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Altruism vs. Egoism in WoT

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Sgt Becket FEAR #1 Posted 14 July 2018 - 08:33 AM

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Good morning everyone :)

 

I'm on my third cup of coffee so I cannot help but think far too deep into this game.

 

I was looking through some old screenshots of Rosa's best matches and I noticed a trend. She does her best when she is going off on her own rather than when she is being a proper teammate.

 

I find this strange because Rosa's fighting style has her deliberately going into harm's way for the sake of her team. However, those matches ended with her fighting for the sake of her own survival. Her R-W at Berlin, for example...I watched the video of the match and the only time that Rosa was ever near another Green was when she ran back to spawn to rescue a Tier 8 Heavy that had not started playing yet from a Light that had run through the lines yolo-style.

 

I do try to be a good teammate but Rosa hates to lose. She has the ammo to put out 14K Damage...so long as her 88 stays in action, no match is hopeless. However, as a Heavy, she also has to put herself in harm's way at the front for her team's sake. 

 

So, Rosa has to be altruistic to properly do her job as a Heavy, but, to be as competitive as possible, she has to be egotistic and fight for herself in the heat of the moment.

 

What do you guys think of that?

 

Is it possible to be competitive while being a purely selfless teammate?

 

In the end, do we actually have to be just selfish enough in matches to give us a competitive edge that pushes us to play better?

 

Just in case you are curious about the matches that I was looking at:

 

Spoiler
Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 


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Fumbled Time #2 Posted 14 July 2018 - 09:22 AM

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It is definitely an aggressive high stakes , high rewards, high loss path. I find myself always leaning to the weak side and many times it ends in death, But when it works it is undeniable a great feeling of achievement and growth (Gittn Gooder).

And in a rare occasion another green hears your plea’s and answers the call.

I say good on you for the achievements :great:

F4ST-D3V1LS #3 Posted 14 July 2018 - 09:32 AM

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I used to check a lot of service records after a battle.
But seeing no other than 44% win rates and negative kd's i realised there is no team to speak of and to do well i have to rely on my own and certainly not on the greens.

Sounds elitist, i know...
But see for yourself, check service records and be amazed (horrified)

So, no... You're not selfish by focusing on your own performance.
Better yet, use the green muppets for cover and sacrifice them whenever you can to secure a win because "they" certainly won't do it for you.

#nomercyforthegreens

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Sgt Becket FEAR #4 Posted 14 July 2018 - 09:52 AM

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View PostFumbled Time, on 14 July 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

It is definitely an aggressive high stakes , high rewards, high loss path. I find myself always leaning to the weak side and many times it ends in death, But when it works it is undeniable a great feeling of achievement and growth (Gittn Gooder).

And in a rare occasion another green hears your plea’s and answers the call.

I say good on you for the achievements :great:

 

Thanks :)

 

View PostF4ST-D3V1LS, on 14 July 2018 - 04:32 AM, said:

I used to check a lot of service records after a battle.
But seeing no other than 44% win rates and negative kd's i realised there is no team to speak of and to do well i have to rely on my own and certainly not on the greens.

Sounds elitist, i know...
But see for yourself, check service records and be amazed (horrified)

So, no... You're not selfish by focusing on your own performance.
Better yet, use the green muppets for cover and sacrifice them whenever you can to secure a win because "they" certainly won't do it for you.

#nomercyforthegreens

 

Well, the way I see it is that I can only directly affect my own performance.

 

So, just let them do them and adjust in battle accordingly.

 


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Sgt Becket FEAR #5 Posted 14 July 2018 - 10:39 AM

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LOL I post this and my first match today in Abigail I get top player because of all the assists my teammates gave me

 

:D


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ThermalStone #6 Posted 14 July 2018 - 11:27 AM

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If you are a good player, your hitpoints are more valuable to the team because you will spend them wisely.  Your gun is more valuable to the team because you will do more damage.  Why sacrifice them to protect a player who will probably not be able to make use of your gift?

I'm not stealing kills, I'm handing out Confederate medals.

