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Are overpowered premium tanks p2w?


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Black RL #1 Posted 15 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

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Hi commanders! o7

 

I recently created two threads that sparked interesting debate, Food a p2w mechanism and New player experience vs veteran player, I had the opportunity to read ideas similar to mine and different ones, I also was presented with some great arguments, at least they made me think, and that's a good thing. Obviously, some of you also create great threads with great content, that leads me to this new one, so let's start with the disclaimer!

 

Disclaimer: I have the Tiger 131 (is there a better start for this disclaimer?), yes it [edited]in melts tanks, yes I don't mind it to be nerfed as long as I get a full refund.

 

And..... let's end this, this guy is dumb duh! If you have to pay for it then it's p2w, case closed, that simple.

 

But is it?

 

While discussing the food problem, many have said that no tomato turns into a carrot by using food, many extended this reasoning towards other equipments and supplies, same group finalized by saying that skilled players don't need the boosts to do good. In the end, what they were saying is that a better tool doesn't influence the winning if it's used by a tomato, only skilled players know how to take advantage of better tools. Some of this enthusiastic people go the extra mile and say that the best players don't even need premium ammo to do good, they solely rely on their skill, knowing weak spots etc.

 

So, and I'm not saying I agree with this, I'm just adding food for tough, can we apply the same logic to op premium tanks? Only the skilled players can take advantage of this better tools? because in the end that's what they are, better tools to do the job, the winning.

 

No? We can't? I'M DUMB? I'M A BADDY? I'M A LOOSER? I HAVE TO GIT GUD? Wait, wait.... I get it, I get it, no need to be harsh!

 

So, if we can't use the same logic, are we saying that better tools, as in a better tank, an op premium tank (or other for that matter), helps winning? Because, you know, we can't have both logic running at the same time, it's either:

 

RED PILL - better tools help everybody win

BLUE PILL - better tools only help very skilled players win

 

Choose carefully Neo.....

 

 

If we choose RED, then op premium tanks are a p2w problem, specially because they need to be paid with real money (no [edited]Sherlock!), at least some of them (they give tanks from time to time, might happen to be an op one - yeah, you're really clever! Damn!). But choosing RED also proves that better tools help people win, not just skill, but skill + better tools (maybe also platoons, etc, but this is not the point), and if better tools help winning, things very expensive, hardly obtained by f2p accounts such as premium rounds and food also help to win.

 

If we choose BLUE, well [edited]..... then op premium tanks aren't helping skilled players win, because if "BLUE - better tools only help very skilled players win" (damn I'm smart, did you see this copy/paste????), then only the skilled players are winning with them, and in accordance with the logic that skilled players don't need better tools to win, they would be winning anyways, effectively resulting in op premium tanks not being a problem.

 

So Neo, what pill do you choose?


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


Tempest fox3 #2 Posted 15 July 2017 - 11:37 AM

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If you have to buy something for real money and it gives you any kind of advantage over players who didn't buy said thing for real money it's pay to win. There are different levels of pay to win but it still sits somewhere on the pay to win scale. 

 

Overpowered premium tanks are a prime example of this. But there's also those crew skills that you could only get when you bought a certain premium tank. An advantage is still an advantage. That said bad players are still going to be bad whatever they're in or whatever advantages they try to use. They'll do slightly better than a bad player that doesn't use those tools but they're still at the end of the day going to suck. 

 

I don't personally see premium ammo/consumables as a problem as you can buy them for silver. I've never paid gold for them and I never will. I rarely make a loss silver wise even when using premium ammo/consumables. I can see how they can create a gap between those who use them and those that don't but as far as I see it everyone has equal access to them. Choosing not to use them is your own problem. 

