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New player experience vs veteran player


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Black RL #1 Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:17 AM

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Hi commanders! o7

 

Disclaimer: I use all things that I'm gonna talk about except food, so yeah, I guess I'm part of the problem, sorry newcomer when you finally reach this forum. Tanks.gg is the site used to show the examples.

 

In the light of all the discussion about population drops, a very real thing that is happening at an alarming rate (just like climate change), I wanted to show my fellow commanders what some newcomers face when they play World of Tanks.

 

I want to keep this simple, so let's choose a tier, let's say tier 5 because I think it's universal accepted as the tier that starts to incorporate all World of Tanks cool mechanics. Regarding lines let's choose 2 popular ones, maybe the T110E5 and the IS-7, so at tier 5 the new player is using the T1 Heavy and the KV-1 respectively.

 

In order to keep things simple let's pretend the newcomer already has the crew at 100% and has the last package, now let's pretend he faces a veteran in battle playing at the same tier (maybe grinding a M or marks, maybe seal clubbing, maybe just grinding xp, that's not the point), this is what he has to face:

 

T1 Heavy (final stage)

 

1,998.81 dpm

3.45 reload

2.21 aim time

330 view range

 

T1 Heavy used by veteran player with coated optics + vents + rammer + food + bia (I choose coated optics, but can be other equipment, just to make an example)

 

2,459.17 dpm (+ 460.36)

2.81 reload (- 0.64)

2.02 aim time (- 0.19)

391.29 view range (+ 61.29)

 

KV-1 (final stage)

 

2,002.29 dpm

4.79 reload

2.78 aim time

310 view range

 

KV-1 used by veteran player with coated optics + vents + rammer + food + bia (I choose coated optics, but can be other equipment, just to make an example)

 

2,463.44 dpm (+ 461.15)

3.90 reload (- 0.89)

2.55 aim time (- 0.23)

367.57 view range (+ 57.57)

 

As a bonus, here is what he faces when he gets + 2 mm, Tiger I used by veteran player with all the above stuff

 

2,757.59 dpm

5.22 reload

2.37 aim time

450.57 view range

 

And I'm not even considering sixth sense and experience, so, did the new player get outplayed just by skill? Can we even consider this tanks the same? How do you think the new player feels? Is this fair? What all of you think?

 

Note that there are way more veterans now than when the game started (thanks captain obvious!).

 

Just some food for thought fellow commanders.


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game. About RNG: RNG affects the outcome of games, here's why.

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


sumplkrum #2 Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:16 PM

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Yes. A veteran player benefits, having accumulated 'stuff'.
Equipment, crew skills, consumables, premium tanks (even ones given for free), silver for gold rounds ... and plenty of additional experience.


The game requires tons of investment to do well ... which is why it's frustrating that the learning curve for new players is so steep.

A new player can certainly grind equipment, but general observation says that's usually a secondary concern for players tier V and below.
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Black RL #3 Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:19 PM

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View Postsumplkrum, on 14 July 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

Yes. A veteran player benefits, having accumulated 'stuff'.
Equipment, crew skills, consumables, premium tanks (even ones given for free), silver for gold rounds ... and plenty of additional experience.


The game requires tons of investment to do well ... which is why it's frustrating that the learning curve for new players is so steep.

A new player can certainly grind equipment, but general observation says that's usually a secondary concern for players tier V and below.

 

And as the population drops the ratio between newcomers vs veterans gets worst.


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game. About RNG: RNG affects the outcome of games, here's why.

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


Kensaisama #4 Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:24 PM

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This will never change, in any PvP game you play you will face veteran players with more experience and better equipment than yourself, it is how we learn and get better, it is how we figure out what equipment we need to compete, it is how we adapt and think outside the box to beat the more experienced players.  Well some of us anyway, there are a lot of players in this day and age sadly that won't progress, they complain and whine and want things changed to accommodate their inferior skills and lack of intelligence.  They want their participation trophy.  I know that sounds harsh but it is the truth, at least from my perspective anyway.

 

I know what your saying but this will never change it is a fact of any PvP game.  You either stick with it and get better yourself to become a veteran player, or you move on to hellokittyonline.



Black RL #5 Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:36 PM

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View PostKensaisama, on 14 July 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

This will never change, in any PvP game you play you will face veteran players with more experience and better equipment than yourself, it is how we learn and get better, it is how we figure out what equipment we need to compete, it is how we adapt and think outside the box to beat the more experienced players.  Well some of us anyway, there are a lot of players in this day and age sadly that won't progress, they complain and whine and want things changed to accommodate their inferior skills and lack of intelligence.  They want their participation trophy.  I know that sounds harsh but it is the truth, at least from my perspective anyway.

 

I know what your saying but this will never change it is a fact of any PvP game.  You either stick with it and get better yourself to become a veteran player, or you move on to hellokittyonline.

 

True, except for arena games like Gears of War, the only thing separating a new player from a veteran one is skill, both have access to everything.

 

But yeah, lots of pvp games with grinding have this problem.

 


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game. About RNG: RNG affects the outcome of games, here's why.