 


STUART SHERMAN #7 Posted 14 July 2018 - 11:32 AM

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My take is that you do what is right for your team depending on the tank you are driving, but you must look out for number 1 at the same time or your gun will be lost to your team. Altruism, with a side of ego?

I was once given the advice that your team is there to die for you, and while that is true you cannot win a 1 v15 match, so the team's survival is important to you as well.

My own Tiger I, Colleen, is happy to be a part of the wolf pack when platooning, but once she gets the scent of the reds it's game on. Keep up if you can!

Thank you again for inspiring me to reacquire her and your excellent Guide for Tigers. 

 


                                   

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Sgt Becket FEAR #8 Posted 14 July 2018 - 11:48 AM

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View PostSTUART SHERMAN, on 14 July 2018 - 06:32 AM, said:

My take is that you do what is right for your team depending on the tank you are driving, but you must look out for number 1 at the same time or your gun will be lost to your team. Altruism, with a side of ego?

I was once given the advice that your team is there to die for you, and while that is true you cannot win a 1 v15 match, so the team's survival is important to you as well.

My own Tiger I, Colleen, is happy to be a part of the wolf pack when platooning, but once she gets the scent of the reds it's game on. Keep up if you can!

Thank you again for inspiring me to reacquire her and your excellent Guide for Tigers. 

 

 

Yeah that sounds about right.

 

It goes both ways...Rosa uses them and they use her...so no hard feelings (at least for me).

 

Aw, I am thrilled that you and Colleen are getting along ^_^

 

Good hunting :honoring:


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Very Classy #9 Posted 14 July 2018 - 03:13 PM

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I can't tell you how many flanks I've won because I recognized a stalemate and was willing to eat a shell (or two). Sometimes, the biggest hurdle is that your teammates are so unwilling to get damaged that they don't use their guns. My take is HP is a resource to be used. So... in that regard, I consider my play exceeding altruistic.

However, if I see a flank failing and I'm mobile, I will leave my teammates to die. In that regard, I'm all about me.



pr0fit0fcanabis #10 Posted 14 July 2018 - 03:20 PM

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I am an almost complete lone wolf player in this game for very practical reasons, the impracticality of coordinating team work when no one works off the same playbook.  Their are rare instances when someone on green seems to be running the same play and team work happens.  Otherwise my job is to read the dispersion of my team on the map and find an optimal location for my tank.  



Sgt Becket FEAR #11 Posted 14 July 2018 - 03:36 PM

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View PostVery Classy, on 14 July 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

I can't tell you how many flanks I've won because I recognized a stalemate and was willing to eat a shell (or two). Sometimes, the biggest hurdle is that your teammates are so unwilling to get damaged that they don't use their guns. My take is HP is a resource to be used. So... in that regard, I consider my play exceeding altruistic.

However, if I see a flank failing and I'm mobile, I will leave my teammates to die. In that regard, I'm all about me.

 

Well, I always have to remind myself to keep the end game in mind.

 

 


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Sgt Becket FEAR #12 Posted 14 July 2018 - 03:40 PM

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View Postpr0fit0fcanabis, on 14 July 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

I am an almost complete lone wolf player in this game for very practical reasons, the impracticality of coordinating team work when no one works off the same playbook.  Their are rare instances when someone on green seems to be running the same play and team work happens.  Otherwise my job is to read the dispersion of my team on the map and find an optimal location for my tank.  

 

Indeed, I actually enjoy being a lone wolf more myself.

 

Redeployment is what Rosa spends most matches doing anyway and it is easier to do that alone.


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pr0fit0fcanabis #13 Posted 14 July 2018 - 04:15 PM

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View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 14 July 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

 

Indeed, I actually enjoy being a lone wolf more myself.

 

Redeployment is what Rosa spends most matches doing anyway and it is easier to do that alone.

I am increasingly realizing redeployment is even more important than I previously thought. Not busting your skull against a hard point and looking for a weak point is critical to playing well.  



Sgt Becket FEAR #14 Posted 14 July 2018 - 04:28 PM

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View Postpr0fit0fcanabis, on 14 July 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

I am increasingly realizing redeployment is even more important than I previously thought. Not busting your skull against a hard point and looking for a weak point is critical to playing well.  

