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Food a p2w mechanism


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Black RL #1 Posted 13 July 2017 - 11:36 AM

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Hi commanders! o7

 

Disclaimer: this is my opinion, I'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me, I have almost 300 tanks of which 25 or so are tier 10, most of them are equipped with everything including premium rounds, I have more than 140.000.000 silver so I have enough to use food.

 

We all point out the premium ammo (aka gold) or op premium tanks as a p2w mechanism, we discuss it all the time, but what about food? Some might not know but food provides an instant boost to ALL your crew skills of 10%, providing additional view range, shorter reload time, better accuracy among other things.

 

But isn't it the same as equipment? Ventilations? Coated optics? Yes and no, yes because it provides a boost just like equipment and no because you only pay the equipment once, and herein lies the problem.

 

Want to git gud? Want to be better than others? Just pay upfront 20k silver before every game.

 

But it's silver! People can grind it! But can they? Silver is needed for everything ingame, tanks, packages, equipment, premium rounds, camouflage, etc, so how are they supposed to grind this additional 20k per game? Should they use premium tanks? Are we saying they need to buy a premium tank to grind silver? A premium account? Both? And even if they do so they need to spend 20k per game, effectively hindering their silver income, even with a premium account using a premium tank.

 

Sure, a good player with a premium account using a premium tank will still make silver, probably lots of it, but this is the definition of p2w, the player is paying to get something in order to obtain an advantage against others.

 

And what about the ones that do not have premium tank? How are they supposed to get this silver? In tier 5? Tier 6? At that tiers if they pay 20k upfront I can assure you that the silver will not be flowing their way.....

 

And f2p players without a premium account? What about them? How can they be competitive? How is it fair for them? What are we saying here? You need a premium account and premium tanks? What does this statement implies? Are we saying you need to pay to be competitive in World of Tanks? Are we saying that World of Tanks is a p2w game?

 

But premium rounds are the same! Yes and no again, yes you have to pay extra silver for them, yes you have to grind the silver but a big fat no because you only pay if you use them, not the same with food, for food you pay 20k upfront, premium rounds are way different because if you are at your tier or using a gun with good pen you might end the game without firing one premium round.

 

GIT GUD SCRUB! Yeah, because all of the people playing world of tanks can always end up in the first 5, we all share the same skills, age, interests, time, motivation among other things. And if the player is a scrub, new to the game or not, playing against better players that also use food really helps a lot.

 

Food alongside with premium rounds, is one of the worst things affecting this game, it provides an unfair advantage to the ones using it and destroys game balance.

 

"Hey newcomer! Welcome! In addition to all the [edited], the red penetration indicator that doesn't mean jack, the invisible tanks and the +2 mm you need 20k silver payed upfront before every game if you want to be really competitive!"

 

Yeah, great message, and we wonder why the population is dropping.

 

Edit: typos.

 

Edit 1: if you want to see the effects of food, skills and equipment try out this site!


Edited by Black RL, 13 July 2017 - 02:56 PM.

Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


Gregularity #2 Posted 13 July 2017 - 11:47 AM

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No direct money no direct pay to win.

 

Pay to win would be paying real money directly to obtain an advantage others with no money have access to.

 

May not be easy but everyone has access to rations.


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yoyobambam #3 Posted 13 July 2017 - 11:54 AM

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Paying to play this game definitely gives advantages over a non paying player

It's not just as many say that it's pay to grind quicker. Yes that is one advantage.

But, if you are not grinding then paying to play as you suggest in your OP does allow a player to spam premium and run premium consumables much more readily than a non paying player which of course gives a paying player an advantage.

Shockwave IIC #4 Posted 13 July 2017 - 11:54 AM

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View PostGregularity, on 13 July 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

No direct money no direct pay to win.

 

Pay to win would be paying real money directly to obtain an advantage others with no money have access to.

 

May not be easy but everyone has access to rations.

Agreed

 

Also, I didnt see a correct explanation as to the actual effect of Food on crew performance.  


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Lethal Spectrum #5 Posted 13 July 2017 - 11:59 AM

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View PostGregularity, on 13 July 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

No direct money no direct pay to win.

 

Pay to win would be paying real money directly to obtain an advantage others with no money have access to.

 

May not be easy but everyone has access to rations.

 

did you read what OP said? How is a player supposed to afford equipment, good rounds and even new tanks when they're not spending monkey on the game for premium tanks and premium time, its impossible to do

Edited by Lethal Spectrum, 13 July 2017 - 11:59 AM.


Doctor_Who_22 #6 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:01 PM

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Any player who spends money on this game will get a small advantage, but it's not significant enough to label this game as pay to win.


 


 

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alex0lok #7 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:02 PM

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30 games with food equals to a GLD (600k silver). If you are F2P and have no gold (so can't dismount), is GLD a P2W thing?

