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How could Germany have won WWII?


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The1970Hooper #21 Posted 13 July 2018 - 07:01 PM

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Not invading Russia. Built a more modern sub instead of U boats. Found a better leader to uncover and open the ark of the covenant. Told his agent not to accept calls from Tarantino. And now he's gone and tricked arseface to help him escape hell, what's up with that?

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killer etzi0 #22 Posted 13 July 2018 - 07:06 PM

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View PostThe1970Hooper, on 13 July 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

Not invading Russia. Built a more modern sub instead of U boats. Found a better leader to uncover and open the ark of the covenant. Told his agent not to accept calls from Tarantino. And now he's gone and tricked arseface to help him escape hell, what's up with that?

Not been a sociopath. The possibilities are endless. 

 

Indian Jones would never have let him get his hands on it.


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Wroclaw #23 Posted 14 July 2018 - 10:34 PM

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View PostPanthergraf, on 13 July 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

 

How to squeeze out Britain with a failed Luftwaffe and a Joke of a Navy?

 

the RAF was nearly dead. sure they inflicted more than they took but when that heinkle dropped his load on london by mistake there was potentially only 2 weeks worth of fighting left in them.

 

it dont matter how good your navy is when your homeland has total air superiority over it by the aggressor.

 

hitlers biggest mistake was hubris. first invading russia, & then as that was stalling declaring war on america just sealed it.



TURDF3RG3S0N #24 Posted 15 July 2018 - 03:00 AM

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View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 13 July 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

Honestly, they never really had a real chance to begin with.

 

A system built on betrayal, corruption, and greed will never last long. 

 

Hitler took advantage of an economic crisis and the feelings of resentment for how Germany was treated after WW1...he riled up the country and then refused to compromise or take advice even when he himself knew little to nothing about how it operated (such as in Naval matters) and believed that victory was always possible if the German people were simply strong willed enough.

 

Germany simply was not capable of maintaining warfare in the long term. Yes, there were mistakes that could have simply prolonged the inevitable but they were doomed from the start.

 

 

Pretty much nailed it.  In addition to a flawed power-structure that was centered around a demagogue, Nazi Germany lacked the resources of the Allied Powers.  The United States, Great Britian, and Soviet Union had an overwhelming advantage in sheer manpower, industrial capability, and natural resources.  

 

Of course things may have been different if Hitler hadn't been Hitler, but there would be no WW2 without Hitler.  So it's an exercise in futility.  Interesting to think about...but as a professor once scolded me, "what if, isn't history."



MrWuvems #25 Posted 15 July 2018 - 04:43 AM

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This thread is 100% forgetting that Stalin was going to invade German territory had Barbarossa not happened. 

Also that Sealion was cancelled not because of the lack of air superiority but it was a slapdash effort without proper equipment that would have never worked.



Panthergraf #26 Posted 15 July 2018 - 12:24 PM

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View PostWroclaw, on 14 July 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

 

the RAF was nearly dead. sure they inflicted more than they took but when that heinkle dropped his load on london by mistake there was potentially only 2 weeks worth of fighting left in them.

 

it dont matter how good your navy is when your homeland has total air superiority over it by the aggressor.

 

hitlers biggest mistake was hubris. first invading russia, & then as that was stalling declaring war on america just sealed it.

 

Air superiority can‘t carry troops across the channel, or defend your Invasion fleet at night (Brits had Radar) or at bad weather. 

 

The German surface fleet, esp. the few and ridiculously bad Destroyers left, was a non factor after the mauling of Weserübung (Norway). 



Panthergraf #27 Posted 15 July 2018 - 01:20 PM

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So, just for the fun of it. Let‘s strip the german Homeland 1941 from 10.000-12.000 8.8 Flak guns and their well trained crews and transfer them to the Eastern Front for ground support.

Wroclaw #28 Posted 16 July 2018 - 12:55 AM

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View PostPanthergraf, on 15 July 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

 

Air superiority can‘t carry troops across the channel, or defend your Invasion fleet at night (Brits had Radar) or at bad weather. 

 

The German surface fleet, esp. the few and ridiculously bad Destroyers left, was a non factor after the mauling of Weserübung (Norway). 

 

but its not about over-running the country with ground forces. its about pummeling them so they quit the fight.

 

what use is radar when you have no airforce left.

 

i know theres a lot of pride surrounding the resistance britian gave during the war, but they were very nearly broken & but for lucky breaks them quitting the fight was a very possible happening.


