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Ranked Battles Competition Player Skill

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Pontiac Pat #1 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:08 PM

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As someone who has participated in ranked ladders before, and having seen Wargaming's failed attempts to get it working so far, I am posting this to explain some comprehensive changes I think are needed to help this mode be a success.

 

Make no mistake, I think the concept of the ladder is solid and I think it will succeed if players have enough incentive to invest their time and energy.

 

1 - Drop the current point system completely.  Because platoons are not allowed, this mode is, by definition, an individual performance showcase.  Build on that.  Have point awards be based predominantly on where you fall within your team.

 

If it's 7v7, then the top 3 base xp earners should get positive points and the bottom 3 xp earners should get negative points.  Those points should mirror one another such that the negative points for 7th place are the same as the positive points for 1st place.  For example, 1st = 3 points, 2nd = 2 points, 3rd = 1 point, 4th = 0 points, 5th = -1 point, 6th = -2 points, 7th = -3 points.  IFF you have to keep a win/loss modifier, then have it be a simple +1 for winning and -1 for losing.  That way the top 2 on the losing team still advance, along with the top 4 on the winning team.

 

The reason that mirroring is *essential* is that the entire point is to separate the players over time based on their individual performances.  Therefore, those players who are better than average will rise faster than those who are not.  Having the pluses and minuses given out after each battle be equal will guarantee an eventual even spread of players through the leagues.  Given enough time, the 'average' players will end up in the middle league, with each player sorting to the league that fits their performance level.

 

The fine details of the points can be adjusted so long as the key principles are retained.  Those principles are: 1 - that individual performance earns more than team performance, and 2 - that the total positive points among all players/teams is the same as the total negative points.

 

2 - Allow players to go down league as well as up league.  This is essential to achieving a true long term distribution of player skill among the leagues.

 

3 - Keep at least some of your progress from season to season.  Losing all of your progress each season drives away players who do not have as much time to spend farming points and destroys the long term standing which is what makes ladders work best.  My suggestion would be either:

   a. Lock in the league of each player after each season, but losing any excess points such that everyone starts at the minimum number of points for their league at the beginning of each season, or

   b. Have 3 leagues that are 'steps', which you lock into at the end of each season.  Those would be "Iron League", "Gold League", and "Senior Master League".  You could still drop down leagues during the season if your performance falters, but you would maintain at least the minimum number of points for Gold or Senior leagues if you ended the season at or above those leagues.

   c. Include the ability to miss a season and pick up where you left off.  Nobody that earns a league should be punished because they happen to be on vacation when the next season comes around.

 

4 - Obviously, prizing would need to be adjusted to fit the new model so someone doesn't get to Senior league and then just sit there and only play 1 game each season to earn that level of prizing.  Having a minimum number of games played to qualify for prizing would do the trick.  Perhaps 25 or so - enough to make them demonstrate they are still at that level of performance.  Another option would be to have prizing based on your improvement from season start.  If you end the season X number of points higher than you began the season then you win Y prize.

 

5 - Give full silver and xp earnings, and maybe a little bonus to silver earned based on what league you are in. (perhaps +5% for each league above "Iron" ) Why, because this is a competition people will want to use premium consumables and ammo if they can to gain every possible advantage.  The top league should not only be for those that can afford to play full premium.  Skill should be top priority, not income.  In fact, you may want to consider not allowing premium consumables/ammo in this mode at all to even the playing field. (I know this will be highly controversial, but it would remove the need for any additional silver bonuses in the higher leagues.)

 

If you implement the above outlined changes I am nearly certain that Ranked Battles will become a huge success.

 

Thank you,

Pontiac Pat


Edited by Pontiac Pat, 04 May 2017 - 08:07 PM.

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CHROMA Gold #2 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:20 PM

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Bump

IAmJonReaper #3 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:27 PM

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I like it. :great:

 

 


allhavoc #4 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:30 PM

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Mostly agree with your ideas, but not on the point system.  I think the current system of rewarding points works for me, i.e.: Winning team gains points, losing team loses points. With personal performance determining how much you gain or lose.  I think that system is fair and does reward individual contribution to the team win.

 

I think the point system frustrates players because they are just shown the points going up & down and have no explanation given.

 

That being said, ranked battles could be so much better than they currently are.  Feels like were participating in a beta for a mode WG will never actually give us.


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Pontiac Pat #5 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:34 PM

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The fine details of the points can be adjusted so long as the key principles are retained.  Those principles are: 1 - that individual performance earns more than team performance, and 2 - that the total positive points among all players/teams is the same as the total negative points.

