a comparable tier heavy tank such as the E-75, you will see that there are no locations on the E-75 where the GW Tiger is likely to penetrate with its HE rounds. So, taking the E-75 as an example, let us see how much damage the GW Tiger will do with a non-penetrating direct hit.

 

To avoid the messiness of tracks absorbing HE damage, let us assume that the GW Tiger lands a hit on the side of the E-75's turret. The side of the upgraded turret has 160 mm of armour, making the nominal armour thickness 160. Plugging into our formula, we get:

actual damage= 0.5*(2000)*(1-0/x*)-1.1*160*1**

*I didn't bother to find out what the splash radius on the GW Tiger was, and it doesn't matter for this example. 0/x=0

**Without a spall liner equipped, the spall coefficient is 1.

actual damage=1000-1.1*160

actual damage=824

That's a lot of damage to take in an E-75, how much can you reduce it with a spall liner equipped?

actual damage=1000-1.1*160*1.5

actual damage=736

Wow. That's really exciting. Now instead of losing 43% of your health from an artillery shell you only lose 38% of your health. Maybe this isn't the best example though, the tier 8 artillery all have extremely high damage and your saving grace is more avoiding getting hit than hoping you can tank the damage. 

 

Instead, lets look at a lower tier tank like the T14. I actually use a spall liner on my T14, because I find that a lot of lower tier tanks switch to HE when they find they can't penetrate my armour, and I thought that it would help to mount a spall liner. What does it do against artillery? The tier 5 german artillery, the Grille has an alpha damage of 680 with its top gun, and 75 mm of penetration with its HE shells. The hull armour on the T14 is better than the 50 mm of thickness would suggest because of the way that it is sloped. So while the T14 only has 50 mm of nominal armour thickness, I wouldn't expect a Grille to penetrate my armour with its HE shells all that often. But, because of how thin my armour actually is, I wouldn't be surprised if splash damage still was very dangerous to me. So:

actual damage=0.5*680-1.1*50*1***

actual damage= 285

***I am not positive that the nominal armour thickness does use the raw thickness of your armour, but the result I got isn't all that surprising to me. 

285 is pretty bad, its about 41% of your starting health. What will mounting a spall liner do? (+30% spall liner is available on the T14)

actual damage=0.5*680-1.1*50*1.3

actual damage= 269

With the spall liner equipped, you'll only lose 39% of your health, what an improvement!

 

From these 2 calculations, you can see that the spall liners really don't do a lot against artillery. In general, if you find yourself to be an artillery magnet and you're thinking a spall liner will help you out, look at how much damage artillery is usually hitting you for. If you're in an E-75 and you keep getting hit for 700-800 damage, consider that a spall liner isn't likely to help you mitigate more than 100 damage from that hit. And think, do you really want to spend up to 750,000 credits on an item that will make it so that artillery "only" hits you for 700 damage instead of 800? To me, that's not worth the money.

 

Conclusion: If you're looking at a spall liner as a way to increase your survivability against artillery, don't bother. As you can see from the formula, increasing the distance between you and where the artillery shell hits will reduce the damage you take by far more than mounting a spall liner. (For example, if you are half the splash radius away from the artillery shell, the nominal damage will be halved twice so that your armour is mitigating 1/4 of the nominal damage rather than 1/2 of it. So if you don't want to get killed by artillery, keep moving and hope that the RNG is on your side. :honoring:

 


Edited by TocFanKe4, 20 March 2017 - 08:01 PM.

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TocFanKe4 #2 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:03 PM

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Using a spall liner on a armored tank to reduce arty damage is only saving yourself like 90 damage.  Or you could take vents and make your tank more effective in not getting shot. 

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KillerDNA #3 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:04 PM

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Spall liner has saved my fatherland a few times. Spal liner has saved my awful panther a few times. spall liner is great for lower tiers as it's saved my Pz2j and T14 a few times. 

so no, it isn't mostly useless.


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Rarefication #4 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:05 PM

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I am not big on small liner either.

Gigantic Owl #5 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:07 PM

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View PostKillerDNA, on 20 March 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

Spall liner has saved my fatherland a few times. Spal liner has saved my awful panther a few times. spall liner is great for lower tiers as it's saved my Pz2j and T14 a few times. 

so no, it isn't mostly useless.

 

Spall liner on fatherland. Such cringe. Pure tomato baddy move


 

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Knot3D #6 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:07 PM

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I think, in the internal game mechanics... spall liner adds substantial weight to your tank, like improved suspension bars add weight too. Something to keep in mind.

WEREWOLF 762x39 #7 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:08 PM

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I use it on some tanks for the crew protection bonus as you said above. With the Spall Liner, Pain Tolerance and a LFAK my T110E3 crew is pretty safe. I've only had the tank for almost a week but I don't recall losing any crew members. That's what makes it worth it to me. Good posting nonetheless, thanks.
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RadiantPup27709 #8 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:10 PM

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Not on the waffle it isn't.  Shsl helped keep my gunner and loader alive when they would get knocked out on almost any shot to the turret without it. 


MrWuvems #9 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:10 PM

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View PostKnot3D, on 20 March 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

I think, in the internal game mechanics... spall liner adds substantial weight to your tank, like improved suspension bars add weight too. Something to keep in mind.

 

​Ancient question, don't feel like digging it up, but equipment doesn't add to vehicle weight in console.

