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76th Anniversary of Pearl Harbor

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giaka #41 Posted 08 December 2017 - 10:53 PM

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View Postkoiftt, on 08 December 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

 

Even if the only outcome of the Attack on Pearl Harbour was America declaring war against and defeating Japan, as you yourself admit, it would make it a huge monumental turning point. Typical Western WWII ignorance.

Probably a bunch of Chinese that would agree with you.


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USSWISCONSIN94 #42 Posted 08 December 2017 - 10:53 PM

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View Postkoiftt, on 08 December 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

 

 Typical Western WWII ignorance.

Sigh :facepalm:


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koiftt #43 Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:00 PM

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View Posttest777777, on 08 December 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

While it was tragic and a turning point in the war, every countries citizens has its own tragic tale of loss from that awful time and loss and tragedy was a daily occurrence. 

 

Im an Australian, more bombs fell on Darwin than Pearl Harbour but Outside of Australia it wouldn’t be common knowledge. Half the world probably hasn’t even heard of Darwin and couldn’t care a less anyway.   European cities,were flattened by bombing and then there was the massive tragic end to the war with untold deathtoll to Japanese civilian population. 

7th of December was definitely a turning point of the war but I can’t help wondering if it changed things for the better...USA didn’t seem to care prior to that event.  If it’s any consolation, I know the date and do think of the loss. 

Most poignant and truthful post in this thread.

However to help you wonder if it changed for the better, the Japanese considered an Invasion of Australia in February 42. I would think the events of December 7th and the reaction of the American people played a huge part in that discussion. They decided against invasion, as we know.

 



koiftt #44 Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:03 PM

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View Postgiaka, on 08 December 2017 - 10:44 PM, said:

 

I lived there as a kid and visited often. Several times I would come across folks on vacation from Japan pointing and laughing. I was only a kid but it seemed to me there was nothing to laugh about at the memorial. Fast forward 15 years, I'm a Marine stationed in Japan taking a guided trip though the Hiroshima museum. Again as an adult I didn't find anything what so ever to laugh about. I chalked up the laughing tourist at Pearl as a cultural difference.

 

Sorry G, that was a really important post and i kinda buried it.

Destraag #45 Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:19 PM

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View PostEmothic, on 07 December 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

 

It's not really a turning point. Germany would of lost the war regardless of American help or not, the only difference is that without American help it would of taken longer. Also When Japan attacked, America only declared war on Japan and not on Germany. The only reason why America fought against Germany was because Germany declared war on America two weeks later. So realisticlly America would only fight against Japan and would 'maybe' declare war on Germany after the defeat of Japan.  

 

The `difference` would be in the political landscape after the war. 

 

The US didn't go to war over pearl harbor that was just the casus belli. 


When a person resorts to attacking the other person rather than focusing on the issue (aka argumentum ad hominem), it becomes pretty clear they have nothing else to contribute and are wrong.


Panzer lV #46 Posted 09 December 2017 - 12:19 AM

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The Allies won the war. BTW The USSR suffered 26.4 million Military irreverseable losses ie, KIA/WIA/MIA. Civilian irreversible losses 16.9 million. Also one cannot discount discount the contribution of Lend Lease. Ie, Soviet military operations in early 1943 were only possible due to LL fuel deliveries, without the deliveries, Soviet operations cease.

 

Soviet aircraft production, was bolstered by LL aluminum deliveries, which allowed them to produce more aircraft. LL deliveries of rail cars, trucks, food, boots, tanks, aircraft, food, radar, etc were vital to Soviet forces.England was bankrupt, and relied on LL for it's survival ie, food, oil, military goods etc. Winning a war involves much more then bodies, every nation paid in blood to win WW2 regardless of iireversible loss totals, and Allied nations deserve our thanks for their sacrafices.

 

And lastly i have never seen any historians claim the US single handily won WW2 etc. And "only 450,000" wow, thats just wow, only??....

