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Kraft's Panther compared to Champion/M10

Buff Update Panther/M10 Krafts Panther Champion

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I44I Warlock #1 Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:27 PM

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Hello Wargaming,

 

After the Buff the Champion/M10 performs very well, you made it an awesome and funny tank, thanks for that. 

But now the Kraft's Panther is worse compared to the Champion/M10 but plays up to t9. 

 

Champion has:

-5m more view range (360m vs 365m)

-100 Hitpoints more (1200 vs 1300) 

-2.5 shots more/min (12.5 vs 15)

-5mm more Hull and Turret armor because of the spaced armor. 

-8 deg/s more rotation speed (30 vs 38) 

-0.2s better aim time (2.5 vs 2.3)

-160m more signal range (550m vs 710m)

 

So the Kraft's Panther has less view range, less signal range, less rotation speed, less Hitpoints, worse armor, worse dpm, worse gunhandling and is a bigger target but plays up a tier higher. 

The only advantage is the higher pen (198/244 vs 150/194)

 

I think this makes the Kraft's Panther worse than the Champion, but it should be a little bit better than the Champion because it plays up to t9. 

 

My suggested Buff:

-aim time from 2.5s to 2.3s (equal with Champ and tt Panther)

- either: Damage/shot from 135 to 150 for Kraft's and tt Panther (15 more than the Champ and same as the T71 which has the same matchmaking)

Or: rof up to 15rpm for Kraft's and tt Panther (equal with Champ and PC tt Panther)

-View range from 360 to 380 (15m more than Champ, equal with tt Panther)

-Engine Power from 700 to 800 (100 more than Champ but 70 less than tt Panther)

-Hitpoints from 1200 to 1300 (equal with Champ and tt Panther)

 

With this Buff the Kraft's Panther would be a good crossover between the Champion/M10 and the techtree Panther. The stats would be better than the Champion, which they sould be, and worse or equal than the Stats of the tt Panther. 

 

I would be glad if you'd remind my suggestion for the next update. 

 

Warlock:honoring:


     

                  

 

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Rarefication #2 Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:33 PM

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I agree. The Kraft needs a bit of a buff. As it stands I'd take the M10 Champion out over it any day.

I44I Warlock #3 Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:44 PM

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View PostRarefication, on 03 January 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

 As it stands I'd take the M10 Champion out over it any day.

 

I've played my Champion a lot the last days to 3 mark it, my next project is the Kraft's Panther and it really feels like a step backwarts. (except the awesome Pen of course)  


     

                  

 

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Rarefication #4 Posted 03 January 2018 - 09:06 PM

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View PostI44I Warlock, on 03 January 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

 

I've played my Champion a lot the last days to 3 mark it, my next project is the Kraft's Panther and it really feels like a step backwarts. (except the awesome Pen of course)  

 

Yeah, that pen is awesome. Btw, congrats on three marking your Champion!

Cannon x Fodder #5 Posted 03 January 2018 - 09:19 PM

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I've never understood the damage on the l100.  On every other tank where they've increased the barrel lengths, both pen and damage increased.  20hp more on the l71 vs l56.  5 hp more on the 17pdr vs the HV77 of the comment. Etc...

JelliedPenny08 #6 Posted 03 January 2018 - 10:07 PM

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I've liked and championed the Revenant from the start. It could do with an update though. I agree, but don't think more damage per shot is the way to go. It is a sniper and part of its character is to chip away at enemies. Increasing the damage would undermine that. It would be perceived as more of a threat and draw unnecessary attention. 

 

I think it needs an improved aim time to make it more flexible. On top of that an improved rof to make it able to get other tanks to keep their heads down. I also think it needs a bit more view range so it is less team dependant. 

 

Engine power to get up and accelerate off the line and to get to steep positions would be nice, but I don't know that could be done without making it more powerful generally. Maybe improve the terrain resistances slightly only for hard ground? 