Edited by Wroclaw, 16 July 2018 - 12:59 AM.


test777777 #29 Posted 16 July 2018 - 10:17 AM

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View PostWroclaw, on 16 July 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

 

View PostWroclaw, on 16 July 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

 

but its not about over-running the country with ground forces. its about pummeling them so they quit the fight.

 

what use is radar when you have no airforce left.

 

i know theres a lot of pride surrounding the resistance britian gave during the war, but they were very nearly broken & but for lucky breaks them quitting the fight was a very possible happening.

The UK would need to be occupied by ground forces and it wouldn't be easy.  Pummeling them with bombs and what not would just push the population underground and they'd constantly be attempting to rebuild. The brits are a stubborn lot. Germany would have had to contend with Canadian and US forces would be doing their best to assist with such a  predicament too  so I don't think the sons and daughters of the UK would just go nope, roll over and turn their backs on the war effort. It would need to be really decisive and bombing the crap out of them wouldn't be enough.

The Americans would typically drop phenomenal amounts of explosive power on islands in the pacific prior to marines landing.   Despite that insane amount of firepower, the Japanese resistance, once the marines landed was strong. 

 In Europe there was plenty of resistance and subversion to the German war effort occurring in occupied countries too including the the Bailwicks of the Channel Islands. 

 

 


 

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Metalrodent #30 Posted 16 July 2018 - 06:46 PM

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View PostWroclaw, on 16 July 2018 - 12:55 AM, said:

 

but its not about over-running the country with ground forces. its about pummeling them so they quit the fight.

 

what use is radar when you have no airforce left.

 

i know theres a lot of pride surrounding the resistance britian gave during the war, but they were very nearly broken & but for lucky breaks them quitting the fight was a very possible happening.

 

Even had Britain itself fallen it's highly unlikely it just would have folded and the war ended, they would mostly likely become a Government in exile like much of Europe based in Canada or the US. The Royal Navy too would likely have gone either across the Atlantic or to the Far East (which ironically would have scuppered Japan's plans a bit).

 

Although another point worth noting about the idea of Britain being ground down, when you look at production figures Britain was actually producing more planes than Germany through 1940-43.


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Wroclaw #31 Posted 16 July 2018 - 08:05 PM

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View PostMetalrodent, on 16 July 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

 

Even had Britain itself fallen it's highly unlikely it just would have folded and the war ended.

 

im not saying the war would have ended suddenly. but britian was facing having to accept terms from hitler. without attacking russia & dividing his forces like that, & without easing up on destroying the RAF, britian would have ended up with no other option.

 

forcing them from quitting the war was a very real possibility. & its what hitler wanted. sealion was never going to go ahead.

 

if hitler held off from attacking russia for a year so he could stabilize the western front & send more to the east then it too could have ended very differently.



Wroclaw #32 Posted 16 July 2018 - 08:07 PM

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View Posttest777777, on 16 July 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

The UK would need to be occupied by ground forces and it wouldn't be easy. 

 

hitler was never going to.



Panthergraf #33 Posted 16 July 2018 - 08:36 PM

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Accept terms? By bombing? That didn‘t work out in a much larger scale by bombing Germany to shatters.

test777777 #34 Posted 17 July 2018 - 02:09 AM

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View PostWroclaw, on 17 July 2018 - 04:07 AM, said:

 

hitler was never going to.

 

​indeed, my comments were refuting the likelihood of it being a successful campaign or the English quitting the fight, should they have managed to gain air superiority and continued to bomb mainland England.

 

The campaign against Russia and the way that it was fought was probably Germany's down fall. 

but

Earlier on in the war, I do think the decision to gather the German forces before moving in and overrunning Dunkirk, which allowed the British to evacuate 100s of thousands of BEF and other allies who were later able to add strength to Britain's future campaign effectiveness in places like North Africa really hurt the Axis war effort and benefitted the Allied war effort beyond what was easily foreseeable.  I don't know how many of the evacuated BEF ended up fighting Rommel in North Africa prior to the American's being directly involved there but without the strength of those troops that were redeployed there a few months after the evacuation  Germany may have been successful in dominating the region and it's oil resources and logistical supply lines.  

 

Who knows what impact that would have had on the course of the war or future decisions made by all nations involved.


 

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Cannon x Fodder #35 Posted 17 July 2018 - 06:02 PM

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View PostPanthergraf, on 16 July 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Accept terms? By bombing? That didn‘t work out in a much larger scale by bombing Germany to shatters.

