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If Dunkirk failed?

Dunkirk

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WidowMaker1711 #61 Posted 22 March 2018 - 11:03 AM

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View PostNSW Mntd Rifles, on 22 March 2018 - 01:47 AM, said:

 

Are you sure you're not confusing the Bismarck with the Graf Spee?

 

No. The Germans maintained they scuttled the Bismarck prior to her being sunk. But nobody will ever know. I suspect she was lightly wounded and taking on water when she was finally sent to the briny deep. 


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Albapfalzd3 #62 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:35 PM

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View PostWidowMaker1711, on 22 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

 

No. The Germans maintained they scuttled the Bismarck prior to her being sunk. But nobody will ever know. I suspect she was lightly wounded and taking on water when she was finally sent to the briny deep. 

 

Actually when Robert Ballard visited the Bismark he noted how intact the hull was below the water line leading credence to the Germans claim that she was scuttled. There have been several expeditions since then as well and all their findings were the same. The condition of the hull leads to scuttling as the cause of sinking but they all also agree that she would have been sunk eventually. 

 

Roy



WidowMaker1711 #63 Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:38 PM

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View PostAlbapfalzd3, on 23 March 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

 

Actually when Robert Ballard visited the Bismark he noted how intact the hull was below the water line leading credence to the Germans claim that she was scuttled. There have been several expeditions since then as well and all their findings were the same. The condition of the hull leads to scuttling as the cause of sinking but they all also agree that she would have been sunk eventually. 

 

Roy

 

But her powertrain and rudders were damaged. The propellors were turned by bloody long propshafts. Only takes one to become misaligned and the seawater starts coming in like drunks at a free bar.


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Metalrodent #64 Posted 23 March 2018 - 06:01 PM

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View PostAlbapfalzd3, on 20 March 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

 

The RN didn't sink her either, she was scuttled. With that being said, she would have been sunk by the RN eventually if the KM hadn't beat them to it.

 

Roy

 

The whole 'But they scuttled her themselves' argument always kinda smacks of people just trying to defend German honour while trying to deny Royal Navy success (which sadly some people still like doing).

 

It's quite likely they did scuttle her themselves, the fight was lost and they could hardly let the pride of the Kriegsmarine get captured (of course the RN just wanted to sink it) - but that doesn't change the fact the ship was doomed. She was on fire and utterly without power, and another factor people forget is that HMS Ark Royal was still in the vicinity, with freshly loaded Swordfish ready in reserve. Even had she not sunk and a ship somehow arrived to attempted to tow her back they would have been harassed the whole way, and any port she laid up in decimated by a vengeful RAF/FAA (case in point, most of the Germany navy for the rest of the war anyway).

 

Scuttled or not, she was doomed.


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SUD123 #65 Posted 11 April 2018 - 03:43 AM

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Germany should never really had a chance from the beginning.  Only the utter incompetence of the Allies from '39 through late '41 gave the Germans any possibility of success.  And by Dec 5th, 1941 - 2 days before Pearl Harbour even happened - most of the General Staff/OKW knew they were going to lose.

 

In any case, if one wants to play 'what if' one should consider 'what if' France had simply marched 2 million men into Germany in late Sept '39 and occupied the western half of Germany instead of sitting behind the Maginot Line.  Given that 90% of all Germany forces, air and land, were in Poland or east Germany there was literally next to nothing to stop them from doing so.  And if you look at a map, it is farther to travel from Poland to western Germany than it is from the Maginot line to the Ruhr and the Rhine.  They could have simply walked in, bicycled in, jogged in, etc, etc essentially unopposed.

 

Indeed, if you look it up some relatively smart people advocated for France to do this exact thing....but instead they chose to sit on their asses which is what ultimately led to the 'phony war' between fall '39 and May '40.



PzG Kami #66 Posted 12 April 2018 - 09:23 AM

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View PostSadriel Fett, on 19 July 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

How's that for gratitude?

 

WoW you westerners sometimes become so arrogant it is so disgusting and rude :angry: 

First of all , you in the name of fighting for freedom undermined the sovereignty and invaded/occupied another nation. No matter if you give out the wealth of the world ,If someone doesn't want you to interfere in his/her affairs you should respect him otherwise you are wrong doer.

2nd where is proof for all so called built infrastructures???

3rd even if those ports are built they were not intended to help Iran but the intentions was something else ! Also besides the damages done during invasion , the very presence of foreign troops caused famine and poverty to the people even many lost their lives due to it.

 

So I really don't think we're owing you anything !!!


Edited by PzG Kami, 12 April 2018 - 09:24 AM.


WidowMaker1711 #67 Posted 12 April 2018 - 10:02 AM

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View PostPzG Kami, on 12 April 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

 

WoW you westerners sometimes become so arrogant it is so disgusting and rude :angry: 

First of all , you in the name of fighting for freedom undermined the sovereignty and invaded/occupied another nation. No matter if you give out the wealth of the world ,If someone doesn't want you to interfere in his/her affairs you should respect him otherwise you are wrong doer.

2nd where is proof for all so called built infrastructures???

3rd even if those ports are built they were not intended to help Iran but the intentions was something else ! Also besides the damages done during invasion , the very presence of foreign troops caused famine and poverty to the people even many lost their lives due to it.

 

So I really don't think we're owing you anything !!!

