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Spall Liner is mostly useless


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Major Englush #41 Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:48 PM

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View Postsumplkrum, on 20 March 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Does anyone ever use:
Grousers
Cyclone Filters
CO2 Tanks
or Toolbox?

Since you only have three slots, I've never fit these in.

 

I know some who have used grousers to increase traverse speed on some tanks, but never the others.

 

I do run the Enhanced Suspension on my MT-25 and Pz 1 C -- they tend to go airborne quite a bit, and they keep me from tracking myself upon landing. Saved my bacon countless times.



TocFanKe4 #42 Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:51 PM

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View PostKillerDNA, on 20 March 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

same can be said about vents.

 

Maybe.  Vents stack with crew skills, though. So it follows that the more skilled your crew, the more boost you get.  BiA gives about the same skill boost as Vents.  But stacked together they become much more effective.  On the Tank Academy page, Dr Bodge simulated the effects of BiA and Vents, and they both give about a 0.2% increase in win rate and a 1.7% increase in DPG.  Stacked together, that can provide a nice boost.  He didn't do any calculations based on spall liner.  But based on his calculations, BiA and Vents together give a bigger boost than Optics alone.  That's a bit of a tricky situation because if you had BiA with Optics it would boost that as well.  But if you stack many skills with vents, it becomes worth it. 


 

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D3AD RELIGION #43 Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:55 PM

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I Only use Spall liner On my 5/4 Even then its for the Lolz .

 

 


KillerDNA #44 Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:01 PM

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View PostTocFanKe4, on 20 March 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

 

Maybe.  Vents stack with crew skills, though. So it follows that the more skilled your crew, the more boost you get.  BiA gives about the same skill boost as Vents.  But stacked together they become much more effective.  On the Tank Academy page, Dr Bodge simulated the effects of BiA and Vents, and they both give about a 0.2% increase in win rate and a 1.7% increase in DPG.  Stacked together, that can provide a nice boost.  He didn't do any calculations based on spall liner.  But based on his calculations, BiA and Vents together give a bigger boost than Optics alone.  That's a bit of a tricky situation because if you had BiA with Optics it would boost that as well.  But if you stack many skills with vents, it becomes worth it. 

 

yeah but when I looked at the hard numbers as to the benefit that it gave it really wasn't worth it. I since ditched vents on my ELC and Ru251 because the benefit was just so tiny that it didn't make a difference, even with a ton of crew skills.

Vents is kind of like mentor in a way. it helps, sure, but just not enough. So I'd rather take the 50hp saved from HE splash here and there rather than the 0.2% boost to anything that doesn't really matter anyway.


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Big Yeash #45 Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:02 PM

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I run the SH spall liner on the Tortoise to protect the crew - not that it's very effective at it. I run it on my Tier III freemiums because it's cheap, why not, and also RAMMING SPEED. I put a spall liner on the Charioteer, turns out, but that was long after I stopped playing the vehicle and its crew was since moved to the 183.

 

My Waffle also has a SH spall liner, for basically the same reason as the Tortoise - crew protection (not that it's the crew who are dying the most, hmm).

Plus, HE fire will often hid the heavily-armoured hull, or the gun rather than the thin turret superstructure. Since these are functionally splash damage only against your very thin superstructure, every little helps.

Plus, the Waffle can kill a dying IS-7 by a low-speed bump. It weighs 100 tonnes, RAMMING SPEED


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TocFanKe4 #46 Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:06 PM

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View PostKillerDNA, on 20 March 2017 - 04:01 PM, said:

 

yeah but when I looked at the hard numbers as to the benefit that it gave it really wasn't worth it. I since ditched vents on my ELC and Ru251 because the benefit was just so tiny that it didn't make a difference, even with a ton of crew skills.

Vents is kind of like mentor in a way. it helps, sure, but just not enough. So I'd rather take the 50hp saved from HE splash here and there rather than the 0.2% boost to anything that doesn't really matter anyway.

 

Win rate doesn't matter?  Damage per game doesn't matter?  Both BiA and Vents together give you a 0.4% win rate boost and a 3.4% damage per game boost.  If you don't think that's enough of a boost, then I guess the 2% increase in DPG for optics aren't important either. 