 

What is with the whole "pocket" thing that fights are these days...

 

Hey, don't mind me, just gonna drive up behind you and pad my stats off you because your tunnel vision on those one or two Greens is super OP.

 

 


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Snorelacks #15 Posted 14 July 2018 - 06:56 PM

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Great question. I'd say it depends on the tank, how much health I have left, the stage of the game (beginning, mid or late) the recent performance of my "team mates" around me, etc. I have purposefully led a push when the team has been stalled, knowing I was going to take a hit or two, but also realizing that we had an overmatch that needed to be leveraged. Unfortunately, a few times I was the only one to push. This ties to my comment about what part of the game, how much health I have and what have the "team mates" been doing.


 

I think in many instances it most important to be pragmatic (not necessarily selfish) with your tank's health given that the only thing you can control is your own play.



 


Fightomonkey #16 Posted 14 July 2018 - 07:24 PM

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This was a good question. As a 99.5% solo player, one of the most difficult things I've had to learn was to sense when teammates can be relied upon to push a certain flank/pocket of tanks. If you're in a three man platoon, obviously it's not difficult to coordinate fire, isolate tanks, and try to hold and bring down at least one flank. This appears to be a crucial tactic. In several of his videos, Lemmingrush notes that winning one flank is the key to at least giving yourself a chance to win the battle. He also goes on to say that ROFL stomps occur when multiple flanks fall and teams are surrounded and take fire from multiple directions. And I had never directly thought about that before, even though it's a simple idea and makes sense. So. To return to my original statement, for myself I've found that what generally works best is to help teammates who appear actively engaged in the battle and who appear to have a chance of winning/holding a certain flank/critical area.


Edited by Fightomonkey, 14 July 2018 - 07:32 PM.


ThunderChickenX #17 Posted 14 July 2018 - 07:31 PM

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View Postpr0fit0fcanabis, on 14 July 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

I am increasingly realizing redeployment is even more important than I previously thought. Not busting your skull against a hard point and looking for a weak point is critical to playing well.  

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Sgt Becket FEAR #18 Posted 14 July 2018 - 07:55 PM

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View PostSnorelacks, on 14 July 2018 - 01:56 PM, said:

Great question. I'd say it depends on the tank, how much health I have left, the stage of the game (beginning, mid or late) the recent performance of my "team mates" around me, etc. I have purposefully led a push when the team has been stalled, knowing I was going to take a hit or two, but also realizing that we had an overmatch that needed to be leveraged. Unfortunately, a few times I was the only one to push. This ties to my comment about what part of the game, how much health I have and what have the "team mates" been doing.


 

I think in many instances it most important to be pragmatic (not necessarily selfish) with your tank's health given that the only thing you can control is your own play.

 

Ah good point...yes I believe that it has to be circumstantial. 

 

View PostFightomonkey, on 14 July 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

This was a good question. As a 99.5% solo player, one of the most difficult things I've had to learn was to sense when teammates can be relied upon to push a certain flank/pocket of tanks. If you're in a three man platoon, obviously it's not difficult to coordinate fire, isolate tanks, and try to hold and bring down at least one flank. This appears to be a crucial tactic. In several of his videos, Lemmingrush notes that winning one flank is the key to at least giving yourself a chance to win the battle. He also goes on to say that ROFL stomps occur when multiple flanks fall and teams are surrounded and take fire from multiple directions. And I had never directly thought about that before, even though it's a simple idea and makes sense. So. To return to my original statement, for myself I've found that what generally works best is to help teammates who appear actively engaged in the battle and who appear to have a chance of winning/holding a certain flank/critical area.

 

LOL it is strangest little combinations that Rosa finds herself in because of that.

 

Often times, it really turns into the Odd Couple or something by the end of the match xDDD


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steelheadclan #19 Posted 14 July 2018 - 08:02 PM

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80% of games it’s 1 vs 29 in solo play

 


Sgt Becket FEAR #20 Posted 14 July 2018 - 08:07 PM

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View Poststeelheadclan, on 14 July 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

80% of games it’s 1 vs 29 in solo play

 

100% :P

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