 

OT - Have 2 tanks in my garage of (holy **** that's a lot of tanks), the KV-220 and the Bravo. Both of those are direct-fire HE magnets and combined crew survival bonuses make the turret crew not die so much



Beta582 #10 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:11 PM

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If you are looking to protect your vehicle health from arty, spall liner is useless.

 

If you are looking to protect your crew from arty, spall liner is very useful.

 

It all depends on the individuals priorities. Personally, I dont run a spall liner on anything because I use med kits.


 

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Beta582 #11 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:12 PM

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View PostRadiantPup27709, on 20 March 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

Not on the waffle it isn't.  Shsl helped keep my gunner and loader alive when they would get knocked out on almost any shot to the turret without it. 

 

Spall liner has no affect on penetrating HE hits. Only non-penetrating HE hits and ramming.

 

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Ned Noodles #12 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:12 PM

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I use it on 220



KillerDNA #13 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:12 PM

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View PostBeta582, on 20 March 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

If you are looking to protect your vehicle health from arty, spall liner is useless.

 

wrong here. there has been quite a few times where arty will splash beside my tank and do very little damage if any at all thanks to a spall liner. 

there has been times where I get pounded 3 or 4 times by arty by splash and direct hits and be left with like 50 hp. meaning the spall liner saved my life.


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Knot3D #14 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:14 PM

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View PostMrWuvems, on 20 March 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

 

​Ancient question, don't feel like digging it up, but equipment doesn't add to vehicle weight in console.

 

OT - Have 2 tanks in my garage of (holy **** that's a lot of tanks), the KV-220 and the Bravo. Both of those are direct-fire HE magnets and combined crew survival bonuses make the turret crew not die so much

 

Are you 100% sure, because.... I recall that it does on PC.   Especially upgraded suspension bars ; giving better terrain resistance, but offset a little by slower hillclimb due to added weight. 

Anyone at WG can confirm or debunk ? 



Major Englush #15 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:15 PM

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I might or might not run one on my V/IV because of reasons ...

 

:hiding:


Edited by Major Englush, 20 March 2017 - 08:15 PM.


TocFanKe4 #16 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:15 PM

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View PostKillerDNA, on 20 March 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

Spall liner has saved my fatherland a few times. Spal liner has saved my awful panther a few times. spall liner is great for lower tiers as it's saved my Pz2j and T14 a few times. 

so no, it isn't mostly useless.

 

"saved" as in reduced your damage by like 90 points.  Maybe it seems like that if you're left on 35 points after the arty hit.  But what if you had taken optics and vents, and not been spotted to get shot in the first place? 

 

The Awful doesn't have enough armor to make a difference.  80 mm of armor gets boosted 20%.  Your small spall liner absorbed 17 damage, for the price of an equipment slot.  It helps in ramming, but so does controlled impact.

 

View PostRadiantPup27709, on 20 March 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

Not on the waffle it isn't.  Shsl helped keep my gunner and loader alive when they would get knocked out on almost any shot to the turret without it. 

 

I'd rather have both vision equipment and GLD.  But crew protection is about the only think I can see. 


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TocFanKe4 #17 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:17 PM

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View PostBeta582, on 20 March 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

 

Spall liner has no affect on penetrating HE hits. Only non-penetrating HE hits and ramming.

 

Spall liner crew protection works for both penetrating and non-pentrating hits, though. 

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NetoAH5 #18 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:18 PM

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Very nice information and formula to have in mind.  I had done spall liner only in a couple of heavily armored tanks precisely to reduce artillery splash damage and protect my crew from critical injuries (O-I, T14 and Churchill I).  As I have progressed up the tiers and my crew has gained more experience I find that having sixth sense is more helpful in getting out of the way from spotted positions and in some cases allow you to move a few meters out of artillery's splash damage or move precisely when they fire.  I have used that equipment slot since to improve either my vision range or my rate of fire.



KillerDNA #19 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:20 PM

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View PostTocFanKe4, on 20 March 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

 

"saved" as in reduced your damage by like 90 points.  Maybe it seems like that if you're left on 35 points after the arty hit.  But what if you had taken optics and vents, and not been spotted to get shot in the first place? 

 

The Awful doesn't have enough armor to make a difference.  80 mm of armor gets boosted 20%.  Your small spall liner absorbed 17 damage, for the price of an equipment slot.  It helps in ramming, but so does controlled impact.

vents has such a negligible effect though I highly doubt taking it would help much. I used to like vents a lot thinking it made the difference but really it doesn't when I looked at the numbers.

and I ram a lot in the awful. it helps a ton. also love it when the M53/55 shell lands right next to me and does like 30 dmg and doesn't even track me.  


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MrWuvems #20 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:21 PM

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View PostTocFanKe4, on 20 March 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

 

Spall liner crew protection works for both penetrating and non-pentrating hits, though. 

 

and it should be noted that if you're using a spall-liner for crew protection, that investment needs to made in equipment (spall liner), crew skill (pain suppression), and consumables (premium med kid). Stacking bonuses is really how you get the system to work.

 

Unconfirmed but I've never had a double-crew knockout of my turret crew using a spall liner. For some reason you can have multiple turret crew killed off by single AP shells despite how AP shells are only supposed to be able to crit one thing internally (unless the loader was strapped to the side of the turret it shouldn't happen)






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