 

Everybody can take 3 consumables to battle, if you pick food, you gave up something others are using, be it a small med kit or auto fire extinguisher, not exactly an advantage right?



Black RL #8 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:06 PM

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View PostShockwave IIC, on 13 July 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

Also, I didnt see a correct explanation as to the actual effect of Food on crew performance.  

 

Just follow the link, it also affects perks.


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


Black RL #9 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:08 PM

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View Postalex0lok, on 13 July 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

30 games with food equals to a GLD (600k silver). If you are F2P and have no gold (so can't dismount), is GLD a P2W thing?

 

Everybody can take 3 consumables to battle, if you pick food, you gave up something others are using, be it a small med kit or auto fire extinguisher, not exactly an advantage right?

 

Might be, but at least you only pay it once.

 

The classical solution for that is train all things related to fire and give up on the fire extinguisher.


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


mikkoj #10 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:19 PM

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View PostBlack RL, on 13 July 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

Hi commanders! o7

 

Disclaimer: this is my opinion, I'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me, I have almost 300 tanks of which 25 or so are tier 10, most of them are equipped with everything including premium rounds, I have more than 140.000.000 silver so I have enough to use food.

 

We all point out the premium ammo (aka gold) or op premium tanks as a p2w mechanism, we discuss it all the time, but what about food? Some might not know but food provides an instant boost to ALL your crew skills of 10%, providing additional view range, shorter reload time, better accuracy among other things.

 

But isn't it the same as equipment? Ventilations? Coated optics? Yes and no, yes because it provides a boost just like equipment and no because you only pay the equipment once, and herein lies the problem.

 

Want to git gud? Want to be better than others? Just pay upfront 20k silver before every game.

 

But it's silver! People can grind it! But can they? Silver is needed for everything ingame, tanks, packages, equipment, premium rounds, camouflage, etc, so how are they supposed to grind this additional 20k per game? Should they use premium tanks? Are we saying they need to buy a premium tank to grind silver? A premium account? Both? And even if they do so they need to spend 20k per game, effectively hindering their silver income, even with a premium account using a premium tank.

 

Sure, a good player with a premium account using a premium tank will still make silver, probably lots of it, but this is the definition of p2w, the player is paying to get something in order to obtain an advantage against others.

 

And what about the ones that do not have premium tank? How are they supposed to get this silver? In tier 5? Tier 6? At that tiers if they pay 20k upfront I can assure you that the silver will not be flowing their way.....

 

And f2p players without a premium account? What about them? How can they be competitive? How is it fair for them? What are we saying here? You need a premium account and premium tanks? What does this statement implies? Are we saying you need to pay to be competitive in World of Tanks? Are we saying that World of Tanks is a p2w game?

 

But premium rounds are the same! Yes and no again, yes you have to pay extra silver for them, yes you have to grind the silver but a big fat no because you only pay if you use them, not the same with food, for food you pay 20k upfront, premium rounds are way different because if you are at your tier or using a gun with good pen you might end the game without firing one premium round.

 

GIT GUD SCRUB! Yeah, because all of the people playing world of tanks can always end up in the first 5, we all share the same skills, age, interests, time, motivation among other things. And if the player is a scrub, new to the game or not, playing against better players that also use food really helps a lot.

 

Food alongside with premium rounds, is one of the worst things affecting this game, it provides an unfair advantage to the ones using it and destroys game balance.

 

"Hey newcomer! Welcome! In addition to all the [edited], the red penetration indicator that doesn't mean jack, the invisible tanks and the +2 mm you need 20k silver payed upfront before every game if you want to be really competitive!"

 

Yeah, great message, and we wonder why the population is dropping.

 

Edit: typos.

 

Haven t ever used food in any of my tanks but i can agree with that at some level so +1

Edited by mikkoj, 13 July 2017 - 12:20 PM.


RFCAN76 #11 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:24 PM

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I wonder how may players are using FOOD and not buying equipment to improve game playing.  Why so many players have low silver reserves and using the Fuel or Oil boost to improve Tank speed and Turret rotation speed.

 

 


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Black RL #12 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:28 PM

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View PostRFCAN76, on 13 July 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

I wonder how may players are using FOOD and not buying equipment to improve game playing.  Why so many players have low silver reserves and using the Fuel or Oil boost to improve Tank speed and Turret rotation speed.

 

 

 

I don't know how many, but normally the ones with 2 MOE or 3, especially 3, use food to get there or to maintain performance (WN8, etc).


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


RadiantPup27709 #13 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:31 PM

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The only things premium that I use are my type 59 and premium ammo. I've never used a single premium equipment in my entire WoT career, nor did I feel the need to use them.