 

There is an awful lot of room that can be safely explored before the Kraft would have to worry about being overpowered. The Champion has just highlighted that. Come on WG - it's time to start exploring...  :)


Edited by JelliedPenny08, 03 January 2018 - 10:09 PM.


Wroclaw #7 Posted 04 January 2018 - 04:15 AM

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premiums should not perform worse than their TT equivalent.

 

the Kraft is an excellent example of a tank needing a "un-nerf"



Muttz v2 #8 Posted 05 January 2018 - 10:04 PM

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View PostWroclaw, on 04 January 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

premiums should not perform worse than their TT equivalent.

 

the Kraft is an excellent example of a tank needing a "un-nerf"

 

​well yes they should. this game is (or was) about the tech tree tanks and grinding them out. prems were just for crew training and silver grinding to help the tt grind. prem tanks that are as good as tt tanks are pay to win as the improved silver earnings mean you can afford to spam prem etc. also crew issues.  

 

i know thats an outdated idea these days with lycan etc but i still belive they should be at least slighty worse or whats the point of the techtree??

 

but after sayin that the krafts is trash, not even just compared to the old title holder of worst prem the pz m10 but it plays to the same tier as the panther8.8 and that tanks way better.



Wroclaw #9 Posted 05 January 2018 - 11:09 PM

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View PostMuttz v2, on 05 January 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

 

​well yes they should. this game is (or was) about the tech tree tanks and grinding them out. prems were just for crew training and silver grinding to help the tt grind. prem tanks that are as good as tt tanks are pay to win as the improved silver earnings mean you can afford to spam prem etc. also crew issues.  

 

no. NO they shouldnt.

 

your paying good money for a silver & xp boost. as well the ability to use any crew.

 

your performance shouldnt be neutered in-game using a tank you paid for compared to the FREE version. 

 

afterall why should it ? theres NO good reason. these tanks will often be hosting your lesser perked crews. your paying to get that increse in silver, that increase in XP - not to get an increased chance at winning

 

im not saying anything about increased performance. im saying premiums should have parity in performance with the TT version.

 

the top engine. the top gun. 


Edited by Wroclaw, 05 January 2018 - 11:11 PM.


Muttz v2 #10 Posted 06 January 2018 - 12:32 AM

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View PostWroclaw, on 05 January 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

 

no. NO they shouldnt.

 

your paying good money for a silver & xp boost. as well the ability to use any crew.

 

your performance shouldnt be neutered in-game using a tank you paid for compared to the FREE version. 

 

afterall why should it ? theres NO good reason. these tanks will often be hosting your lesser perked crews. your paying to get that increse in silver, that increase in XP - not to get an increased chance at winning

 

im not saying anything about increased performance. im saying premiums should have parity in performance with the TT version.

 

the top engine. the top gun. 

no what you pay good money for depends on the tank. if its low tier with a high xp multiplyer your paying for the increased crew training in the form of the extra x2 you get with multiple tanks and the 25% bonus you get with it being elite which the tank your grinding wont be.. or if its a high tier your paying for again the extra x2 and a small xp bonus, but the main thing is the silver multiplyer which can be 50 or 60%.

 

the point of the game is to get the good tanks by grinding them out. this can be done for free which makes this game great as every player is able to get the best tanks without spending money... however the game needs to make money to carry on being a game so they sell prem time, which gives no in battle advantage, just makes the grind quicker and less painfull, and also prem tanks which also do the same kinda job. plus converting xp yada yada... world of tanks was designed to make its money from people grinding the tech tree and paying for prem time/tanks to help that grind. if you could just turn up and buy the best tanks then theres no point grinding is there? thats why the only way to get a tier9 or 10 is to grind it. 

 

this game is about the "free tanks" as you call them, they are the best tanks and thats the way it should be, and how it allways has been.

 

if you look at the older prem tanks most are trash, the pz m10 as it was pre buff, matilda4 matildaBP spring to mind, you got the odd one that wg messed up on the ballance with like the e25 or su76i and these were removed from sale on pc becuse of that...but as a rule they were worse than tt tanks, kv5 was kv4 but with worse gun and huge weak points. if you look at more recent tanks like the knight well thats just a cromwell but with a worse gun. the huntsman is a cent with smaller engine etc etc... all like tt tanks but worse somehow.

