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Evidence that teams may not be as bad as you think...inside some numbers:

Tier 9 Tier 10 heavies w/r

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BULLPUPBAKERST1 #1 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:00 PM

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You can use numbers/statistics to support just about any claim you want to make within reason...

 

With that said, I noticed something today while looking at my portal page that lends toward the argument that our high tier teams may not be as awful as we think they are...consider:

 

I am not a very good Heavy tank player. Unless I'm playing a particular tank over and over without other classes mixed in, I have generally bad to mediocre battles in my tier 9 and 10 heavies. I noticed my win rates on tier 9 and tier 10 heavies as follows:

 

tank / battles / win %

 

E5 / 114 / 55.26

T57 / 20 / 70

Chieftan / 36 / 61.11

wz111 / 46 / 65.22

VK-B / 122 / 58.2

type 4 / 48 / 58.33

m103 / 35 / 51.43  (this 35 was entirely walletted once upon a time)

E75 / 26 / 50

 

Though overall small sample size, I think this is a demonstration that perhaps our teams aren't as awful as we think. 

 


 

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JesterUSMC #2 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:03 PM

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No, they still are quite horrible.

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RlMON #3 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:07 PM

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Why are you still bad then? 

LIBARYKEEPER483 #4 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:08 PM

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VoltaicGrunt #5 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:17 PM

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My last tier 10 game, a total of 21 players managed less than 1000 damage. 

RU 251 NEEDS MORE BULLETS


BULLPUPBAKERST1 #6 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:29 PM

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View PostBlooody8, on 19 May 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

Why are you still bad then? 

 

my mom didn't love me when I was a child

 

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JesterUSMC #7 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:33 PM

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View PostBULLPUPBAKERST1, on 19 May 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

It's my ISP

 

FTFY

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sumplkrum #8 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:33 PM

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View PostBULLPUPBAKERST1, on 19 May 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

You can use numbers/statistics to support just about any claim you want to make within reason...

 

With that said, I noticed something today while looking at my portal page that lends toward the argument that our high tier teams may not be as awful as we think they are...consider:

 

I am not a very good Heavy tank player. Unless I'm playing a particular tank over and over without other classes mixed in, I have generally bad to mediocre battles in my tier 9 and 10 heavies. I noticed my win rates on tier 9 and tier 10 heavies as follows:

 

tank / battles / win %

 

E5 / 114 / 55.26

T57 / 20 / 70

Chieftan / 36 / 61.11

wz111 / 46 / 65.22

VK-B / 122 / 58.2

type 4 / 48 / 58.33

m103 / 35 / 51.43  (this 35 was entirely walletted once upon a time)

E75 / 26 / 50

 

Though overall small sample size, I think this is a demonstration that perhaps our teams aren't as awful as we think. 

 

 

People on the opposing team would disagree.  :)
Stat masturbation:

BULLPUPBAKERST1 #9 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:34 PM

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View PostJesterUSMC, on 19 May 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

 

FTFY

 

Thanks...lost my logical side for a moment

 

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lysteria85 #10 Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:59 PM

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Win rates doesn't say nothing about player - you can have unicum status and die in every battle with win rate 48% or be "bad" player with WN8 under 700 and have win rate 56% - just becuase you were lucky and your team used to play good. Survival rate or kill/death rate also doesn't say nothing - you might be light tank player, have low kill rate/high death rate (because that's how light work - he spots and then die, doesn't kill a lot of reds) and be awesome or you might survive almost every game in some bush in some corner without even shooting and have low WN8 because of being useless for team but have awesome survival rate. That's just numbers

 


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JesterUSMC #11 Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:00 PM

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View Postlysteria85, on 19 May 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Win rates doesn't say nothing about player - you can have unicum status and die in every battle with win rate 48% or be "bad" player with WN8 under 700 and have win rate 56% - just becuase you were lucky and your team used to play good. Survival rate or kill/death rate also doesn't say nothing - you might be light tank player, have low kill rate/high death rate (because that's how light work - he spots and then die, doesn't kill a lot of reds) and be awesome or you might survive almost every game in some bush in some corner without even shooting and have low WN8 because of being useless for team but have awesome survival rate. That's just numbers

 

 

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UngainlyTitan1 #12 Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:06 PM

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View Postlysteria85, on 19 May 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Win rates doesn't say nothing about player - you can have unicum status and die in every battle with win rate 48% or be "bad" player with WN8 under 700 and have win rate 56% - just becuase you were lucky and your team used to play good. Survival rate or kill/death rate also doesn't say nothing - you might be light tank player, have low kill rate/high death rate (because that's how light work - he spots and then die, doesn't kill a lot of reds) and be awesome or you might survive almost every game in some bush in some corner without even shooting and have low WN8 because of being useless for team but have awesome survival rate. That's just numbers

 

 

​Don't think this is true, Any unicum I have ever bothered to look up the stats of had a win rate of >=60% or so.