Black RL #14 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:36 PM

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View PostRadiantPup27709, on 13 July 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

The only things premium that I use are my type 59 and premium ammo. I've never used a single premium equipment in my entire WoT career, nor did I feel the need to use them.

 

Speaking for myself I only feel the need to use them when I'm after that M, or that 3 MOE.

 

Btw, currently I don't use food, but I know how important a flat 10% to all your tank is, after tons of games it really starts to make a difference, just like premium ammo.


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


RuefulCenturion #15 Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:46 PM

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That's what earnable premiums are for. 

 

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RAGNAR0K N ROLL #16 Posted 13 July 2017 - 01:37 PM

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View PostRuefulCenturion, on 13 July 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

That's what earnable premiums are for.

 

This

Even the freest of free players surely at this point as  at least one gift/premium tank to grind out silver with. I really fail to see how the game is p2w at all save a few glaring examples of premium tanks which obviously cost money and are equal or in some cases better than their tech tree counterparts. When every other boost/consumable in the game is purchaseable with silver; you cant argue only paying players have access to them. They obviously can usually stock up more with them but they are not exclusive items.



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Corporal Derpy #17 Posted 13 July 2017 - 01:52 PM

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I'll have to quite disagree with this.

Food is indeed pay to have better tank performance, but I would not say that it is directly pay to win and most certainly not on par with 'P2W' Premium Ammo and Premium Tanks. 

 

 

First off, it's not the same as Equipment, not just because of the fact you only pay for Equipment once but in the actual bonus gained.

Let's bust out a random tank, a Churchill Mk I fully upgraded. You mount a Rammer on that, the reload goes from 4.60s to 4.12s. You use Food on that then it goes from 4.60s to 4.40s. For food to have the most effect then you need the equipment and the skills to combine it with in the first place and even that wont give a major difference most of the time.

 

The advantages gained by it are completely worthless unless you are a player capable of using those advantages, it wont make a bad player good and it will barely effect their gameplay at all. Which is different than Premium Ammo/Tanks. As someone firing APCR can now pen tanks they might not before and while they'll still die faster than usual if they are awful at the game, they would still pen shots they otherwise wouldn't. Whereas with tanks, if you were to give them a KV-220-2 then unless they are that one muppet firing only HE out of it then the tank will give them a higher WR than normal due to it's strengths and the PMM. 

You give them Food on the other hand, their gun fires slightly faster and that's about it.

 

 

How are they supposed to grind the extra Silver for this per game? First off, they could do so by bettering their game without the need for a slight gain in stats because of a consumable, but I understand that doing better is challenging for some because they don't want to do that.

Second, Proving Grounds has now become a viable source of income because of the easy to accomplish Silver Ops in it. With players reaching close to 300k in it.

 

'But they are using VIII Premiums which new players wont readily have'. Except by now we've had countless Freemium Grind Ops. I believe they have had 5 VIII's, a couple VII's and then a whole bunch of III-VI's here and there. If you made this complaint years ago it could work but at this point it doesn't because most 'new players' by now will have had ample chance to get VIII Premiums for free and in the case of the Fatherland, they didn't even need to be good to get it, they just needed luck.

You say that even with a Premium Account and using a Premium Tank it would hinder their Silver income but it would barely do so, it is not uncommon to frequently gain more than 100k in VIII Premiums with Premium Time, so a small cut of -20k will barely affect it at all. They'd only be hindering their Silver income despite all of the Silver bonuses if they exclusively fired Gold as well, and missed so many shots.

 

How can players be competitive? By being fully upgraded, by learning their tanks strengths and weaknesses. I didn't use Food for a good while until maybe 400 games after I got my first Premium just to see what it was like, by not using it that whole time it did not make me a useless team mate, I did not need to have it to be competitive because you do not need to be using it to do so.

Like before, there's a huge difference between Equipment and a Consumable that gives a slight buff to everything. A player who uses no Equipment is at a significant disadvantage but a player who doesn't use Food isn't at much of a disadvantage at all, because not everyone is running them.

It will make your stats in the tank slightly better and as a result of this has been known to be quite helpful in pushing the final % on a 3 Mark grind because of needing to do X amount of Damage/Assist to increase it and it can help with that. But there is no point where I would say a single player has went from 47% WR to 50% WR or higher because he began using Food.

 

Saying that Premium Ammo is different because on a good game you might not use it is like saying the KV-220-2 having a Tier VII hull at Tier V is balanced because there are times when you don't even use the Armour because the enemy dies before they even get to fire. That seems like a stupid argument to me, you're saying something is fine because somebody MIGHT not use it.