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


Zathustra #6 Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:46 PM

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  While I agree that it seems harsh for new players to fight veterans, every one of us started out as new players and had to learn and improve. I am a "new" player on the PS4 and just starting out on the PS4 to build up my lines. However I have over 22,000 battles on the xbox. I learned on the xbox what to use, how to build up my crews and equipment to use so while a "new" player on the PS4 I have the experience. I started out towards the end of beta testing on the xbox 360 and when it went online as a regular game I still was raw compared to players who had played on the PC. Is it rough? Yes it is. Must you put in time and effort to learn to play? Yes you do. Unfortunately too many of the new players do not want to put in the time or effort to learn the game. They would rather just shoot at their own tanks and sometimes troll for their fun rather than  learning how to play.

   Even as a veteran on the xbox I have problems with veteran players in most of my tanks because I am grinding all lines of all nationalities so I am tank rich, silver and xp poor, with less equipment than I need and have few crews with 1 or more skills. Yes, I feel for the new players but let them learn and put in the time and effort to play this game. Just my two cents worth as both a new and veteran player.



westmech #7 Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:21 PM

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I think every new player should read this to understand that veteran players have a gross advantage over them at every tier. Perhaps this will ease their frustration to why they are getting nuked some of the time. Multi perked crews and premium ammo load outs stomping on stock tanks with fresh crews. The learning curve is dramatic for this game. Even if you had a mode where everyone had the same crew and same amount of premium ammo the veterans would still stomp the newbies because they know more about weak spots, angles, effective armor values, spotting mechanics, etc.....

 

This game rewards perseverance. I feel sorry for newbies, but we have all been there. 



Sgt Becket FEAR #8 Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:23 PM

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Need help with the Tiger I? PM me or see my guide: Becket's Tiger Guide | Short novel about Rosa: Rosa: Queen of Hearts

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Black RL #9 Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:25 PM

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View Postwestmech, on 14 July 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

I think every new player should read this to understand that veteran players have a gross advantage over them at every tier. Perhaps this will ease their frustration to why they are getting nuked some of the time. Multi perked crews and premium ammo load outs stomping on stock tanks with fresh crews. The learning curve is dramatic for this game. Even if you had a mode where everyone had the same crew and same amount of premium ammo the veterans would still stomp the newbies because they know more about weak spots, angles, effective armor values, spotting mechanics, etc.....

 

This game rewards perseverance. I feel sorry for newbies, but we have all been there. 

 

Exactly, veterans know more + have better tanks.

 

But how do you attract new players in such a harsh environment? With the population drop the ratio is getting worst by the day......


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game. About RNG: RNG affects the outcome of games, here's why.

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


YourGrumpyDad99 #10 Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:29 PM

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Well, I'm a pensioner with slower reflexes and poorer hand/eye coordination than some of you teenage unicums. Played over 10k games ground tanks up to tier 10, watched all the videos  to learn the game, memorised maps, and built up a good number of reasonably skilled crews, play my tanks with the right equipment  , have competitive tanks in my garage etc etc. Yet I'm still at the stage where I'm just reaching consistant "average to good" stats in mid tiers (5/6)....... so only around half way there after TWO YEARS in game..... Youngsters will have overtaken me after only half or a third that number of games....  A lot of stuff posted  in these forums is done by very young, very skilled players who can't really grasp that they are in fact a tiny percentage of players, or why all the scrubs can't just "GIT GUD".......

 

In a nutshell, and using a Golfing analogy, not everyone is ever going to be Tiger Woods, no matter how long or hard they try to improve. Most of us are going to remain a 16 handicap club player however much we want to be a scratch  playing champion.....   


I may be a Grumpy Scrub, but I am getting better! 

Black RL #11 Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:40 PM

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View PostYourGrumpyDad99, on 14 July 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Well, I'm a pensioner with slower reflexes and poorer hand/eye coordination than some of you teenage unicums. Played over 10k games ground tanks up to tier 10, watched all the videos  to learn the game, memorised maps, and built up a good number of reasonably skilled crews, play my tanks with the right equipment  , have competitive tanks in my garage etc etc. Yet I'm still at the stage where I'm just reaching consistant "average to good" stats in mid tiers (5/6)....... so only around half way there after TWO YEARS in game..... Youngsters will have overtaken me after only half or a third that number of games....  A lot of stuff posted  in these forums is done by very young, very skilled players who can't really grasp that they are in fact a tiny percentage of players, or why all the scrubs can't just "GIT GUD".......

 

In a nutshell, and using a Golfing analogy, not everyone is ever going to be Tiger Woods, no matter how long or hard they try to improve. Most of us are going to remain a 16 handicap club player however much we want to be a scratch  playing champion.....   

 

Good testimony, btw I'm far from being a teenager.

 

Anyway, new players can also have the same or worst handicaps you have, you still have an edge over them because you are a veteran.


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game. About RNG: RNG affects the outcome of games, here's why.

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


westmech #12 Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:51 PM

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View PostBlack RL, on 14 July 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

 

Exactly, veterans know more + have better tanks.

 

But how do you attract new players in such a harsh environment? With the population drop the ratio is getting worst by the day......

