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Evidence that teams may not be as bad as you think...inside some numbers:

Tier 9 Tier 10 heavies w/r

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Gregularity #41 Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:30 PM

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WN8 is most accurate with arty and TDs as damage is their main purpose. Least accurate is scouts and then mediums.. heavies are the middle as damage is important but taking hits for others is unmeasured. Scout wn8 just demonstrates your ability to damage enemies in a tank not designed for heavy combat. So while wn8 is not all telling it is difficult to maintain a high wn8 with a scout and requires a high level of skill, just skill in the wrong area.

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xXlAmbitionzlXx #42 Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:40 PM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 20 May 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

 

Yes, a medium tank is better at firing its gun than a light tank.

 

Are you surprised about this?

 

Doing damage in light tanks is hard... 



TheDepauperate #43 Posted 20 May 2017 - 09:20 PM

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View PostGregularity, on 20 May 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

WN8 is most accurate with arty and TDs as damage is their main purpose. Least accurate is scouts and then mediums.. heavies are the middle as damage is important but taking hits for others is unmeasured. Scout wn8 just demonstrates your ability to damage enemies in a tank not designed for heavy combat. So while wn8 is not all telling it is difficult to maintain a high wn8 with a scout and requires a high level of skill, just skill in the wrong area.

 

This is perhaps closer to the truth, and I do agree that including blocked damage would help for heavy tanks.  Certainly there could be improvements made if the data could be collected.  I think WN8 is dying though, so it's not likely to happen.

Keep in mind that, at least up until this last update, all the values are based on expected numbers for a particular vehicle.  This helps improve validity for scouts in particular because they aren't compared to TD/med/heavies.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, scouts aren't expected to do as much damage, so they have a lower expected value.  It also accounts for spots, kills, defense, and win rate.  If you read the wiki, the logic behind how it was designed is very well reasoned, and the limitations are pointed out.  Essentially, they tried to create a metric that indicated how much you're contributing to the team towards winning.  A scout can certainly help their team win by getting assist damage, but a more effective scout is going to be able to spot some people, survive to do some damage/finish off some tanks in endgame, defend the base when possible, and help their team win.  I'd be curious for someone to show some examples of players who excel at "scouting" (with a sufficient sample size/# of battles) where assist damage numbers are massive without the correlated increase in win rate, spots, kills and damage.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting it's a perfect metric by any means, and you could possibly make the argument that there are a few tanks in the game so unsuited to getting damage that the metric is useless... However, just that saying it's "useless" for all scouts because it doesn't include assist damage is irrational.  The whole is more than the individual parts.

 

Anyway, not sure how many other ways to say it.  But anyway curious can read abot it at http://wiki.wneffici...ats_to_Validity


Edited by TheDepauperate, 20 May 2017 - 09:33 PM.


Benefit87 #44 Posted 20 May 2017 - 09:50 PM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 20 May 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:

 

So yolo scouting is not punished, doing little damage is.

They are the same thing



korbendallas-01 #45 Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:03 AM

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View PostxXlAmbitionzlXx, on 20 May 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

Doing damage in light tanks is hard... 

 

That, and WN8 does not reflect their main activity.

 

That's why WN8 is useless as a comparison value.



korbendallas-01 #46 Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:04 AM

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View PostBenefit87, on 20 May 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

They are the same thing

 

Yolo scouting is the same as camping? The same as AFKing?



korbendallas-01 #47 Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:13 AM

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View PostTheDepauperate, on 20 May 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

Keep in mind that, at least up until this last update, all the values are based on expected numbers for a particular vehicle.  This helps improve validity for scouts in particular because they aren't compared to TD/med/heavies.

 

Sorry, I don't think that helps, WN8 still does not reward the essential scout activity. A player will have a better WN8 if he plays his light like a medium.

 

In the most extreme cases, I had 5674 assisted damage and zero direct damage, and 6263 assisted/232 direct. I think I contributed to the win, but I was barely counted by WN8.



Benefit87 #48 Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:28 AM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 21 May 2017 - 05:04 AM, said:

 

Yolo scouting is the same as camping? The same as AFKing?

Bad players are bad. Confirmed



xXlAmbitionzlXx #49 Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:30 AM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 21 May 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

 

That, and WN8 does not reflect their main activity.

 

That's why WN8 is useless as a comparison value.

 

Right. Because doing 800 damage in a light is hard. 

Sure Spotting is the main trait of a light tank, But Ive played lights and the main reason why I dont play them is, You can light up enemies and have a team thats retarded enough not to shoot them. Hence why imo meds in their current form make light tanks redundant. Then again even the mechanics make lights redundant on console considering double bushing isnt a thing. 

Benefit87 #50 Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:33 AM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 21 May 2017 - 05:13 AM, said:

 

Sorry, I don't think that helps, WN8 still does not reward the essential scout activity. A player will have a better WN8 if he plays his light like a medium.