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neorioter #6 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:34 PM

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For the God's sake, please participate!


Pontiac Pat #7 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:38 PM

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View Postneorioter, on 04 May 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

For the God's sake, please participate!

 

Nice idea for a thread!  Now I'm curious if we'll get enough info to know the total.

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loki131313 #8 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:42 PM

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Good ideas, and I like that they are constructive! Here's my feedback-

 

1. You can't completely drop Win/Loss. How you contribute to your team has to be a part of the Ranked Battled. Period. That said, I think that the system could be modified to place greater emphasis on individual performance within the team context- in other words, make it so that your individual stats have greater weight than they do now.

 

2. Agreed that you should be able to go up or down leagues for the long-term.

 

3. Long-term leagues seem like a good idea.

 

4&5- no comment.

 

Overall, the problem I have with ranked battles is that they just aren't important enough. The rewards for playing (and winning) should be enhanced. As it is, they show up for a weekend, and disappear ... and who really cares?



Pontiac Pat #9 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:47 PM

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Exactly - give me a reason to play it without having to clear my weekend and put life on hold.

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JP Negri Coder #10 Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:57 PM

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View PostPontiac Pat, on 04 May 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

2 - Allow players to go down league as well as up league.  This is essential to achieving a true long term distribution of player skill among the leagues.

3 - Keep at least some of your progress from season to season.  

5 - Give full silver and xp earnings, and maybe a little bonus to silver earned based on what league you are in.

 

If you implement the above outlined changes I am nearly certain that Ranked Battles will become a huge success.

 

 

Mostly these!

I'm a potato, non-competitive, but please allow me to put in some thinking:

Not on every, but more often than on pub matches, I saw a greater level of cooperation. To give incentive  to these kind of collaboration I think that at least some points, less than the individual performance, should go to the wining team, and subtracted from the loosing team (to keep symmetry).

 

And, if possible (by having enough players) restrict the MM to Same League players. I climbed (slowly, potato!) from Silver to Platinum; and only then, on the game chat, discovered that some of my team mates were from Gold.

​And please, provide these data on the public API, so I can get these information and put on display for bragging rights.
 

Regards,
JP Negri


Good Battles! - JP Negri Coder


Pontiac Pat #11 Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:02 PM

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View PostJP Negri Coder, on 04 May 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

​And please, provide these data on the public API, so I can get these information and put on display for bragging rights.

I like this idea^^^


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DoggieDaddyDave #12 Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:04 PM

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View PostPontiac Pat, on 04 May 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

Exactly - give me a reason to play it without having to clear my weekend and put life on hold.

You mean there's life away from WoT?  :teethhappy:


 

 

 


BrogueOne #13 Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:35 PM

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The biggest trick is simply getting enough players to take time away from regular Multiplayer. Low population was the whole reason you could be in Master League on a team full of Silvers. I think the best course of action would be to somehow incorporate Ranked play into regular Multiplayer with the option to opt in or out.....or be automatically placed into a Ranked queue if you opted in and chose a vehicle of the correct tier.

II NO x VICE II #14 Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:43 PM

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All good ideas on here ... Would like to see more info on the points currently awarded. I am mostly potato but played some matches and failed to understand how the points were awarded etc. Perhaps always being placed opposed to Senior Master's ?

 

Perhaps a warning/message/system indicating higher level of coordination required based on selected teams might be a good idea (MM knows the level of the players implicitly). This could force players like me to tow the line better with other players better when situation clearly demands it etc. Many games where, team wanders off into four or five different directions allowing just two coordinated op-for players cleaning out all the closets in a mere few minutes etc.



Cruiser Abukuma #15 Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:46 PM

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oooooor we could just copy world of warships... either way that'd ensure ranked battles success and give players the drive to do well because it actually rewards a premium vehicle for those who reach rank 1

 

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Cruiser Abukuma #16 Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:49 PM

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ooooorrrrrrrrrrrr

 


 

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happydundee #17 Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:27 PM

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View PostPontiac Pat, on 04 May 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

As someone who has participated in ranked ladders before, and having seen Wargaming's failed attempts to get it working so far, I am posting this to explain some comprehensive changes I think are needed to help this mode be a success.

 

Make no mistake, I think the concept of the ladder is solid and I think it will succeed if players have enough incentive to invest their time and energy.

 

1 - Drop the current point system completely.  Because platoons are not allowed, this mode is, by definition, an individual performance showcase.  Build on that.  Have point awards be based predominantly on where you fall within your team.