 

The improvements to the Proving Grounds was a good start. 

 

Veterans just need to play tier 5 and above. In this case I find its more up to the players to make the changes than for WG to implement something 



killer etzi0 #13 Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:53 PM

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Ok, two things, population-server count, it's as high as I've seen in some time, even early am morning time connecting to EU server has been good. 

Second, I think we are giving to much credit to the new player having any clue that some things are as bad as they are, they would only know or hear about it if they started coming to the forums.


"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat."

 

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sumplkrum #14 Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:06 PM

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View Postkiller etzi0, on 14 July 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

 I think we are giving to much credit to the new player having any clue that some things are as bad as they are, they would only know or hear about it if they started coming to the forums.

 

Very true. I'm sure most players are just buzzing around in their little tank, shooting whatever they can.
I imagine a lot of them think of it more like an RPG, where - if you grind enough mobs, you get to 'level up' to the next tank.
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EamonnanChnoic #15 Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:09 PM

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View Postwestmech, on 14 July 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

Veterans just need to play tier 5 and above. In this case I find its more up to the players to make the changes than for WG to implement something 

 

Yeah but people paid real money for Tier III and IV premium tanks.

 

They should be allowed to drive them or they should be given something in exchange if they are barred from driving them.


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Zathustra #16 Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:14 PM

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View PostYourGrumpyDad99, on 14 July 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

Well, I'm a pensioner with slower reflexes and poorer hand/eye coordination than some of you teenage unicums. Played over 10k games ground tanks up to tier 10, watched all the videos  to learn the game, memorised maps, and built up a good number of reasonably skilled crews, play my tanks with the right equipment  , have competitive tanks in my garage etc etc. Yet I'm still at the stage where I'm just reaching consistant "average to good" stats in mid tiers (5/6)....... so only around half way there after TWO YEARS in game..... Youngsters will have overtaken me after only half or a third that number of games....  A lot of stuff posted  in these forums is done by very young, very skilled players who can't really grasp that they are in fact a tiny percentage of players, or why all the scrubs can't just "GIT GUD".......

 

In a nutshell, and using a Golfing analogy, not everyone is ever going to be Tiger Woods, no matter how long or hard they try to improve. Most of us are going to remain a 16 handicap club player however much we want to be a scratch  playing champion.....   

 

​I am in the same boat as you. Retired, slow reflexes and arthritis in my hands. I will never be great but it is fine for me to be average in this game.

Cobravert #17 Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:19 PM

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You forgot to mention the veteran player also knows the way to play the tank they're in for the situation, has a fairly well trained crew, knows where to hit the critical spots on the other guy's tank, knows when and where to move, and not to mention... is spamming red shells.



Black RL #18 Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:21 PM

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View Postwestmech, on 14 July 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

 

The improvements to the Proving Grounds was a good start. 

 

Veterans just need to play tier 5 and above. In this case I find its more up to the players to make the changes than for WG to implement something 

 

At least for pve lovers!

 

I kinda try to do that, when a new line pops up I normally start at tier 5, but there are other problems like the below commander points out (last one).

 

View Postkiller etzi0, on 14 July 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

Ok, two things, population-server count, it's as high as I've seen in some time, even early am morning time connecting to EU server has been good. 

Second, I think we are giving to much credit to the new player having any clue that some things are as bad as they are, they would only know or hear about it if they started coming to the forums.

 

Hope you are right, but don't forget we are in a holiday season, they might not know about the bad things but they sure feel that it's hard to do something, to progress.

 

View Postsumplkrum, on 14 July 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

 

Very true. I'm sure most players are just buzzing around in their little tank, shooting whatever they can.
I imagine a lot of them think of it more like an RPG, where - if you grind enough mobs, you get to 'level up' to the next tank.

 

Hope you both are right, just don't forget that when we all started it was a very different environment (except for the ones coming from pc, etc).

 

View PostEamonnanChnoic, on 14 July 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

 

Yeah but people paid real money for Tier III and IV premium tanks.

 

They should be allowed to drive them or they should be given something in exchange if they are barred from driving them.

 

That's a problem yes, and I'm not sure newcomers alone can fill the games.

 

Maybe don't let use bonuses at lower tiers (equipment and stuff)? I dunno.....


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game. About RNG: RNG affects the outcome of games, here's why.

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


Black RL #19 Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:23 PM

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View PostCobravert, on 14 July 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

You forgot to mention the veteran player also knows the way to play the tank they're in for the situation, has a fairly well trained crew, knows where to hit the critical spots on the other guy's tank, knows when and where to move, and not to mention... is spamming red shells.

 

True! That's why I said:

 

"And I'm not even considering sixth sense and experience"

 

Btw, I only accounted for bia, you can continue to improve your tank stats with other crew skills.


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game. About RNG: RNG affects the outcome of games, here's why.

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


InboundBomb #20 Posted 14 July 2017 - 02:24 PM

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I am currently helping a new player that struggles with the basics. If he gets hit by arty he asks why am I getting shot in the rear when no one is there. Hard to make him understand what is going on due to lack of knowledge of the game. He has made it to a tier 7 and that's making it worse.:(




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