 


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korbendallas-01 #13 Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:28 PM

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View Postlysteria85, on 19 May 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Win rates doesn't say nothing about player - you can have unicum status and die in every battle with win rate 48% or be "bad" player with WN8 under 700 and have win rate 56% - just becuase you were lucky and your team used to play good.

 

That's simply not true. Yes you can be lucky some of the time, but you won't always be. Sure I have winrates of 100 % on some tanks (I even made three games in one of them!), but that does not mean that I'm just lucky in a T-34 (234 games, 61.70 %).

 

Even more important, WN8 does not cover spotting damage, and is thus utterly useless for comparing medium or light tanks. So yes, you can be an amazing players with a high winrate and a mediocre WN8, if you only drive scouts.



TheDepauperate #14 Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:11 PM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 19 May 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

 

That's simply not true. Yes you can be lucky some of the time, but you won't always be. Sure I have winrates of 100 % on some tanks (I even made three games in one of them!), but that does not mean that I'm just lucky in a T-34 (234 games, 61.70 %).

 

Even more important, WN8 does not cover spotting damage, and is thus utterly useless for comparing medium or light tanks. So yes, you can be an amazing players with a high winrate and a mediocre WN8, if you only drive scouts.

 

I think that saying WN8 is "useless for comparing mediums and lights" is a serious overstatement, even if it's a less accurate measure [and to be fair, everyone knows it has flaws for any class].  With maybe a few exceptions, I personally dont think that there are that many lights that are totally unsuited to dealing damage, let alone mediums.  The target damage for lights is also set low to offset this.  I could see it being a bit more unreliable at lower skill levels, but I would hypothesise that "skilled" light tank drivers don't have trouble adding enough straight damage to most of their games to keep their stats on par, in general, with their "skill".  If nothing else, good light tankers stay alive longer, and even tanks that have very poor guns have better opportunities to deal damage in the end-game.

korbendallas-01 #15 Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:35 PM

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View PostTheDepauperate, on 19 May 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

I think that saying WN8 is "useless for comparing mediums and lights" is a serious overstatement, even if it's a less accurate measure [and to be fair, everyone knows it has flaws for any class].  With maybe a few exceptions, I personally dont think that there are that many lights that are totally unsuited to dealing damage, let alone mediums.  The target damage for lights is also set low to offset this.

 

The target damage doesn't matter, WN8 promotes bad play: Yolo scouts with high spotting numbers get rewarded, careful scouts that keep back and provide useful spot for a long part of the game are not. Like, not at all. Nada, zilch, nothing.

 

No, I don't think it's an overstatement, when the main (in case of scouts) or partial (in case of mediums) purpose of a vehicle class is completely ignored, or even replaced by bad incentive.

 

View PostTheDepauperate, on 19 May 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

I would hypothesise that "skilled" light tank drivers don't have trouble adding enough straight damage to most of their games to keep their stats on par

 

Sure they can pad their stats, but that only means they can pad their stats, not that they are good scouts. In the best case scenario, that would measure how good light tank drivers are able to use their tanks as mediums. Don't get me wrong, that is part of being a scout, but not at all the most important part.

 

As far as I know, WG does not deliver assisted damage values, so the creators of WN8 have no way including it. The error is made by people using it for anything but comparing heavies.



TheDepauperate #16 Posted 19 May 2017 - 11:43 PM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 19 May 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

 

The target damage doesn't matter, WN8 promotes bad play: Yolo scouts with high spotting numbers get rewarded, careful scouts that keep back and provide useful spot for a long part of the game are not. Like, not at all. Nada, zilch, nothing.

 

No, I don't think it's an overstatement, when the main (in case of scouts) or partial (in case of mediums) purpose of a vehicle class is completely ignored, or even replaced by bad incentive.

 

 

Sure they can pad their stats, but that only means they can pad their stats, not that they are good scouts. In the best case scenario, that would measure how good light tank drivers are able to use their tanks as mediums. Don't get me wrong, that is part of being a scout, but not at all the most important part.

 

As far as I know, WG does not deliver assisted damage values, so the creators of WN8 have no way including it. The error is made by people using it for anything but comparing heavies.