 

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SlavicHammer187 #47 Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:22 PM

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I'm kind of learning that unless you're a super serious competitive player, equipment doesn't do as much as people think. The only pieces I really care about are rammer and maybe gun laying drive/vert stabilizer.

 

Some brand New players think adding equipment and grinding skills will turn your KV-2 into a one shot derp terminator tank with a top speed of 50 and a 5 second reload but it's not the case.

 

I grinded to the Tiger II with a naked Tiger I, I'm far from a dominant player ..... I did pretty well I think I managed a winning record in the Tiger I. I'm keeping the Tiger I so I'll just add stuff later.



II NO x VICE II #48 Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:53 PM

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View PostTocFanKe4, on 20 March 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

Do not run it in a paper tank unless you have issues with crew death.  30 mm of armor boosted by 25% is not much of a boost at all.  And since most HE can pen 30 mm at that tier, spall liner does nothing.  It only protects crew health if you get penned. 

 

This seems to validate. I did try out the medium spall liner on it and my impression was that there was no difference that was apparent to me before and after. At least now it is not just a hunch for me :honoring:



Radio FIyer #49 Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:11 PM

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This is making me question some long held assumptions as well as old sources. Way back when, I had people telling me to put spall liners on my big slow tanks like the VK 45.02B and Maus to help protect them from artillery. I have a tendency to remove my Maus' spall liner often because it's a quick source of money, so I have had to operate off and on without it many times. It always felt to me that artillery and HESH rounds did less damage to me when I had it on. Maybe this was just luck and superstition, but my Maus always seems more resilient with spall liner. Hmm, I wish game developers would clarify on these points of confusion.

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Snorelacks #50 Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:22 PM

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I only have it in my Tortoise.


 


luds38 #51 Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:41 PM

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I wish there were more equipment choices that made you want to change them out all the time.  Be great for WG's wallet also.

 

I think there should be an equipment for carrying extra ammunition, there are a lot of tanks that run out quickly when bottom tier.



ralfybaby62 #52 Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:49 PM

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KV220.

Grousers on the C1 which makes a huge difference in being tracked 



xXlAmbitionzlXx #53 Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:51 PM

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I never have had it equipped because the effect it has is soo negligible compared to other equipment types.

Pit Friend #54 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:19 AM

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I used to have them on my super large tanks and my Pz. V/IV because ramming. But my big tanks still were getting demolished by artillery fire so I took them off and replaced them with Vents. And as an experiment I took it off the RamPanzer and still seem to be able to ram just as well.  I don't see much benefit to them anymore. 

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rainsilent #55 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:24 AM

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View PostRadio FIyer, on 20 March 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

This is making me question some long held assumptions as well as old sources. Way back when, I had people telling me to put spall liners on my big slow tanks like the VK 45.02B and Maus to help protect them from artillery. I have a tendency to remove my Maus' spall liner often because it's a quick source of money, so I have had to operate off and on without it many times. It always felt to me that artillery and HESH rounds did less damage to me when I had it on. Maybe this was just luck and superstition, but my Maus always seems more resilient with spall liner. Hmm, I wish game developers would clarify on these points of confusion.

 

Spall liner does protect from arty damage. It does rather minimal protection from direct hit non-pens however spall liner does wonders on reducing splash damage and preventing crew injuries from HE. Seeing as how it is kind of hard to get a direct hit with arty a spall liner actually does have use in that sense.

 

View PostTocFanKe4, on 20 March 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

 

Win rate doesn't matter?  Damage per game doesn't matter?  Both BiA and Vents together give you a 0.4% win rate boost and a 3.4% damage per game boost.  If you don't think that's enough of a boost, then I guess the 2% increase in DPG for optics aren't important either. 

 

Neither give a .4% win rate increase or 3.4% damage per game boost. They slightly improve the tank giving the player the ability to do more in game. The player has to be skilled enough to take advantage of those improvements.

 

View PostKillerDNA, on 20 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

 

yeah but when I looked at the hard numbers as to the benefit that it gave it really wasn't worth it. I since ditched vents on my ELC and Ru251 because the benefit was just so tiny that it didn't make a difference, even with a ton of crew skills.