 

Obviously, new players do not have equal access to the things that people who've been playing for 3+ years have. Their crews won't be skilled, they won't have amassed silver reserves to use to fully pimp out all of their tanks, they won't have been able to get the free giveaway premiums that they weren't there for. That can, of course, create a gap between new players and veteran players regardless of individual skill. But that is par for the course in a game like this. There's always progression and there's always someone who's spent longer grinding that you and has access to better stuff as a result. I wouldn't call that pay to win as it has nothing to do with players spending money per say. But it does cause an imbalance of sorts. 


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Black RL #3 Posted 15 July 2017 - 11:45 AM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 15 July 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

If you have to buy something for real money and it gives you any kind of advantage over players who didn't buy said thing for real money it's pay to win. There are different levels of pay to win but it still sits somewhere on the pay to win scale. 

 

Overpowered premium tanks are a prime example of this. But there's also those crew skills that you could only get when you bought a certain premium tank. An advantage is still an advantage. That said bad players are still going to be bad whatever they're in or whatever advantages they try to use. They'll do slightly better than a bad player that doesn't use those tools but they're still at the end of the day going to suck. 

 

I don't personally see premium ammo/consumables as a problem as you can buy them for silver. I've never paid gold for them and I never will. I rarely make a loss silver wise even when using premium ammo/consumables. I can see how they can create a gap between those who use them and those that don't but as far as I see it everyone has equal access to them. Choosing not to use them is your own problem. 

 

You can buy them with silver, you can buy them and get an advantage, I'm glad we agree.

 

The elephant in the room is how can f2p players get access to that silver? How can they grind, buy all the stuff plus premium ammo and supplies at the current prices? And what about a new player that is also f2p? Anyway, that's not the discussion I want to have, again.

 

Better tools give advantage to people, be them bought with silver or gold, that's the point I'm trying to convey.


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


JAG THE GEMINI #4 Posted 15 July 2017 - 12:57 PM

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The tiger 131 is REALLY OP... Hammer is debatable, like the Mutant

 

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Black RL #5 Posted 15 July 2017 - 01:06 PM

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View PostJAG THE GEMINI, on 15 July 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

The tiger 131 is REALLY OP... Hammer is debatable, like the Mutant

 

I do good with all Tigers including the P, so I might have a biased opinion on them, I consider them all above average tanks to say the least.

Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


redshadowrider #6 Posted 15 July 2017 - 01:20 PM

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At the very least it can be said that WOT is becoming "pay to do better."  Once you open up that door, it is not such a stretch to say it is becoming, or already is "pay to win."  If any feature or tank, or skill, or perk can be bought with silver, then that makes it available to all.  If the item is limited to Gold only, then it is truly pay to win.  It is also important to note that winning does not have to include just winning a match.  It can also be higher silver return rate, and preferred match making.  Neither are available to all unless Gold has been spent to get the tank that offers it.  Of course this is just my opinion, but I bet there are many others that share this view.
I'm just saying.....

RuefulCenturion #7 Posted 15 July 2017 - 01:35 PM

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Depends on the tank and motivation for buying it? I think we can all agree that there are premiums that suck and are a complete waste of time and money. Then we got premiums like the Panther 8.8. and STA-2 that have really good penetration yet receive preferential matchmaking. If you're just an average player buying a tank to earn silver to buy the next tank and equipment, and don't know how good it is or how to play it effectively, is that pay to win? 

 

When I won the T-34-88, I had no idea how good of a tank it was. I feel if I had to re-buy it, knowing what I know now, I would be a filthy stet pedder. I kind of feel the same if I were to buy certain other premium tanks now. 


Edited by RuefulCenturion, 15 July 2017 - 01:43 PM.

 

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Tempest fox3 #8 Posted 15 July 2017 - 01:45 PM

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View PostRuefulCenturion, on 15 July 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

Depends on the tank and motivation for buying it? I think we can all agree that there are premiums that suck and are a complete waste of time and money. Then we got premiums like the Panther 8.8. and STA-2 that have really good penetration yet receive preferential matchmaking. If you're just an average player buying a tank to earn silver to buy the next tank and equipment, and don't know how good it is or how to play it effectively, is that pay to win? 