 

Actually, IIRC, spotting is capped in the WN8 calculation for exactly that reason; so a person cannot YOLO to get a bunch of spots, die, and still get a good WN8.  In fact the whole point was to balance the equation on what actually helped the team win.  That's also why defense of the flag is much more heavily weighted than capture points.  They found that people returning to defend the flag is a much better predictor of winning, in general, than people who just try to get some points for a capture.  Damage has the highest weight, and that makes sense, because the whole point is to kill enemy tanks. So yes, target damage does matter, because as you said, a scout that plays carefully will be alive in the endgame when their damage potential is maximized.  Thats not a bad incentive.

You're correct, the WG API that they use to get the stats doesn't provide assist damage, so they couldn't incorporate it into the equation.  That doesn't mean it promotes bad play.  I'd be curious what evidence you use to make that assertion.  That's not to say people can't play "poorly" and still have a high WN8 -- I have definitely seen it, and it's really annoying.  But, I've seen many, many more people in-game who I know have excellent stats, that just play exceptionally well.

As I said, it's clearly got flaws.  There are known "stat-padding" tanks for example where the target damage is ridiculously low, but that's evident within anyone's stats.  And there are always going to be exceptions... but that doesn't negate its usefulness in a general sense.  I think, back to the original point, that a good scout will have a good WN8 based on their win rate, spotting, kills, defense points, etc.  A great scout, as you put it, needs to be able to leverage the abilities of their tank to do damage as well.

Edited by TheDepauperate, 19 May 2017 - 11:50 PM.


Gallant Prime #17 Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:13 AM

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View PostUngainlyTitan1, on 19 May 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

 

​Don't think this is true, Any unicum I have ever bothered to look up the stats of had a win rate of >=60% or so.

 

 

Do I count?  :trollface:  Part of the problem with winrate is that platoons can help that. 

 

As for OP:

I am not sure what you are trying to show.  All those wins could be base captures. 

 


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korbendallas-01 #18 Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:53 AM

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View PostTheDepauperate, on 19 May 2017 - 11:43 PM, said:

but that doesn't negate its usefulness in a general sense.

 

I think you missed the point.

 

Yolo scouting - rewarded

Spotting - not part in any way

 

That's all you need to know. Everything else is window-dressing. Can a scout make kills? Sure. Would he be a good scout if he abandons spotting to make kills? Yes, according to WN8.

 

So no, it's exactly "in a general sense" that it's useless.



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View Postlysteria85, on 19 May 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Win rates doesn't say nothing about player - you can have unicum status and die in every battle with win rate 48% or be "bad" player with WN8 under 700 and have win rate 56% - just becuase you were lucky and your team used to play good. Survival rate or kill/death rate also doesn't say nothing - you might be light tank player, have low kill rate/high death rate (because that's how light work - he spots and then die, doesn't kill a lot of reds) and be awesome or you might survive almost every game in some bush in some corner without even shooting and have low WN8 because of being useless for team but have awesome survival rate. That's just numbers

 

I don't think I have seen a Unicum with a 48% WR nor have I seen a 700 WN8 player with a 56% WR


   

 

                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                

 


TheDepauperate #20 Posted 20 May 2017 - 01:12 AM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 20 May 2017 - 12:53 AM, said:

 

I think you missed the point.

 

Yolo scouting - rewarded

Spotting - not part in any way

 

That's all you need to know. Everything else is window-dressing. Can a scout make kills? Sure. Would he be a good scout if he abandons spotting to make kills? Yes, according to WN8.

 

So no, it's exactly "in a general sense" that it's useless.

 

You're ignoring every other factor that goes into the calculation -- it's a terrible argument.  As I said, if you cared to look up the formula for WN8 before you blithely denounce it as meaningless, YOLO scoting is not rewarded.  I'm pretty sure the max is ~3, and if you're "scouting" then you should do just as well on that one metric alone as a YOLO scout.  Then there's everything else you're blatantly ignoring to try and make your blanket statement hold water: win rate (a good scout impacts the game, has a higher w/r; a YOLO dies before he impacts the game, leaving w/r to chance), damage (a good scout survives, does damage; a YOLO dies early, no damage), base capture, base defense, etc etc. All of these things are factored into WN8.
**In every metric, a good scout will outperform a YOLO scout, and will have a higher WN8**

Sure, assist damage is clearly very important for a scout, but just because that metric isnt included it doesn't completely invalidate the stat.  Everything else is also important.







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