 

If it's 7v7, then the top 3 base xp earners should get positive points and the bottom 3 xp earners should get negative points.  Those points should mirror one another such that the negative points for 7th place are the same as the positive points for 1st place.  For example, 1st = 3 points, 2nd = 2 points, 3rd = 1 point, 4th = 0 points, 5th = -1 point, 6th = -2 points, 7th = -3 points.  IFF you have to keep a win/loss modifier, then have it be a simple +1 for winning and -1 for losing.  That way the top 2 on the losing team still advance, along with the top 4 on the winning team.

 

The reason that mirroring is *essential* is that the entire point is to separate the players over time based on their individual performances.  Therefore, those players who are better than average will rise faster than those who are not.  Having the pluses and minuses given out after each battle be equal will guarantee an eventual even spread of players through the leagues.  Given enough time, the 'average' players will end up in the middle league, with each player sorting to the league that fits their performance level.

 

The fine details of the points can be adjusted so long as the key principles are retained.  Those principles are: 1 - that individual performance earns more than team performance, and 2 - that the total positive points among all players/teams is the same as the total negative points.

 

2 - Allow players to go down league as well as up league.  This is essential to achieving a true long term distribution of player skill among the leagues.

 

3 - Keep at least some of your progress from season to season.  Losing all of your progress each season drives away players who do not have as much time to spend farming points and destroys the long term standing which is what makes ladders work best.  My suggestion would be either:

   a. Lock in the league of each player after each season, but losing any excess points such that everyone starts at the minimum number of points for their league at the beginning of each season, or

   b. Have 3 leagues that are 'steps', which you lock into at the end of each season.  Those would be "Iron League", "Gold League", and "Senior Master League".  You could still drop down leagues during the season if your performance falters, but you would maintain at least the minimum number of points for Gold or Senior leagues if you ended the season at or above those leagues.

   c. Include the ability to miss a season and pick up where you left off.  Nobody that earns a league should be punished because they happen to be on vacation when the next season comes around.

 

4 - Obviously, prizing would need to be adjusted to fit the new model so someone doesn't get to Senior league and then just sit there and only play 1 game each season to earn that level of prizing.  Having a minimum number of games played to qualify for prizing would do the trick.  Perhaps 25 or so - enough to make them demonstrate they are still at that level of performance.  Another option would be to have prizing based on your improvement from season start.  If you end the season X number of points higher than you began the season then you win Y prize.

 

5 - Give full silver and xp earnings, and maybe a little bonus to silver earned based on what league you are in. (perhaps +5% for each league above "Iron" ) Why, because this is a competition people will want to use premium consumables and ammo if they can to gain every possible advantage.  The top league should not only be for those that can afford to play full premium.  Skill should be top priority, not income.  In fact, you may want to consider not allowing premium consumables/ammo in this mode at all to even the playing field. (I know this will be highly controversial, but it would remove the need for any additional silver bonuses in the higher leagues.)

 

If you implement the above outlined changes I am nearly certain that Ranked Battles will become a huge success.

 

Thank you,

Pontiac Pat

 

This is excellent, and should be implemented. Well done. 

 

 



Edgewater76 #18 Posted 04 May 2017 - 11:08 PM

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My concern with the proposed point system is if you have teams of mixed leagues/skill level.  

 

For example my WN8 would indicate I am better than average but far from unicum, however I was top 3 on most of my teams.  So with this scoring all I think all I would need to do is play enough and I would make it to the top league.  I am not sure there were enough ready good players in the que to limit someone like me from advancing to the top.  

 

If the matches were only made up of people in a fixed point range/league I think this scoring would work.   But I am not sure there were enough playersplaying ranked for this type of match making to work.  

 

Also note right now now I do not think we know enough about the scoring and would like to know more.

 

Edge



Pontiac Pat #19 Posted 05 May 2017 - 09:12 AM

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That's where the time factor comes in.  Retaining the league earned from one season to the next will allow enough players to filter into all the leagues so your not one of only 5 people in your league.  It will take time, but eventually things would settle in.  One way to speed that along would be to reduce the number of leagues.

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Pontiac Pat #20 Posted 24 June 2017 - 09:04 PM

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It's time to bump this thread from last season.

Looking over the suggestions, it appears the only thing they have taken to heart is trying to match you with similar league opponents.  They have ignored the key principles of the point system: 1 - that individual performance has the potential to earn more than team performance (in all leagues), and 2 - that the total positive points among all players/teams is the same as the total negative points.

C'mon WG - you can do better than this!

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