 

By definition any advantage gained through real money purchases is pay to win. We shouldn't be asking "if" it is pay to win but instead to what degree is it pay to win and how much pay to win is too much.

 

We have quite a few premium tanks that sit quite high on the OP scale, Tiger 131, E25, nameless, edelweiss, STA-2, T23E3 to name a few. Some of them have high skill requirements some have low skill requirements but they all sit somewhere on the pay2win scale.


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Black RL #9 Posted 15 July 2017 - 06:53 PM

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Hurry up Neo! You think I can hold my arms like this forever?

 

Touchy subject I see..... Anyways! Must be the coffee I dunno, here is my latest thread on the subject!

 

Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

 


Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


Doctor_Who_22 #10 Posted 15 July 2017 - 07:12 PM

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There's always going to be a few over-performing tanks, whether it's a premium tank (tiger 131) or a TT tank (Waffle)... and there's nothing wrong with it. We don't want every tank to be the same or perfectly balanced.

Certain players will excel with certain tanks just based on their play style. Even some of the most OP tanks still get played like garbage by a LOT of players.

There are very few things in this game that are blatantly OP, and that's mainly because when you have 15 vs 15 there's simply too many random variables to guarantee success with any particular tank.

Platoons will give better success than almost any premium tank.... and 5-man platoons can almost be game-breaking in some situations.

 


 

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WeezyCheez03 #11 Posted 15 July 2017 - 07:14 PM

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Tiger 131 is paying for a tier 8 gun, when regular tiger gun is a tier 7.

RagingxMarmoset #12 Posted 15 July 2017 - 07:25 PM

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View PostWeezyCheez03, on 15 July 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

Tiger 131 is paying for a tier 8 gun, when regular tiger gun is a tier 7.

The fully upgraded Tiger I uses the 8.8cm L/71



Black RL #13 Posted 15 July 2017 - 07:26 PM

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View PostDoctor_Who_22, on 15 July 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

Platoons will give better success than almost any premium tank.... and 5-man platoons can almost be game-breaking in some situations.

 

Oh my, the infamous 5 man platoons, so true.

Gotta catch them all! ^^

 

My hateful 4: Food a p2w mechanism, New player experience vs veteran player, Are overpowered premium tanks p2w? and Why World of Tanks can't shake off being perceived as a p2w game

 

See what happens to your tank in real time when you use equipment, supplies or crew skills in tanks.gg


Turbo_RB20 #14 Posted 15 July 2017 - 10:16 PM

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How many threads do you have about p2w? Holy crap man. Let it go already. Premium tanks aren't p2w because bad players will still do bad. I wreck 131's all the time with my non premium tier 5's and 6's. All I see 131 players do is spam full apcr, still get wrecked, do no damage and lose. When a prem tank makes all red players super uni and have positive win rates, then maybe. P2w means PAY TO WIN. You're missing the point on ALL of your threads. Do these in game mechanics increase WINrate? No? Then it's not pay to WIN. Just because you see a prdmium tank player with a lot of damage on the winning team, doesn't mean anything. Check their stats, bet they're a good player. You show us all consistent proof of a bad player doing really good in a premium tank, instead of opinions and speculation, and your point will have some validity to it. Where's this p2w proof? Where's your control test? You can't be comparing brand new players with fresh accounts with purple players with 8+ skilled crews that played for years and have that time invested. That's not pay to win. It's skill vs no skill. Let's set up a control test. We find 2 players with matching stats and battles, I'll pay them both to make new accounts, one will have access to all premium benefits, the other can only use what he earns. They both go up the exact same tank line so we have a control test. I'll fund it. At the end of, say a month? Which ever account has better stats, shows the proof. I'll set it in motion if you want to?

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DsG_AngryBullbog #15 Posted 15 July 2017 - 10:48 PM

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By definition yes. Yet majority of the playerbase struggle playing an E5, so you can imagine my concern is very low when i see these premium tanks like the 131.