 

Regards, John Waters

 

 


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SlagInGristle #47 Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:04 AM

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View PostPanzer lV, on 09 December 2017 - 12:19 AM, said:

The Allies won the war. BTW The USSR suffered 26.4 million Military irreverseable losses ie, KIA/WIA/MIA. Civilian irreversible losses 16.9 million. Also one cannot discount discount the contribution of Lend Lease. Ie, Soviet military operations in early 1943 were only possible due to LL fuel deliveries, without the deliveries, Soviet operations cease.

 

Soviet aircraft production, was bolstered by LL aluminum deliveries, which allowed them to produce more aircraft. LL deliveries of rail cars, trucks, food, boots, tanks, aircraft, food, radar, etc were vital to Soviet forces.England was bankrupt, and relied on LL for it's survival ie, food, oil, military goods etc. Winning a war involves much more then bodies, every nation paid in blood to win WW2 regardless of iireversible loss totals, and Allied nations deserve our thanks for their sacrafices.

 

And lastly i have never seen any historians claim the US single handily won WW2 etc. And "only 450,000" wow, thats just wow, only??....

 

Regards, John Waters

 

 

LL shipment more often than not wound up at the bottom of the ocean.... not that the corporations cared, they took our tax money just the same. That program was a pretty big joke, but some people made huge profits. The body count would indicate that some people’s involved had more ( in this case much more ) to do with victory than others. 

 

Most people in in the west watch movies and celebrate events where 5 - 30k people where lost where the axis eastern fronts had battles where millions were lost..... probably really wouldn’t make a good movie? Just death death death and grim horror. Your family smashed your neighbors smashed, your own countrymen pushing you into service with the option of a bullet in the back of the head..... grim for sure. Those peoples don’t seem to glorify war and probably also don’t make movies wrapped in flags and glory because - it would offend too many people. 

 

I think Pearl Harbor could have been avoided as do many who were there including the command. Politicians. 


:bush:

Panzer lV #48 Posted 09 December 2017 - 10:25 AM

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I have no idea why you quoted my post . I am well aware of the scope and scale of the Eastren front as well as the loss totals etc. For years the USSR hid the irreversible loss data from the public. As well as the true importance of LL, it wasn't till the 90s when the archves were opepened, and the secret stamps were femoved that the truth was finaly starting to be found out ie,research by Krivosheev, Sokolvs etc.

 

Your remark on LL is typical of the CW attitude concerning any Allied contributions. Yet the fact remains LL was very important to the USSR. putting the corperation spin, on LL is irrelevant, as WWII was one of the few times the US was galvanized, the whole country came together to win that war, no other war since WWII has had the support from the public as WWII had. And the cost was huge on the US especialy as the debts were never paid and eventualy let go by the US to both England & the USSR. 

 

As for movies they are entertainment, their plenty of documentaries from all nations, that provide in depth data on WWII you will never see in a movie as well, counleess books. War is death, everyone knows this, ppls deaths in other countries do not diminish the deaths of any nations troops that served in the war regardless of irreversable loss totals, and its an disservice to them and their famalies to imply otherwise.

 

Regards, John Waters

 

 


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SlagInGristle #49 Posted 09 December 2017 - 01:25 PM

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Racey_Jordan
:bush:

Panzer lV #50 Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:35 PM

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Ah Jordan, although an briefly interesting, cold war charachter,who is popular with conspiracy theorist, he doesn't change anything concerning the benificial effects of Lend Lease, I discribed in my posts,concerning England and the USSR. 

 

 

Regards, John Waters


Edited by Panzer lV, 09 December 2017 - 03:50 PM.

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PanchoVia70 #51 Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:22 PM

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View PostSlagInGristle, on 08 December 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

LL shipment more often than not wound up at the bottom of the ocean.... not that the corporations cared, they took our tax money just the same. That program was a pretty big joke, but some people made huge profits. The body count would indicate that some people’s involved had more ( in this case much more ) to do with victory than others. 