Yes, it actually did.  That was the whole point to Valkyrie.  The people involved knew that further resistance was futile and also knew that hitler would never seek terms of surrender because he was a delusional psychopath.  The only way they could salvage anything was to kill hitler and seek favorable terms.

 

Had they succeeded before the the Allies (excluding the soviets) found the camps, they might have been able to end the war without the harsh punishments they faced after ww1.  Instead, they failed and the rest is history.



SightlessRogue0 #36 Posted 18 July 2018 - 12:41 AM

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View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 13 July 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

 

 

Germany simply was not capable of maintaining warfare in the long term. Yes, there were mistakes that could have simply prolonged the inevitable but they were doomed from the start.

 

I think the same. Germany would have had to stop after Poland and take advantage of its strength and its political allies to negotiate. They would have increased their territory and canceled all the restrictions of 1918 while avoiding the World War. It would have been a victory.


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super_merel #37 Posted 18 July 2018 - 12:36 PM

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I agree, stop after Poland, and even then it was probably a matter of time before Stalin would try to take it for themselves. But lets not forget how much of a psychopath hitler was, it was never about territory alone. It was about untermenschen and übermenschen, about deathcamps and deportation. Such a thing would never have survived long term.

WW2 was a direct consequence of WW1 and the only way to win was to not start it, for all sides.

There was simply no way Germany could have ever won WW2, England could not be occupied (german navy was weak, logistical nightmare) Russia could not be occupied (to much resistance, logistical nightmare) even if they would have stopped after France the allies would not stand for it.



SightlessRogue0 #38 Posted 18 July 2018 - 08:34 PM

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But even without Hitler, the world had become a powder keg.

 

The German and Russian population had sunk on the dark side of politics: socialism for Germany, communism for Russians ... from then on it was only a matter of time.

Add to this a Mussolini wishing to restore to Italy the greatness of the ancient Rome (whose economy, for want of sufficient natural resources, rested essentially the domination of neighboring countries), a suffocated Japan wishing to appropriate oil resources and to taken with a stupid politico-religious current believing that Japan would be the country that would benefit most from a globalized chaos (chingon)

And the cherry on the cake .... the old democracy was stuck in a silly pacifism wave of their population preventing them from maintaining a minimal military balance and playing the role of referee against out-of-control many leftist government.


Edited by SightlessRogue0, 18 July 2018 - 08:37 PM.

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NSW Mntd Rifles #39 Posted 19 July 2018 - 12:17 PM

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It's interesting to me that many comments on this thread mention "England" as if Germany was only at war with part of the United Kingdom from 1 September 1939. The invasion of Poland resulted in Germany being at war with the British Empire: The United Kingdom plus four self-governing Dominions (Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa), India and the rest of the colonies. This represented a population of over 551million people - a far larger number than any of the other combatants. India provided the world's largest volunteer army to the fighting fronts in the Second World War. The steelmaking, mineralogical and industrial capacity of the Dominions alone was more than impressive. A German strategic analysis written in 1939 saw the empire as a very real threat. The fact that this Empire declared war on Germany in 1939 meant that Germany was on a time limit. The British Empire had no plans or stomach to capitulate, even if the United Kingdom had been invaded. The capacity of the British Empire can be demonstrated by the fact that, while facing off against the Afrika Korps in the Western Desert in 1941, the Empire had the capacity to launch simultaneous invasions of Syria and Iraq, while also securing most of the continent of Africa. At the same time the Empire had tens of thousands of troops in Asia and the South West Pacific. It also had a massive scheme channelling trainee aircrew from across the world to Canada and on to operational roles in Great Britain.

 

Germany's position in 1939 was no different to Japan's in 1941. Japan knew that they could not win a war against the United States and other Pacific Powers, but could only hope to secure a perimeter to be held long enough to negotiate a favourable outcome. In reality this is how Germany's war went. The Nazi regime went to war in 1939 with little capacity to wage a global strategic war. They were fortunate to be able to gain control of most of Europe in 1940-1941 but that was the extent of its viable conquests. The entry of the United States (effectively from 1940) meant that Germany was at war with the entire English speaking world. The death embrace with an unconquerable USSR really put the icing on the cake. Germany was on the defensive from 1942 and the clock was ticking. I don't think that all of the what ifs in the world could have changed the outcome.


Edited by NSW Mntd Rifles, 19 July 2018 - 12:18 PM.


Otis Z Firefly #40 Posted 19 July 2018 - 12:23 PM

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I wish could give you more than one up-vote for that NSW.
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