63 replies to this topic

[GUNMETALGREY1]

Xenith_Inc, on 07 March 2018 - 09:12 AM, said:

 

So you, as someone with 16k games, find proving grounds easy?

 

Have you considered that the PG bots have higher WN8 than most new players? Multiplayer is actually easier than PG when starting out. Some of the War Stories missions are very very difficult to complete in stock tanks provided. 

I respectfully disagree with this^^^^. I want new players to stay and improve but I don’t think PvE is the way to go. It is teaching new players bad habits for when they transition to multiplayer such as just sitting sideways to other tanks they are engaging or just sitting out in the open and not get flanked or focus fired because the bots don’t do any of this. They grind up thru the tiers in PvEand then jump in to multiplayer at higher tiers and in my opinion, is what causes such lopsided blowouts over and over. 

 

The result is you basically get newer players at higher tiers faster and less prepared as far as the basics go and the expectation they will dominate like they did in PvE. Then you get the mess that is higher tiers, people capping with 2 tanks dead per side or the game is 15-2 and over in 4 minutes. Again, I want new players to succeed and stick with the game so I can keep enjoying it but I don’t think PvE is the way to go.

 

 

[DUBIOUSrepair]

bux1303, on 07 March 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

Why should new players be specially treated! We had to go the hard way as well! 
No matter if you started on PC or console. The new players even have the opportunity to play and learn on the console. 
Everyone who plays WoT also has internet and can, like us (the old school) in the internet make smart with regard to weak spots, camouflage, sight, etc.

That's why I say "NO" to this topic. 

Those who want to learn can do it without a newbie protection.

And because of this position, the game will not be sustainable. Dwindling player is already a problem on the west server. Total player counts are not what they were 2 years ago. Seal clubbers or even legitimate crew training good players make it very difficult for new players to stay motivated to progress. 

I started on day 1 of the release of WoT console and didnt have to deal with the issues plaguing new players today. These problems are real and pose a significant problem to this games longevity.

 

[Gallant Prime]

It is a complex problem that in order to solve will likely lead to not everyone being 100 percent happy. 

 

In regards to Proving Grounds nerf--I don't think that would deter those just starting out.  Did anyone check to see what the earn rate was before at lower tiers versus higher tier and premium tank use?  I think we assume it is in some way proportional, but it does not have to be.  Perhaps it could be adjusted (crew training wise at least) for new players.  Having too robust of a Proving Grounds though would deter people from PvP and lets face it, there is no replacement for the experience of playing PvP.  Saying all that, I think I will be taking my tier 5 Chinese TD w/ a no skill 75 percent crew to proving grounds/war stories now after having my rear handed to me the last couple days.  (another way to get veterans out of the low tiers?)

 

I completely agree/think single tier match making should exist from T1-T3--or at least extremely weighted to own tier (80-90 percent).  T4 should be weighted to see 85 percent T4 ​and 15 percent with T5.  T5 could be weighed to see less tier 7 than average (~25 percent).  T6 the same (even slightly less T8--~30 percent)  This would essentially trickle up until T9 (there is no T11).  The numbers are rough estimates, because to trickle up it has to trickle down, but instead of having T5 bear the overwhelming brunt of it, distribute it among the tiers.  The problem is that it may cause more players to flock to lower tiers to not have to deal with +2/-2 MM at all.  

 

Of course if they did something like 1 tier differential throughout the tiers this would be easy peasy.  Maybe not, but you could bump arty and TDs up a tier--re-balance any of those and the other over performers, adjust again after a few months or immediately as obvious problems arise.  This would also take care of all of those PMM tanks and nestle console as a more distinct version between PC and Blitz.  The problem is the +2/-2 premiums as changes entail refunds but because they are no longer -2 maybe it will be fine. 

 

Ops (particularly tanks ops) should have the lower end cut off adjusted likely--maybe base the op on playing tanks within the battles tiers of the give away tank or having a low tier and high tier option based upon games played.  (Yes there will be gripes)  The difficulty is that players should play the tanks they want to play.  

 

The low tier premiums are interesting.  I would start by not selling certain ones for awhile.  They at least have bumped the price up on the Sexton I.  I would then consider some type of trade in discount for a newer higher tier premium (if MS and Sony would allow) or a discount voucher (?).  Changes may entail refunds (even if it was free some compensation should be provided--discount voucher?).  You can easily move the T-Rex to tier 3 (maybe slow its interclip to more like the Swede T2 premium we just got, and slight pen buff if necessary.  Bump the MTLS a tier and adjust its gun/ammo characteristics (technically it was a free bonus when first sold).  Sexton I, just move to tier 5.   