 

Most people in in the west watch movies and celebrate events where 5 - 30k people where lost where the axis eastern fronts had battles where millions were lost..... probably really wouldn’t make a good movie? Just death death death and grim horror. Your family smashed your neighbors smashed, your own countrymen pushing you into service with the option of a bullet in the back of the head..... grim for sure. Those peoples don’t seem to glorify war and probably also don’t make movies wrapped in flags and glory because - it would offend too many people. 

 

I think Pearl Harbor could have been avoided as do many who were there including the command. Politicians. 

This is an idiotic rant. Did you even read it before you posted. 



test777777 #52 Posted 09 December 2017 - 06:55 PM

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View PostHobbit Rampage, on 09 December 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

I don't think they even note the battle of Kursk do they ?

No idea but they probably should because Tanks. 


 

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Panzer lV #53 Posted 09 December 2017 - 09:33 PM

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Who doesn't note Kursk? I know back when i was in school we were taught Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, & Berlin. That's what got me interested in the Eastren Front. My grahdfather was in the USN and as in China in 37 when Japanese attacked. By 1940 he was an Merchant Marine he survived the Wolf Pacts, running supplies to England, and Murmansk runs to bring the USSR. He also participated on D Day as his ship transported the artificial harbor peices.

 

My uncles all served in the various branches of the miltary US Army, USAAF, & USN in WW2 & some never came home. I wonder if some ppl asking about hearing about Kursk etc, have ever heard of GuadaL Canal, Midway, Iwo Jima, the Hurtegen Forest, the Ardennes etc.

 

Regards, John Waters


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SlagInGristle #54 Posted 09 December 2017 - 09:35 PM

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View PostPanchoVia70, on 09 December 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

This is an idiotic rant. Did you even read it before you posted. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husband_E._Kimmel

 

look into the commander of the guard on the day of the attack as well as the other shenanigans that blatantly ignored solid intelligence that the attack was happening.... it’s almost as if someone wanted a blood bath. So many finally exonerated posthumously.  


:bush:

DUTCHMASTER803 #55 Posted 09 December 2017 - 10:40 PM

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View Postkoiftt, on 08 December 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

 

As has already been stated these numbers include civilians in a war that was fought on German, Russian, Chinese soil.

Interesting to point out though, the highest number is Chinese dead. Who do you think it was that killed them? And who was the dominant force that stopped them?

 

But yet WG insists on releasing stupid garbage cartoon tanks for a certain Nation.  do they truly know how many Chinese were killed during World War II?  how many other Asian countries lost countless numbers of people? WG  even released a non-existent tiger tank for the Japs,  but yet we finally get the French Tiger but only for War Stories, it was real it's parked in a museum.  I think that this is one of the main reasons why I had quit supporting this game as much as I did in past years. Until today I had never heard about Australia's version of Pearl Harbor I wish wargaming would do more Ops based on history  so it can try and educate the player base instead of stupid anime garbage  that in my honest opinion is only for pervs and little kids.


PanchoVia70 #56 Posted 09 December 2017 - 10:56 PM

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View PostSlagInGristle, on 09 December 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husband_E._Kimmel

 

look into the commander of the guard on the day of the attack as well as the other shenanigans that blatantly ignored solid intelligence that the attack was happening.... it’s almost as if someone wanted a blood bath. So many finally exonerated posthumously.  

First, let me offer this advice to you, never use Wikipedia as a source. If you do not know why I’m telling you this then you will probably never understand. 

 

Second, it’s so easy for us to read something that took place nearly eighty y are ago and judge that this happened or this happened or someone didn’t do this or that and that this was a conspiracy. 

 

You speak of the lend lease program being a distaster, you mention that taxes were just taken from “us” but we weren’t around for that, you mention corporates making out in the entire situation, and then you go on about movies being glorified. 

