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Soviet, German, Japanese Flags/Emblems: "Politically Correct?"

soviet german politically correct historical flags iron cross swastika hammer and sickle rising sun

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SpiralTarantula #1 Posted 20 August 2017 - 05:18 AM

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Hello Commanders and WG Staff!

 

It's probably no surprise to many of you that the flag featured in the garage and background for the Germans flat out didn't exist. Obviously, Wargaming chose not to display the Swastika to avoid controversy but kept the historical flag for the Soviet Union. Both the Third Reich and the USSR were brutal empires that ended the lives of millions of people and nearly caused the collapse of modern society. So I ask, why is the Hammer and Sickle any more appropriate than the Swastika when both of these nations were equally as evil? If the Swastika is too controversial to be shown in-game, then the Hammer and Sickle should be removed as well right?

 

If the Hammer and Sickle is to remain in World of Tanks (and other titles developed by Wargaming) at least change the German flag to one that actually existed. Obviously the Swastika is out of the question so why not use the flag the Germans flew during World War I instead? Or the modern German flag? Players cannot even place the Iron Cross on their non German tanks from the "emblem" category of the customization tab.

https://en.wikipedia...of_German_flags

 

Why not use this flag?

 

Marine Jack (1871 - 1918)

Flag of North German Confederation (jack).svg

 

On a side note, Wargaming also decided to use the modern day flag for Japan instead of the Rising Sun flag used in World War II. Was this in an effort to avoid controversy as well? Like the Iron Cross, the Rising Sun is also not a customization option for players. According to many websites, the modern day Japanese military still uses a variation of the Rising Sun in their self-defense forces, navy, etc.

https://en.wikipedia..._Japanese_flags

 

Ensign of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense (1954 - present)

Naval Ensign of Japan.svg

 

What are your thoughts and opinions? Please let me know!

 

Thank you!

 

- Austin (SpiralTarantula)


Edited by SpiralTarantula, 20 August 2017 - 05:30 AM.


Thrillhelm #2 Posted 20 August 2017 - 11:09 AM

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The World War I flag of Germany would be historically inadequate and represented Germany from a different time period, especially one that only took first steps into tank warfare. It's like taking France's flag from Louis XIV. era, still would not fit in.

The current flag of Germany would be historically inadequate as well, since again it represents Germany from a different time era.

 

As with the iron cross, which is a symbol that has been used way before and after the Third Reich (notice the Bundeswehr tank Leopard 1, and also Leopard PTA, Indien-Panzer, Ru 251 and Sp. I C), it is with every basic insignia a tank comes with: it can be replaced but not be removed entirely, or slapped on a tank from a different nation.

 

We had discussions about using German flag that is been used in-game (the fictional one, basically the Reichskriegsflagge without the swastika but an iron cross) and it came to no result. The Dunkirk version of it with two arrows from a battlefield map was in the game and fine though.

 

The Soviet flag has been used until 1991 without any problems and is widely recognized as the flag of the Soviet Union, and I don't see the problem keeping it in the game.

 

 



Panthergraf #3 Posted 20 August 2017 - 12:58 PM

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Swastika and other Symbols of the 3rd Reich in games are banned by law in many countrys. Soviet isn't. That's all. There's nothing to discuss.

SpiralTarantula #4 Posted 20 August 2017 - 09:42 PM

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View PostPanthergraf, on 20 August 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

Swastika and other Symbols of the 3rd Reich in games are banned by law in many countrys. Soviet isn't. That's all. There's nothing to discuss.

 

I understand and am aware of the censorship laws in other countries.

 

Thrillhelm, you make some very good points in your post and yes I know that the Cold War Era German tanks sport the Iron Cross, the same one that I use as my profile picture here. In regards to the nation default insignia, I thought it would be cool if the default insignias were available for all nations so players could mock up a "captured" tank much like the in-game T-34-88, Panther M/10, Captured KV-1, etc if they wished to do so. This idea piqued my interest after reading about the release of the Polish premium tank Pudel on PC. I'd like to dress up my Panther like an American tank with the white stars and with the national crew voices now in-game, I can even "substitute" a German crew with an American crew!

 

Captured Tiger II

Image result for captured tanks ww2

 

Captured Sherman Firefly

Image result for captured tanks ww2

 

Captured Churchill Mark III

Image result for captured tanks ww2

 

Captured Pz.Kpfw III Ausf. J

Image result for captured tanks ww2


Edited by SpiralTarantula, 22 August 2017 - 10:44 AM.


IBROX 04 #5 Posted 20 August 2017 - 10:08 PM

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The German flag in game is the Kriegsmarine 1938–1945, without the Swastika. 

Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm

 

 

 


SpiralTarantula #6 Posted 21 August 2017 - 02:10 AM

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View PostIBROX 04, on 20 August 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

The German flag in game is the Kriegsmarine 1938–1945, without the Swastika. 

 

This is very true after a closer observation. I guess an "alternate history" version of the Kriegsmarine flag is the best that German tank fans are going to get. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a beautiful looking flag albeit not 100% accurate. But at the end of the day, World of Tanks is not a game emphasizing historical accuracy.