 

the other thing is if you was to just play prem tanks then you would only need one crew per nation which you could use in all the tanks with no retraining, they would soon be a super powerfull crew and if in a prem as good as a tt tank that would be a huge advantage over the guy whos grinding a crew for that line. cromwell with 2 or 3 skills agenst a knight with 20 that can spam prem and still make money. thats pay to win, unless the prem is handycapped in some way. 

 

btw im not anti prem tank, i have about 130 of them, what im anti is pay to win and im not happy about the new op prem tanks that are comming, they are just cheating. but with wg on a cash grab before warthunder lands and prems getting better then the krafts does need a buff, but not to the point its as good as a tt panther. that would be silly.



Wroclaw #11 Posted 06 January 2018 - 03:50 AM

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View PostMuttz v2, on 06 January 2018 - 12:32 AM, said:

 they are the best tanks and thats the way it should be, and how it allways has been.

 

 its not the way it should stay for the Premiums that have a TT counterpart.

 

this isnt about pay to win. you already can just play premiums. these tanks do nothing to help you thru the tech tree - they are for crew training & because of this they shouldnt be suffering from lower performance.

 

with premiums your not paying for increased performance. this isnt about getting an in-game advantage - its about removing a disadvantage that shouldnt exist in the first place.

 

you shouldnt have to put up with decreased performance in a tank you have paid for.


Edited by Wroclaw, 06 January 2018 - 03:59 AM.


Muttz v2 #12 Posted 06 January 2018 - 09:26 AM

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View PostWroclaw, on 06 January 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

 

 its not the way it should stay for the Premiums that have a TT counterpart.

 

 

i understand your point of view and iv gotta admit that is the way the game is heading and i think its a bad thing. 

this game is about the grind, taking a stock tank, upgrading it and moving up to t10. that means playing stock tanks and a lot of the time with bad crews and agenst tanks 2 tiers higher. now being able to skip that grind upto tier8 and use your best crew and get better crew training and get more silver is a HUGE advantage. thats pay to win. the fact prem tanks are not quite as good as tt tanks is a important balancing factor.

 

View PostWroclaw, on 06 January 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

 

this isnt about pay to win. you already can just play premiums.

 

 

yes you can just play prems, but thats not really the point of the game. i guess thats ok for the casual player but its bad for the game as a whole as it reduces the amount of stock or part upgraded tanks in a game and makes the grind harder for those who grind through tanks to get to the end game (t10) this is even worse for new players grinding they're first line. 

 

View PostWroclaw, on 06 January 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

 

 these tanks do nothing to help you thru the tech tree - they are for crew training & because of this they shouldnt be suffering from lower performance.

 

 

the whole point of these tanks is to help your tt grind. on console we get about a 30% better silver and xp earn rate than pc do. they are more meaningfull on pc but the point still holds true that there job is to train the crews of your tt tanks and provide silver for upgrades and tank purchases that tt tanks struggle to earn. they should only be played to get training and silver and to encourage players back into tt tanks prems are nurffed slighty.

 

 

View PostWroclaw, on 06 January 2018 - 03:50 AM, said: 

 

with premiums your not paying for increased performance. this isnt about getting an in-game advantage - its about removing a disadvantage that shouldnt exist in the first place.

 

not having to grind out a 75% crew in a stock tank does give you an advantage, they do perform better than a tank that is not fully upgraded. i understand you dont want to pay money for something not quite as good, but they are as good, hell they are amazing at doing there job, and that job is helping the tt grind, prem tanks are not end game, they should be used to help a grind, not skip it.

 

View PostWroclaw, on 06 January 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

 

you shouldnt have to put up with decreased performance in a tank you have paid for.