 

Your argument or complaints are so generalized that it’s hard to take anything you mentioned seriously.  



PanchoVia70 #57 Posted 09 December 2017 - 10:58 PM

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View PostDUTCHMASTER803, on 09 December 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

 

But yet WG insists on releasing stupid garbage cartoon tanks for a certain Nation.  do they truly know how many Chinese were killed during World War II?  how many other Asian countries lost countless numbers of people? WG  even released a non-existent tiger tank for the Japs,  but yet we finally get the French Tiger but only for War Stories, it was real it's parked in a museum.  I think that this is one of the main reasons why I had quit supporting this game as much as I did in past years. Until today I had never heard about Australia's version of Pearl Harbor I wish wargaming would do more Ops based on history  so it can try and educate the player base instead of stupid anime garbage  that in my honest opinion is only for pervs and little kids.

I’m pretty sure that Japan actually purchased a Tiger tank from Germany. It never left Germany but it’s not based on a non existent tank. 



Snorelacks #58 Posted 09 December 2017 - 11:14 PM

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View PostPanchoVia70, on 09 December 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

First, let me offer this advice to you, never use Wikipedia as a source. If you do not know why I’m telling you this then you will probably never understand.

 

Second, it’s so easy for us to read something that took place nearly eighty y are ago and judge that this happened or this happened or someone didn’t do this or that and that this was a conspiracy.

 

You speak of the lend lease program being a distaster, you mention that taxes were just taken from “us” but we weren’t around for that, you mention corporates making out in the entire situation, and then you go on about movies being glorified.

 

Your argument or complaints are so generalized that it’s hard to take anything you mentioned seriously.

 

^^^^^^I stopped paying attention to his posts when he made his statements regarding Lend Lease, completely ignoring or not even knowing about the dire financial situation and draining gold reserves of England. England is a fantastic country and stood extremely tall against the Germans and Italians for a long time before the United States entered the war. However, by minimizing the importance of Lend Lease, the Pan-American Security Zone established in 1939, or the support lent just after Dunkirk just establishes the poster's willingness to gloss over details that played a large part in England's ability to hold the line so bravely. Maybe he should read Winston Churchill's great book "The Second World War" in order to gain a better understanding of just how much the United States helped, as told by Winston Churchill himself.


 


PanchoVia70 #59 Posted 10 December 2017 - 12:18 AM

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View PostSnorelacks, on 09 December 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

 

^^^^^^I stopped paying attention to his posts when he made his statements regarding Lend Lease, completely ignoring or not even knowing about the dire financial situation and draining gold reserves of England. England is a fantastic country and stood extremely tall against the Germans and Italians for a long time before the United States entered the war. However, by minimizing the importance of Lend Lease, the Pan-American Security Zone established in 1939, or the support lent just after Dunkirk just establishes the poster's willingness to gloss over details that played a large part in England's ability to hold the line so bravely. Maybe he should read Winston Churchill's great book "The Second World War" in order to gain a better understanding of just how much the United States helped, as told by Winston Churchill himself.

You definitely sound like the type of guy I could spend hours conversing with and never get bored!  A very insightful post which highlights very unique topics which were all intricately linked together. :)



Snorelacks #60 Posted 10 December 2017 - 12:39 AM

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View PostPanchoVia70, on 09 December 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

You definitely sound like the type of guy I could spend hours conversing with and never get bored!  A very insightful post which highlights very unique topics which were all intricately linked together. :)

 

I've been interested in Geopolitics and history for a very long time. The 7 years I was stationed in Spain (87-95) while I was flying in the Navy and deploying all over the world really forced me to dig deeper than the topical information most only look at. I figured that if I was flying missions in these different areas, I might as well dig into the factors and root causes driving our efforts.

 

Maybe we should platoon sometime and gibber jabber about history :trollface:


Edited by Snorelacks, 10 December 2017 - 12:42 AM.


 





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