 

Im sorry but Im confused. There was a war on. NOBODY was getting enough food. The Germans were sinking it in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. Then it was having to be sent out across thousands of miles hostile ocean to reach the front lines. But its ok because your country had a "famine". Meanwhile everywhere under the Nazi Jackboot was being systematically starved. The Nazis also operated a Scorched Earth Policy. So whilst your famine due to difficulty of supply may have killed hundreds, Scorched Earth and Nazi Occupation killed hundreds of thousands.


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Sadriel Fett #68 Posted 12 April 2018 - 09:00 PM

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View PostPzG Kami, on 12 April 2018 - 05:23 AM, said:

 

WoW you westerners sometimes become so arrogant it is so disgusting and rude :angry: 

First of all , you in the name of fighting for freedom undermined the sovereignty and invaded/occupied another nation. No matter if you give out the wealth of the world ,If someone doesn't want you to interfere in his/her affairs you should respect him otherwise you are wrong doer.

2nd where is proof for all so called built infrastructures???

3rd even if those ports are built they were not intended to help Iran but the intentions was something else ! Also besides the damages done during invasion , the very presence of foreign troops caused famine and poverty to the people even many lost their lives due to it.

 

So I really don't think we're owing you anything !!!

 

I would say if you want proof of all those "so called" infrastructures, I'd say either read about the actual logistics involved of supplying Russia with equipment during WWII or you can just go there and see it all for yourself.  It's not like it's not there still being used.  And if you want to complain about being invaded, you can take it up with the Brits and the Russians.  They invaded the place well before the U.S. entered the war.  I wonder if the Shah at the time wasn't considered so buddy-buddy with the Germans, things would've turned out differently.  Although, to be fair, the Brits were pretty much straight dickheads toward Iran at the time.  The Iranians pretty much got the sh*t end of the stick in their dealing with the Brits in regards to the oil company they were supposed to be part of together.


 

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PzG Kami #69 Posted 13 April 2018 - 08:20 AM

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@WidowMaker1711

I'm confused as well ! Look like you think it is ok to occupy another nation that was neutral (and stated her neutrality many times) for your own needs ! Also I'm talking about food produced inside Iran not the lack of supplies being imported !

 

@Sadriel Fett

You are the one claiming there was many infrastructures built so the burden of providing proofs is upon you. I know for a fact that there were ports especially for oil exports purposes as well as Iran had Navy (albeit small one) so Iran had enough port facilities for her own needs. Also the railway that allies used extensively to transfer supplies to northern iran was already built by Reza Shah himself. Of course additional infrastructures being built during wars , as you did build port facilities and other infrastructures during invasion of France 1944 !

 

You are right that it was Brits who orchestrated and did the actual invasion alongside soviets , So if you are from US (I guess?) then my post wasn't towards you ,sorry



Snorelacks #70 Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:45 PM

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View PostSUD123, on 10 April 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

Germany should never really had a chance from the beginning.  Only the utter incompetence of the Allies from '39 through late '41 gave the Germans any possibility of success.  And by Dec 5th, 1941 - 2 days before Pearl Harbour even happened - most of the General Staff/OKW knew they were going to lose.

 

In any case, if one wants to play 'what if' one should consider 'what if' France had simply marched 2 million men into Germany in late Sept '39 and occupied the western half of Germany instead of sitting behind the Maginot Line.  Given that 90% of all Germany forces, air and land, were in Poland or east Germany there was literally next to nothing to stop them from doing so.  And if you look at a map, it is farther to travel from Poland to western Germany than it is from the Maginot line to the Ruhr and the Rhine.  They could have simply walked in, bicycled in, jogged in, etc, etc essentially unopposed.

 

Indeed, if you look it up some relatively smart people advocated for France to do this exact thing....but instead they chose to sit on their asses which is what ultimately led to the 'phony war' between fall '39 and May '40.

 

This was one of the reasons that Churchill called WWII the "Unnecessary War". The allies had many opportunities to enforce the Versailles Treaty (1st violation was conscripted soldiers in 1935), reoccupy the Rhineland, push back when Hitler mobilized the military in Aug 1938, Sudetenland, and multiple more chances.


 


MRXBOX n VAN BC #71 Posted 05 June 2018 - 09:58 AM

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We would never have gotten the speech! " WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER! " I always enjoyed the way Super Tramp blended his speach into the intro of " A Fool's Overture " , kinda shows how the Man was so Epic.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

https://www.youtube....h?v=TLbYL10c1zo     wait till 2:20 into the song. You will hear Big Ben Chime and then you hear the Mother of all Speeches! Enjoy , actually check out all of Super Tramps music.

https://www.youtube....?v=bYAAVx4Q6b0.                                                                                                                                     

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Edited by MRXBOX n VAN BC, 05 June 2018 - 10:38 AM.

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Ulteamatum #72 Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:37 PM

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Sorry for diverting the actual main stream but "See Lowe" would not certainly succeed in its second part where panzerdivisionen could not get enough air support. The 1940's Blitzkrieg machine would get suffered too, particularly when the campaign would open on a new problematic encountered latter by german Heer and Soviet Red Army : the great urban areas such as London who would have certainly given a huge advantage to the UK defensers, waiting an hypothetic us army expeditionnary corps. At this time, almost any Wehrmacht materials were adapted or anticiped for massive stone structures, a same scenario two years after on the Volga who will give the development of the 380mm SturmTiger rocket laucher.

 

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Edited by Ulteamatum, 13 June 2018 - 11:38 PM.

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