RagingxMarmoset #7 Posted 21 August 2017 - 08:10 AM

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You might want to have a closer look at that "Panther"

"Talent is a pursued interest. Anything that you're willing to practice, you can do." - Bob Ross

 


SpiralTarantula #8 Posted 21 August 2017 - 03:48 PM

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View PostRagingxMarmoset, on 21 August 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

You might want to have a closer look at that "Panther"

King Tiger sorry, I have no clue why I said Panther. Thank you for the correction!


Edited by SpiralTarantula, 22 August 2017 - 10:44 AM.


Panthergraf #9 Posted 22 August 2017 - 07:00 AM

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Or Cuckoo, the british captured Panther (that was kept in service for months before breaking down, wonder how they did that).

PLK180W #10 Posted 25 August 2017 - 03:57 PM

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View PostPanthergraf, on 22 August 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

Or Cuckoo, the british captured Panther (that was kept in service for months before breaking down, wonder how they did that).

 

Advanced level scavenging of parts from knocked out/ abandoned Panthers, and a little creative improvisation by the the mechanics. 
Through The Mud And Blood To The Green Fields Beyond

darrenv64 #11 Posted 25 August 2017 - 08:07 PM

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Sheds light on the effects of propaganda in our national media. If we were to limit flags based on sensitivities, (face it, the banning of Nazi symbolisms is just a diaper wipe for a very vocal minority) than why not the British flag (colonialism/imperialism), the French flag (ditto), the Chinese flag (killing of political dissidents, forced abortions, etc.,), U.S. flag (Native Americans, Japanese internment), Japanese flag (rape of Nanking, forced labor, medical experiments, etc.,), and most certainly the Soviet flag (Gulags, killing of political dissidents, with upwards of a hundred million human lives destroyed through collectivism)? Marketing, and the suspicious fact that the developers are Soviet (Russian) idealogues.



Totenkopf333 #12 Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:11 AM

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How does having a flag or symbol that is historiclay right when used on a Tank from same period be wrong? Tiger 1 my favorite tank ,Best and most played should if I wanted 2 be cable of having German flag or Swastika ,iron cross or whatever applied 2 it! That doesn't make me or Wot a promoter or believer of such! U can not change history 2 fit  modern morals !

Totenkopf333 #13 Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:12 AM

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How does having a flag or symbol that is historiclay right when used on a Tank from same period be wrong? Tiger 1 my favorite tank ,Best and most played should if I wanted 2 be cable of having German flag or Swastika ,iron cross or whatever 

Totenkopf333 #14 Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:12 AM

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How does having a flag or symbol that is historiclay right when used on a Tank from same period be wrong? Tiger 1 my favorite tank ,Best and most played should if I wanted 2 be cable of having German flag or Swastika ,iron cross or whatever 

Panthergraf #15 Posted 05 November 2017 - 11:39 AM

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Were were no flags painted on Tigers. Nor Iron Crosses or Swastikas. Most images of Tigers with paintings show Balkenkreuz, turret number, kill markings with barrel rings or barrel lines and sometimes a small Unit Insignia (which would be banned in WoT if Waffen-SS Insignia). Except turret numbers, WoT gives you all you need for your historical Tiger. 

 

The legal rights of showing Nazi Symbolism in Video games in some countries, esp.Germany  is a matter of law courts, not a matter of some forum Wehraboos. 


Edited by Panthergraf, 05 November 2017 - 11:40 AM.


StuftRock1 #16 Posted 09 November 2017 - 06:09 PM

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The swastika represents a people that committed genocide against a people of a certain religion, so the swastika is known as a very anti semitic symbol. Plus it along with all other Nazi references are outlawed in many countries.

Aelgyn #17 Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

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View PostPanthergraf, on 20 August 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

Swastika and other Symbols of the 3rd Reich in games are banned by law in many countrys. Soviet isn't. That's all. There's nothing to discuss.

 

This reminds me of a joke:

 

Q: Does ignorance lead to apathy?

A: I don't know and I don't care.

 

Back to the comment, of course there is plenty to discuss about anything that is worth passing laws about.

 

And for the original question: I guess the crimes of Stalin and his cohorts were easier to ignore than those of the Nazis because nobody stumbled over Soviet extermination camps the way they did over the Nazi ones. Germany lost the war, Soviet Union didn't.


Edited by Aelgyn, 09 November 2017 - 09:52 PM.


Aelgyn #18 Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:17 PM

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View PostStuftRock1, on 09 November 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

The swastika represents a people that committed genocide against a people of a certain religion, so the swastika is known as a very anti semitic symbol. 

 

The Nazis didn't target only the Jewish people. They also went after Roma, Slavs, homosexuals, Communists, and those that were mentally and physically handicapped. Roma people, in particular, were targeted for extermination just like the Jewish people. The swastika should remind us of all these victims not just of some of them.



Huncho_Mystic #19 Posted 10 November 2017 - 04:21 PM

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g

 


Edited by hmsmystic, 10 November 2017 - 05:26 PM.


Thrillhelm #20 Posted 11 November 2017 - 10:06 PM

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No one wants swastikas in this game because it offends too many people, it causes too many legal problems, and simply you don't want modern day nazis attract to your game.





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