 

Edit:  I also dumped some tank commander audio feedback and HUD pop-up ideas for in-game guidance for new players in the suggestions area.  The tank commander could be a very good and basic teacher about things like ammo type, ideas about where the battle will be on the map (heavily armored heavy to the city!), not ramming your teammates and not blocking your teammates shots.

 

Edit 2:  I do think the Targeted! change has been very helpful when driving a crew without sixth sense.  The immediacy outweighs the directional lost.  

Edited by Gallant Prime, 07 March 2018 - 03:38 PM.

[DUBIOUSrepair]

kill2chilll, on 07 March 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

A simple solution would be to penalize seal clubbers for playing lower tiers. For example , if your Wn8 is over a 1000 you would only see bottom tier at tier four and below, so the guy in a skilled up Matilda isn't battering noobs in tier threes which can't touch him,  the  stats would not be recorded on your account to prevent stat padding kds etc, increased cost for ammo and reduced exp available as many experienced players rank up skills in lower tier premiums.  All of these would reduce the attrativeness of battering new players.

Problem is, how does one identify a seal clubber from a good player taking advantage of low tiers crew xp bonuses to shore up his/her skill set? Punishing is not an answer. 

As I suggested earlier, suspend skills and perks for low tiers. Still earn them for the crews of low tiers, but dont make them available for use until the crew is assigned to a higher tier tank. 

This addresses seal clubbers by taking away their skill/perk advantage, it allows legitimate crew training to continue and it provides a place where new players can develop their core skills.

[Gallant Prime]

DUBIOUSrepair, on 07 March 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

Problem is, how does one identify a seal clubber from a good player taking advantage of low tiers crew xp bonuses to shore up his/her skill set? Punishing is not an answer. 

As I suggested earlier, suspend skills and perks for low tiers. Still earn them for the crews of low tiers, but dont make them available for use until the crew is assigned to a higher tier tank. 

This addresses seal clubbers by taking away their skill/perk advantage, it allows legitimate crew training to continue and it provides a place where new players can develop their core skills.

 

​I've had that suspend thought before and think it would be helpful--at least the first 4 tiers.  

[SpartanFire71]

GUNMETALGREY1, on 07 March 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

I respectfully disagree with this^^^^. I want new players to stay and improve but I don’t think PvE is the way to go. It is teaching new players bad habits for when they transition to multiplayer such as just sitting sideways to other tanks they are engaging or just sitting out in the open and not get flanked or focus fired because the bots don’t do any of this. ......

 

 

 

Lots of drawbacks, but many benefits like learning weak spots and stay in cover, or even using armor effectively like it was shown in video.  Even if they didn't watch videos, the load screen that shows how angles cause less pen.  There is the one that shows a hull down picture too.   Practicing those on the encounter on Proving Grounds can help as you can't just sit exposing your tank and be successful at this point.  If the player is looking at armor values, they could try the spots out in Proving Grounds.  It does take effort on the players part though to learn which I am not sure how much effort is being put into the learning. 

[TheDeadTANKer]

DUBIOUSrepair, on 07 March 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

Problem is, how does one identify a seal clubber from a good player taking advantage of low tiers crew xp bonuses to shore up his/her skill set? Punishing is not an answer. 

As I suggested earlier, suspend skills and perks for low tiers. Still earn them for the crews of low tiers, but dont make them available for use until the crew is assigned to a higher tier tank. 

This addresses seal clubbers by taking away their skill/perk advantage, it allows legitimate crew training to continue and it provides a place where new players can develop their core skills.

 

​ I dont' think people are really seal clubbing much at low tiers, with the exception of some of the Sexton platoons running around or during certain op's.

 

Low tier's are actually hard to play now even for those with a lot of experience in this game.  Gone are the day's when you could drop down to a tier III prem tank a quickly grind out a crew with a few skills seeing games with mostly other teir III's in a 15v15 match.  No one is clubbing many seals nowadays when you're bottom teir 90% of the time.

 

A little while ago I started a new line and crew, so I decided to make use of all those tier II,III and IV's  prem tanks collecting dust in my garage, big mistake as I was bottom tier in almost every game.  Lower teirs just don't have the player populations they once did to make them  worth while for anyone, even seal clubbers.    

Edited by TheDeadTANKer, 07 March 2018 - 05:06 PM.