 

but what have you paid for?? is it crew training?? is it silver?? or is it to skip the grind?? if its xp or silver then you are getting as much as a 95% boost for crews in something like a churchill3 (70% xp boost + 25% elite tank boost) but that tank is so bad it has pmm as tier7 tanks would destroy it, but a stock Churchill 1 is still expected to fight them. 

 

if you paid money to skip the grind thats pay to win, but not if what you get will never be as competitive as a tank you have to grind for. 

 

look i love my prem tanks but im fully aware that my cromwell is a better tank than my knight, right up to the point i put my 7/1 crew in it. i think thats wrong but its how the games heading. its moving from being a grinding game to a pay to play for casuals where what you say makes more sense than me. its a game of 15v15 and i want to play it with skilled players who have ground stock tanks and have a deeper understanding of the game than the guy who turns up, buys a kv5 then parks behind you and gets you killed (i was that guy 3 years ago) . you get that skill and knowledge from grinding not paying. 



Wroclaw #13 Posted 06 January 2018 - 09:41 PM

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View PostMuttz v2, on 06 January 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

i think its a bad thing. 

 

im sorry but you have an issue with over-performing premiums & that issue doesnt have a place in this discussion. suffering with a 75% crew is a disadvantage. getting rid of that disadvantage isnt a performance increase. bad players are found at all tiers - your dislike of high tier premiums has nothing to do with this issue.

 

tanks with PMM are not part of this discussion.

 

tanks without a TT equivalent are not part of this discussion.

 

but a tank like the Krafts shouldnt be worse than the TT version.

 

the extra silver & XP are what your paying for. that it earns more is not a reason to take away its in-game performance. your paying for that increased earning. & your consistently putting new crews thru these premiums.

 

its a punishment for people who are willing to pay - for no good reason.

 

these tanks need a de-nerf. a performance increase isnt whats being asked for.


Edited by Wroclaw, 06 January 2018 - 09:45 PM.


Muttz v2 #14 Posted 07 January 2018 - 02:30 AM

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View PostWroclaw, on 06 January 2018 - 09:41 PM, said:

 

im sorry but you have an issue with over-performing premiums & that issue doesnt have a place in this discussion. suffering with a 75% crew is a disadvantage. getting rid of that disadvantage isnt a performance increase. bad players are found at all tiers - your dislike of high tier premiums has nothing to do with this issue.

 

tanks with PMM are not part of this discussion.

 

tanks without a TT equivalent are not part of this discussion.

 

but a tank like the Krafts shouldnt be worse than the TT version.

 

the extra silver & XP are what your paying for. that it earns more is not a reason to take away its in-game performance. your paying for that increased earning. & your consistently putting new crews thru these premiums.

 

its a punishment for people who are willing to pay - for no good reason.

 

these tanks need a de-nerf. a performance increase isnt whats being asked for.

 

​your right, this is getting off topic. 

 

in my opinion the krafts dont need a buff, its a sniper and it does that job well. compared to the panther 8.8 which is a tier8 pmm and see's the same top tier it is a poor tank. i personaly think it should get pmm and see a max tier8 game, not a buff for the reasons i listed above. 

 

@wroclaw i think your wrong but good luck with your campaign, if you do manage to get it buffed im sure i'll play it more.... btw i dont have a problem with high tier prems, just bad balance and pay to win.



Cannon x Fodder #15 Posted 07 January 2018 - 04:20 AM

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View PostMuttz v2, on 07 January 2018 - 02:30 AM, said:

 

​your right, this is getting off topic. 

 

in my opinion the krafts dont need a buff, its a sniper and it does that job well. compared to the panther 8.8 which is a tier8 pmm and see's the same top tier it is a poor tank. i personaly think it should get pmm and see a max tier8 game, not a buff for the reasons i listed above. 

 

@wroclaw i think your wrong but good luck with your campaign, if you do manage to get it buffed im sure i'll play it more.... btw i dont have a problem with high tier prems, just bad balance and pay to win.

You're partially right, the krafts doesn't need a buff...ALL PANTHERS need a buff.







Also tagged with Buff, Update, Panther/M10, Krafts Panther, Champion

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