 

In the most extreme cases, I had 5674 assisted damage and zero direct damage, and 6263 assisted/232 direct. I think I contributed to the win, but I was barely counted by WN8.

How long till you realize that spotting just isn't important as dealing dmg? In wn8 is just used to differentiate between the campers and the tankers who actually go out and do something.



korbendallas-01 #51 Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:58 AM

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View PostxXlAmbitionzlXx, on 21 May 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Right. Because doing 800 damage in a light is hard.

 

What 800 damage?

 

You are still evading the point, which is that WN8 ignores the main purpose of scouts.

 

View PostxXlAmbitionzlXx, on 21 May 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Sure Spotting is the main trait of a light tank, But Ive played lights and the main reason why I dont play them is, You can light up enemies and have a team thats retarded enough not to shoot them.

 

You have played very little in light tanks, and mostly in low tiers. Of course many players don't know what they are doing in the low tiers.



xXlAmbitionzlXx #52 Posted 21 May 2017 - 11:28 AM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 21 May 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

 

What 800 damage?

 

You are still evading the point, which is that WN8 ignores the main purpose of scouts.

 

 

You have played very little in light tanks, and mostly in low tiers. Of course many players don't know what they are doing in the low tiers.

 

Im evading your point from what you keep leading it onto, Which is completely off topic from the original quote i posted on. 

Doing damage in light tanks is hard. 

I played the Chaffee when it was the only good light tank in the game and even then, players would not shoot the players I spotted even while keeping them lit the entire game. Having little games in lights doesnt mean that I am [edited]in lights, I decided to move on after realizing that Medium tanks can do everything a light tank can do but of course better. Hence why I think, Myself playing a light tank given our playerbase, Mechanics and map rotation itself is pointless to run

korbendallas-01 #53 Posted 21 May 2017 - 12:25 PM

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View PostxXlAmbitionzlXx, on 21 May 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

Im evading your point from what you keep leading it onto, Which is completely off topic from the original quote i posted on.

 

What? 800?

 

View PostxXlAmbitionzlXx, on 21 May 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

Doing damage in light tanks is hard.

 

That, and WN8 does not reflect their main activity.

 

That's why WN8 is useless as a comparison value.

 

View PostxXlAmbitionzlXx, on 21 May 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

Hence why I think, Myself playing a light tank given our playerbase, Mechanics and map rotation itself is pointless to run

 

Possibly, but have to understand that your experience is not an argument against the bias of WN8.



Shake Them OFF #54 Posted 21 May 2017 - 03:36 PM

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View Postlysteria85, on 19 May 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Win rates doesn't say nothing about player - you can have unicum status and die in every battle with win rate 48% or be "bad" player with WN8 under 700 and have win rate 56% - just becuase you were lucky and your team used to play good. Survival rate or kill/death rate also doesn't say nothing - you might be light tank player, have low kill rate/high death rate (because that's how light work - he spots and then die, doesn't kill a lot of reds) and be awesome or you might survive almost every game in some bush in some corner without even shooting and have low WN8 because of being useless for team but have awesome survival rate. That's just numbers

 

 

i have to disagree here, as my wn8 is going up and im getting better so is my winrate.

TheDepauperate #55 Posted 21 May 2017 - 07:11 PM

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View Postkorbendallas-01, on 21 May 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

 

Sorry, I don't think that helps, WN8 still does not reward the essential scout activity. A player will have a better WN8 if he plays his light like a medium.

 

In the most extreme cases, I had 5674 assisted damage and zero direct damage, and 6263 assisted/232 direct. I think I contributed to the win, but I was barely counted by WN8.

 

If you can do this:

Then you can do this:
 

 

Sure, you can have games that you do great spotting damage and no straight damage and you WN8 doesn't reflect your contribution for that particular game, but that is the exception and not the rule.  Over the long run, as you skill increases so does your w/r, spots, etc. and that will bring your WN8 up too.  Dealing damage in a light is harder than spotting, and because of the way our maps are created with corridor fighting etc. it's usually more important.  A light needs to scout fast in the early game to show enemy deployment, but after the initial spotting, on many maps, the brawling zones will be self/prox spotting, and you add nothing by being there.  Late game is most important because you can a) light up remaining TDs/campers b) be mobile enough to reset the cap or support whoever needs it most c) abuse your mobility/VR to finish off wounded tanks.  That part is key to winning and makes a clear link between damage in a light and W/R.



korbendallas-01 #56 Posted 22 May 2017 - 02:11 AM

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View PostTheDepauperate, on 21 May 2017 - 08:11 PM, said:

If you can do this:
Then you can do this:

 

Can you?

 

In any case, how can a system be considered useful that only measures one of the two games?







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