Vents is kind of like mentor in a way. it helps, sure, but just not enough. So I'd rather take the 50hp saved from HE splash here and there rather than the 0.2% boost to anything that doesn't really matter anyway.

 

Vents is only particularly good on tanks where there aren't a lot of options in regards to equipment to fit. Basically tier 3 and lower and a few select higher tier tanks.

 

View PostTocFanKe4, on 20 March 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

 

Maybe.  Vents stack with crew skills, though. So it follows that the more skilled your crew, the more boost you get.  BiA gives about the same skill boost as Vents.  But stacked together they become much more effective.  On the Tank Academy page, Dr Bodge simulated the effects of BiA and Vents, and they both give about a 0.2% increase in win rate and a 1.7% increase in DPG.  Stacked together, that can provide a nice boost.  He didn't do any calculations based on spall liner.  But based on his calculations, BiA and Vents together give a bigger boost than Optics alone.  That's a bit of a tricky situation because if you had BiA with Optics it would boost that as well.  But if you stack many skills with vents, it becomes worth it. 

 

BiA gives twice the bonus as vents. It gives the same bonus as the food consumable which also is twice as much as vents. Also no they don't give a bigger boost to view range than optics alone. A tank with 400 base view range will have a 440m view range when only equipped with optics. When equipped with BiA and vents it is just over 417m. BiA and vents alone is less than half of the bonus that optics provide. Heck every other crew bonus combined with BiA and vents still does not improve view range as much as optics do alone.


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KING FROG #56 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:44 AM

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View PostTocFanKe4, on 20 March 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

 

I think this post also shows how people overestimate the effect of the spall liner.  You run spall liner, and you get hit by arty for 30 damage.  You pay attention to that result because it validates your choice of equipment.  It feeds into a confirmation bias that spall liner is effective against arty.  If you weren't running spall liner, that shot for 30 damage would have hit for 41 damage mostly because you were far enough away from the impact position.  You don't pay attention to the 41 damage because you think "whew, that guy just missed".  It's a confirmation bias that you notice low roll arty shots when you have spall liner on. 

 

The only thing you should even consider running spall liner on is tanks with very heavy armor that can mount the super heavy liner with 50% boost. 

 

I'd like to point out that a spall liner on a TOG is like lipstick on a pig.  You're boosting that damage absorbed by your 76 mm of armor to 114.  It's absorbing like 40 more HP on your TOG, if you get splashed.  Arty it hits you, your roof is like 19 mm.  You're usually getting penned in a TOG, where the spall liner gives no damage reduction. 

 

 

Do not run it in a paper tank unless you have issues with crew death.  30 mm of armor boosted by 25% is not much of a boost at all.  And since most HE can pen 30 mm at that tier, spall liner does nothing.  It only protects crew health if you get penned. 

 

 Yeh, spall liner on a TOG is useless. Any super slow tank really. If an arty wants your TOG, the only thing that helps is hard cover. 

 Spall liner on a V/IV now, well, that is debatable.

 Best bet is to be mindful of arty. I only have it on the V/IV and it gets switched out occasionally. A persistent or lucky arty may get me now and then. But not often. Even in me TOG.


 

 


TocFanKe4 #57 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:51 AM

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View Postrainsilent, on 20 March 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

 

Spall liner does protect from arty damage. It does rather minimal protection from direct hit non-pens however spall liner does wonders on reducing splash damage and preventing crew injuries from HE. Seeing as how it is kind of hard to get a direct hit with arty a spall liner actually does have use in that sense.

 

 

Neither give a .4% win rate increase or 3.4% damage per game boost. They slightly improve the tank giving the player the ability to do more in game. The player has to be skilled enough to take advantage of those improvements.

 

 

Vents is only particularly good on tanks where there aren't a lot of options in regards to equipment to fit. Basically tier 3 and lower and a few select higher tier tanks.

 

 

BiA gives twice the bonus as vents. It gives the same bonus as the food consumable which also is twice as much as vents. Also no they don't give a bigger boost to view range than optics alone. A tank with 400 base view range will have a 440m view range when only equipped with optics. When equipped with BiA and vents it is just over 417m. BiA and vents alone is less than half of the bonus that optics provide. Heck every other crew bonus combined with BiA and vents still does not improve view range as much as optics do alone.