 

 

I do not know why you think it is one of the worst things affecting this game, because it would be almost completely impossible to know whether or not anyone except for you is using it. The only way you would be able to tell is if you and someone in the exact same tank with the exact same gun, exact same Equipment and exact same Crew Skills/Perks showed up in a one on one engagement, and both of you fired at the exact same time.

Yeah that's not something that happens. Because of time spent aiming, if one even bothers to aim at all and just snaps the shot, any module damage incurred during or before the engagement, if one has AP loaded and the other has APCR loaded making one more prone to trying to aim for a weakspot than the other. You'd have to know for certain that the enemy is reloading at the exact same time as you reload to know that he's using Food.

 

'But it also buffs other stats'. All of which would be barely noticeable for most who use it, and almost completely unnoticeable as someone facing a player with Food.

Unless you tested it out one battle with it on and one battle with it off with the same everything, which would require Training Rooms then you'd not know how big of a difference it has on your view range or your tank's camouflage. Unless you got side by side video clip of it on the same surface then you wouldn't know if your tank now turned faster because of it. 

You could almost notice the difference with the accuracy, except for RNG. It does not make your KV-2 now the same accuracy as the Waffle, it just means you might have a better chance at hitting a fully aimed shot than before. 

 

I have played what, 17k games of WoT. In none of these games have I lost because I chose not to have Food equipped on the tank or because the enemy had it and I didn't. Not possessing something such as a Repair or Medkit has a much larger effect than not using Food.

 

Tl;dr Food isn't P2W because it doesn't offer as big an advantage as OP believes it does. 


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Black RL #18 Posted 13 July 2017 - 02:39 PM

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View PostCorporal Derpy, on 13 July 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Saying that Premium Ammo is different because on a good game you might not use it is like saying the KV-220-2 having a Tier VII hull at Tier V is balanced because there are times when you don't even use the Armour because the enemy dies before they even get to fire. That seems like a stupid argument to me, you're saying something is fine because somebody MIGHT not use it.

 

Tl;dr Food isn't P2W because it doesn't offer as big an advantage as OP believes it does. 

 

Good post, I can see we have different views but well explained, I just want to clarify two things:

 

It's different because I can manage what I spend during the game, many times I don't use any, with food I pay 20k upfront. And I don't think it's fine, it's also a p2w mechanism, what is fine is the way I spent silver with it.

 

The advantage is more noticeable and bigger at high levels of play, if you're playing against same level of skill opponents food might be what gives you the edge, for example let's see the Bat Chat (tanks.gg site):

 

Using vents + bia

 

2,457.66 DPM

36.70 reload

6.30 rof

2.48 aim time

0.35 dispersion

45.78 tank traverse

417.14 view range

 

Using vents + bia + food

 

2,538.79 DPM (+ 81.13)

35.18 reload (- 1.52)

6.51 rof (+ 0.21)

2.37 aim time (- 0.11)

0.33 dispersion (- 0.02)

47.76 tank traverse (- 1.98)

434.29 view range (+ 17.15)

 

This is more than some patches do and way more than values that the community throws huge fits over (like 10+ mts to view range).


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


alex0lok #19 Posted 13 July 2017 - 02:44 PM

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View PostBlack RL, on 13 July 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

 

Might be, but at least you only pay it once.

 

The classical solution for that is train all things related to fire and give up on the fire extinguisher.

You will still lose a significant portion of health even if you have both Firefighting (active skill) and Preventative Maintenance (passive perk) when compared to a fire extinguisher, likely with your ammo rack damaged as well.

 

The only premium tanks I bought were the T-34-88, Knight and Fury, not exactly your money maker...all other premium tanks of mine were earned. I run a premium account but I wasn't struggling for silver before it.

 

For marks, I didn't use food to three mark my Tiger I, VK36.01H and JgPz IV due to their high chance of fire and engine placement. Food will definitely helps, but players who have enough skills to three mark a tank will three mark a tank anyway, Food just shorten the process.

 

 



Black RL #20 Posted 13 July 2017 - 02:51 PM

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View Postalex0lok, on 13 July 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

You will still lose a significant portion of health even if you have both Firefighting (active skill) and Preventative Maintenance (passive perk) when compared to a fire extinguisher, likely with your ammo rack damaged as well.

 

For marks, I didn't use food to three mark my Tiger I, VK36.01H and JgPz IV due to their high chance of fire and engine placement. Food will definitely helps, but players who have enough skills to three mark a tank will three mark a tank anyway, Food just shorten the process.

 

 

 

Right, but you trade the times you burn (1 per session of play? 2?) for having an edge during all games.

 

I have a couple of 3 marked tanks and a ton of 2 marked ones and never used food (just for testing), exactly, food helps! And that's the problem! Even if you are a noob, you will become a better noob.

 

Btw, if you are curious about the effects of food try out this site and see for yourself!


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg





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