[GUNMETALGREY1]

SpartanFire71, on 07 March 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

 

 

Lots of drawbacks, but many benefits like learning weak spots and stay in cover, or even using armor effectively like it was shown in video.  Even if they didn't watch videos, the load screen that shows how angles cause less pen.  There is the one that shows a hull down picture too.   Practicing those on the encounter on Proving Grounds can help as you can't just sit exposing your tank and be successful at this point.  If the player is looking at armor values, they could try the spots out in Proving Grounds.  It does take effort on the players part though to learn which I am not sure how much effort is being put into the learning. 

I agree with this and I think the more training tools new players have, the better. I just don’t think they should be able to progress thru the tiers unless in multiplayer.

[Joco3000]

I have several thoughts on this topic.

The oldest thought I've had on the topic is for matchmaking to be limited in the very lowest of tiers.
I do not think that it is fair for players to be able to face tier V tanks within an hour or so of downloading the game. It's fine for a more experienced player, someone with a few thousand games under their belt, but for a complete newbie with no experience, out of the question.

You can see just how bad that retention is by looking at the Xbox One Achievements ratios. Of the 24% of players that reach tier III, only 11% reach tier V. That's an awful rate.

Another idea would be for those lowest tiers to be partially filled with AI. Make the game look more populated than it actually is.
These AI would also help players learn some aspects of the game. They aren't as good as your average player, but can still kill you if you're too cocky.
Medals involving kills would require a player controlled kill. No easier Rasenai's.

[Cobravert]

The one and only revision that should have been made across the board to keep new players (and lukewarm players) is abolish ALL +2/-2.

Nerfing any in tier tanks (besides the obvious offenders) makes them absolutely useless when they get into a -2 situation. So modifying  the Matilda, Blitzen, and T-Rex as mentioned would be ill advised. It you modify the Matilda, you would have to modify the Churchill IIIs and Cap. KV-1s to be consistent. In other words, the nerfing would never end.

 

Removing +2/-2 would have made playing much less detrimental to everyone. People would never have lost hope or felt like "what's the use if I can't compete in half the games played" because they're -2.

 

This is in itself is the BIGGEST detriment to the game. Nearly everyone I have played with or brought to the game has either quit or just doesn't like to play much because of being "thrown under the bus". That's how we all have come to conclude being -2.

 

Sure there are other issues and things that make the game aggravating to a wide variety of degrees. But just this one thing could have changed the perspective for a multitude of players.

[Gallant Prime]

Cobravert, on 07 March 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

The one and only revision that should have been made across the board to keep new players (and lukewarm players) is abolish ALL +2/-2.

Nerfing any in tier tanks (besides the obvious offenders) makes them absolutely useless when they get into a -2 situation. So modifying  the Matilda, Blitzen, and T-Rex as mentioned would be ill advised. It you modify the Matilda, you would have to modify the Churchill IIIs and Cap. KV-1s to be consistent. In other words, the nerfing would never end.

 

Removing +2/-2 would have made playing much less detrimental to everyone. People would never have lost hope or felt like "what's the use if I can't compete in half the games played" because they're -2.

 

This is in itself is the BIGGEST detriment to the game. Nearly everyone I have played with or brought to the game has either quit or just doesn't like to play much because of being "thrown under the bus". That's how we all have come to conclude being -2.

 

Sure there are other issues and things that make the game aggravating to a wide variety of degrees. But just this one thing could have changed the perspective for a multitude of players.

 

​I think the perception, if nothing else, is worse for the game than the reality.  It doesn't matter if they could be productive, people generally don't like perceived obviously unfair fights.  

 

I like Joco's idea of lower tier AI, but I think you would have people dropping down in tiers because they would feel better about killing 10 bots than taking on real competition.

 

One other thing I would change, and I have mentioned this before as well.  Get rid of tank mastery badges below tier 5--maybe altogether.  Have it broken up into different types of grading on skills such as spotting (and survival), spotted targets hit, accuracy, engagement, armor use, priority targeting, capping (when to cap, when to defend, not just doing it), driving?, etc.  Give xp bonuses for hitting higher grades.  It would allow the better players to progress (get veterans out of lower tiers when new lines come out) and teach the newer players that are learning still a bit longer (some of those old salty veterans as well).

 

Edited by Gallant Prime, 07 March 2018 - 06:14 PM.

[CivilWarGoat]

Reduce cost of moving a crew from teir 1 to 2 to 3 drastically.  Drastically reduce cost of equipment for tier 1 to 3.  Accelerate crew training 100% teir 1 to 3 for any player with under 1000 battles played. 