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DustyHooves #16 Posted 15 July 2017 - 10:50 PM

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Would OP tanks be p2w or just pay to be average?
I believe that OP tanks are one of the things WG uses as a way to attract and retain mediocre players.
In all my battles, when I get beat, I usually check the stats of the player who beat me. And what I usually see is someone who has either purple stats or someone who found a particular tank they click in and have played it to death. Thousands of games.
I rarely get bested by noobs in OP premiums.
What I see that makes a particular player OP is crew skills, map knowledge and experience combined with good eye-hand coordination and reflexes. Not the tank they are driving.
As an example, I sometimes watch Just An Ace's videos and as I watch, what stands out are his super quick reflexes and map awareness. That guy sees a red, pops over a rise and zooms in and fires and scores a hit and disappears back behind his ridge all in the time it takes me to just register that there is an enemy there. I could never be anywhere close to as good as he is.
That's not an OP tank, that's an OP brain.
Let's have a test, shall we? Put me in a p2w 131 and him in a stock TT Tiger and let us 1 -vs- 1 each other. See if that OP 131 gives me the advantage. (hint, it won't. He'll still mop up the floor with me) So in my opinion, OP premiums are not p2w because they are not OP enough to overcome skill and experience.

Freddie Karno #17 Posted 15 July 2017 - 10:52 PM

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View PostRagingxMarmoset, on 15 July 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

The fully upgraded Tiger I uses the 8.8cm L/71

Correct. Would be interesting to see how many Tiger 1 drivers dropped down a package....



Warsteiner 1 #18 Posted 15 July 2017 - 11:07 PM

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Again, as in your other MYTH thread , you still have to be skilled at the game to be able to use the tank at its full potential. No yellow player in the game today is going to be able to buy a Premium tier 8 and magically become purple.

Your sense of "pay to win" is very very misguided .

 

But lets play hypothetical here , why should a paying customer who has supported the game for several years NOT get some sort of small in game boost as opposed to someone who dosnt sink a single penny into it ?



USSWISCONSIN94 #19 Posted 15 July 2017 - 11:12 PM

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View PostTurbo_RB20, on 15 July 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

How many threads do you have about p2w? Holy crap man. Let it go already. Premium tanks aren't p2w because bad players will still do bad. I wreck 131's all the time with my non premium tier 5's and 6's. All I see 131 players do is spam full apcr, still get wrecked, do no damage and lose. When a prem tank makes all red players super uni and have positive win rates, then maybe. P2w means PAY TO WIN. You're missing the point on ALL of your threads. Do these in game mechanics increase WINrate? No? Then it's not pay to WIN. Just because you see a prdmium tank player with a lot of damage on the winning team, doesn't mean anything. Check their stats, bet they're a good player. You show us all consistent proof of a bad player doing really good in a premium tank, instead of opinions and speculation, and your point will have some validity to it. Where's this p2w proof? Where's your control test? You can't be comparing brand new players with fresh accounts with purple players with 8+ skilled crews that played for years and have that time invested. That's not pay to win. It's skill vs no skill. Let's set up a control test. We find 2 players with matching stats and battles, I'll pay them both to make new accounts, one will have access to all premium benefits, the other can only use what he earns. They both go up the exact same tank line so we have a control test. I'll fund it. At the end of, say a month? Which ever account has better stats, shows the proof. I'll set it in motion if you want to?

You sound like a poster boy for WG. You don't get it do you?


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HolyFetusChrist #20 Posted 15 July 2017 - 11:22 PM

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View PostUSSWISCONSIN94, on 15 July 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:

You sound like a poster boy for WG. You don't get it do you?

 

 

I don't think he understands that an OP tank won't make a bad player super uni no matter how OP it is. Because if it's OP in hands of a potatoe then it's blatantly broken in the hands of a competent player. The standard for super uni will only get higher, not lower. 


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