 

 

I don't agree with a lot of what's written here. 

 

BiA gives a 5 percent skill boost, not 10 like food. I don't know where you're getting 10. BiA gives the exact same skill boost as vents. The win rate and damage increase for BiA and vents was found through the analysis of hundreds of games. I'm not talking that BiA and vents will give you more vision than optics. I'm saying it gives you better performance in win rate and damage on average. If you stack BiA, vents, recon, and situational awareness together, you can approach the view range you get from optics while having something else in that equipment slot. 

 

Minimal protection from direct hit non pens but wonders from splash? If you get a direct hit non pen from HE, that's the most damage the spall liner will absorb. As you get farther away, damage falls way off. Therefore the amount absorbed will be much less. 


 

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rainsilent #58 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:51 AM

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View PostKING FROG, on 20 March 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

 

 Yeh, spall liner on a TOG is useless. Any super slow tank really. If an arty wants your TOG, the only thing that helps is hard cover. 

 Spall liner on a V/IV now, well, that is debatable.

 Best bet is to be mindful of arty. I only have it on the V/IV and it gets switched out occasionally. A persistent or lucky arty may get me now and then. But not often. Even in me TOG.

 

Not completely useless on a TOG. If you are leaving the entirety of your tank exposed the arty is unlucky to not hit you. However if you manage to cover most of your tank from arty fire and the arty splashes the spall liner will really take away the damage done. Also spall liner is really big for saving the crew in super slow tanks. You know you are going to get hit a lot by arty if they are good at picking targets. The last thing a super slow tank needs is having a crew member or two get knocked out by arty. I've actually seen a super slow tank get knocked out by arty before due to loss of crew members rather than loss of tank hp.

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rainsilent #59 Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:06 AM

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View PostTocFanKe4, on 20 March 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

 

I don't agree with a lot of what's written here. 

 

BiA gives a 5 percent skill boost, not 10 like food. I don't know where you're getting 10. BiA gives the exact same skill boost as vents. The win rate and damage increase for BiA and vents was found through the analysis of hundreds of games. I'm not talking that BiA and vents will give you more vision than optics. I'm saying it gives you better performance in win rate and damage on average. If you stack BiA, vents, recon, and situational awareness together, you can approach the view range you get from optics while having something else in that equipment slot. 

 

Minimal protection from direct hit non pens but wonders from splash? If you get a direct hit non pen from HE, that's the most damage the spall liner will absorb. As you get farther away, damage falls way off. Therefore the amount absorbed will be much less. 

 

Your right about BiA and vents. I was just about to edit my post you quoted for the correction after I made my post above. That was my mistake.

 

As for the win rate and damage that is from a skilled player doing a test of with and without over time. Sure it is repeatable but the difference made in that one person is for that one person. You can't then say; "Oh it gives a x increase if anyone uses it." It doesn't work that way. The difference it will make to a scrub player is so negligible to the point where it might as well be naught. The difference for someone who uses them as a crutch would be significantly greater.

 

Yes the view range difference is 438. something to 440 however the real difference is 438. something to 468 since you are swapping the optics for vents.

 

The damage taken away in terms of sheer damage is the most from a direct hit non impact however it isn't the greatest percentage of damage taken away. A spall liner will quickly (Edit: I had exponentially here originally but people could easily mistake what I meant by exponentially) decrease the damage taken from near misses the greater the distance away the impact. Considering that high tier artillery have a bit of a hard time getting direct hits on tanks like the Maus when sitting still you can very quickly reduce the damage you take from near misses forcing the arty player to actually hit you to do any notable damage outside of tracking you. That can do a lot for a tank in terms of surviving against arty considering that arty relies on splash damage more than direct damage to do damage a majority of the time.


Edited by rainsilent, 21 March 2017 - 01:14 AM.

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olemanbyers #60 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:07 AM

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View PostKillerDNA, on 20 March 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

same can be said about vents.

 

vents=500-600k BIA perk




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