[Gallant Prime]

CivilWarGoat, on 07 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

Reduce cost of moving a crew from teir 1 to 2 to 3 drastically.  Drastically reduce cost of equipment for tier 1 to 3.  Accelerate crew training 100% teir 1 to 3 for any player with under 1000 battles played. 

 

​They should almost move up for free and get a skill for each tier they move.  Maybe even lock in the skills--SS, mentor, repairs, camo.  I have no idea how you would manage that at this point though.  Maybe even remove equipment from the first 3 tiers.  

[allhavoc]

If they want to play, they'll play.  Make it as easy or hard as you want, doesn't matter.  If they want to play, they'll play.

 

Think about when a friend of yours got you to try out a different game.  Did you quit or stick with it based on how difficult it was?  Or did you decide based the future potential fun you thought you might have?

 

My clearest memory of when I was a new player was getting run down by a pre-nerf Pz. V/IV.  I was in awe.  It didn't make me want to quit, it made me want a V/IV.

 

edit-  I do like Rest's idea of tokens for new players.  Maybe give them out at 50 battles, 100 battles, and 500 battles.  Can be spent on equipment or skills, but not used as tank xp.

Edited by allhavoc, 07 March 2018 - 07:00 PM.

[Pit Friend]

Reducing the low tier seal clubbing, er I mean “crew training” would definitely help. Remove the large XP bonuses for the tier II Premium tanks would be a start as those are generally the ones used ostensibly for training so getting no bonus XP should reduce this. I would also remove the abomination that is the T22 Prototype as it was a stupid idea to begin with, but that’s just me. 

 

Giving PMM to tier III as well would be helpful just to give newer players more of a learning cushion before being thrown to the two tier up wolves. 

 

Possibly filling out the teams with tanks using the new AI might be a good thing as well. Larger games and more XPs to earn. And the new AI is at least aggressive enough to be a bit of a challenge. 

 

Having useful tip tip screens while the matches are loading and possibly instead of the War Stories trailer couldn’t hurt either. Maybe even have tips in the garages as posters so they have a better chance of being seen. 

[Ralphs Dad]

Give new players a tier II prem tank. Their choice of nation. Receive an op like the Primo Victoria. Receive extra crew xp on a win. I ground out 3 skills with that op.

Tiers I to III have +1-1 mm.

Include SS skill explanation in the tutorial.

 

[CodenameGunther]

In my opinion the low tiers need to be reworked in general, it's an entirety different game most matches below t4, when I try to get people into wot it's to get to t5 immediately. That's where the mid to advanced tactics start to come in to play and can be coached. Tank lines also start to have some identity. If it was up to me theyd grind a kv1,m4 and a t67 then play those for a long time working on crew skills and understanding the roles of heavies/mediums/tds.

[Gallant Prime]

They have an intro video now for the game, perhaps incorporating more videos in the game itself would help.  Maybe a video file library--heavy on the data though.  

[steelheadclan]

DUBIOUSrepair, on 07 March 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

And because of this position, the game will not be sustainable. Dwindling player is already a problem on the west server. Total player counts are not what they were 2 years ago. Seal clubbers or even legitimate crew training good players make it very difficult for new players to stay motivated to progress. 

I started on day 1 of the release of WoT console and didnt have to deal with the issues plaguing new players today. These problems are real and pose a significant problem to this games longevity.

 

I remember getting raped in lower tiers. 

I strickly power grind through 1-4 as quickly as possible as I feel I have no business there in the long term.

 

I actually play fairly badly in 1-4. 

Unpredictable plays I can’t plan for and I really don’t try hard as I don’t find it fun at all. 

 

Overall this can can be a difficult game. 

[CyraxPT]

In my opinion, the problem with lower tiers is that it doesn't represent what the game is from tier 5 up. The health of the tanks are really low, so, the player is sent back to the garage without having the chance to do anything because there's no armor and no health to endure some of the other tanks can do.

 

Why bother trying to aim (and waiting for the reticle) when someone just rushes you and clips you in seconds? And some (if not most) of the lower tiers have terrible aiming time and accuracy.

 

Picking up what was said, i would put a PMM until tier 4 and completly rework the lower tiers so that they had a perfect balance of damage and health so that players could be on the battlefield a little longer.

 

I'm currently grinding the chinese TD line (for the China vs Czech Ops) and it's just dumb, i just want to rush out of the lower tiers because i can't adapt to that playstyle, i don't even know how people enjoy sealclubbing in that environment.