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Should we have Michael Wittmann represented in World of Tanks?

Poll Wittmann Michael Wittmann Tiger 1331 Citadel

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Poll: Should Michael Wittmann be represented in WoT? (51 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 5 battles in order to participate this poll.

Should Michael Wittmann be represented in World of Tanks?

  1. Yes, because politics aside, he was one of the WW2 most decorated tank aces. (32 votes [62.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 62.75%

  2. No, because he was a member of SS and it would be a promotion of Nazism. (13 votes [25.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.49%

  3. Whatever, I don't really care. (6 votes [11.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.76%

  4. I don't really know who is Michael Wittmann. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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Jope2209 #1 Posted 10 August 2018 - 06:25 PM

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With Citadel Tiger introduced to WoT recently, one more interesting (or perhaps questionable) topic appeared. New Tiger tank is presented under Dark Horse Comics franchise and it would've been just another Tiger reskin if there wasn't for the decals on the turret. The decals on the turret of the Tiger say 1331, and WG presented it as a Tiger I engaged in ''Operation Zitadelle''. This is quoted from ''Panzer Ace'' website:

 

''At the end of May, 4th Company was renamed to the 13th schwere (heavy) Company, reporting to SS-Hauptsturführer Kling. The prefix number 13 was painted on the turrets of all of 13th Company’s freshly-camouflaged vehicles; as commander of the third platoon, Michael Wittmann’s Tiger was designated number 1331 – 13 for the Company, 3 for the platoon, and the final 1 for the position of platoon commander.''

 

This in short lines, means we have a Tiger I commanded by Michael Wittmann, famous WW2 tank ace. Here is how it's usualy presented on various sources:

 

 

There was a Wittmann's medal in WoT earlier (so I have been told by veteran players), which was awarded for 7 killed tanks in WoT, but it was renamed to Devastator medal.

 

Hence, short poll. What is your opinion on this matter?

 


The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25

Poll - Choose your least preferred map (removed maps* included, Nomonhan map added to Poll)


Badfaith PRIEST #2 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:04 PM

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If history is blotted out because it isnt politically correct to speak of it, then we are doomed to repeat it again. To forget Fascism (authoritative socialism) is asking the next Hitler to rise during financial and political chaos. They are already not teaching WW II holocaust crimes in schools instead they pain the US as murderers for using the atomic bomb. I think it a shame this isnt being discussed more in forums. While it may get you in trouble in certain circles, to bury your head and disregard facts of our past dishonors those that died, whatever side they fought for. True judgement lies in wait for those guilty of crimes against humanity the rest is just a date in time. I vote yes.

Thrillhelm #3 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:10 PM

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If so, have Otto Carius for the Tiger 217 and Wittmann for a Jagdtiger. I got told you cannot have Wittmann as a name for your tanker because of Michael Wittmann's SS past. Carius however is even a name the game can generate if you want a new crew member (they also have Severloh after the machine-gunner Heinrich Severloh who claimed to have killed 2000 and more US soldiers at D-Day).

 

While the game can have fictional heroes from Germany (Karl Kraft, Karl Staupe) they cannot have real-life Ace tankers from Germany it seems.



Jope2209 #4 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:16 PM

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View PostThrillhelm, on 10 August 2018 - 07:10 PM, said:

If so, have Otto Carius for the Tiger 217 and Wittmann for a Jagdtiger. I got told you cannot have Wittmann as a name for your tanker because of Michael Wittmann's SS past. Carius however is even a name the game can generate if you want a new crew member (they also have Severloh after the machine-gunner Heinrich Severloh who claimed to have killed 2000 and more US soldiers at D-Day).

 

While the game can have fictional heroes from Germany (Karl Kraft, Karl Staupe) they cannot have real-life Ace tankers from Germany it seems.

 

That's really awkward, because you can have names of other known Nazi characters, like Eichmann for instance ( I have seen some really ''funny'' GT's)

Edited by Jope2209, 10 August 2018 - 07:17 PM.

The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25

Poll - Choose your least preferred map (removed maps* included, Nomonhan map added to Poll)


SGT Rock 1963 #5 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:18 PM

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Kurt Knispel was the top scoring ace in ww2, With 168 kills and 35 more unconfirmed. But wittmans 20+ kills in 15 minutes, Was his call to fame, Destroying the whole column to just drive casually away. Was 2 or 3 more allied light tanks hiding in town. Cant say I blamed them. On topic they weren't just german army officers. They were the worst SS commanders in the nazi army. Search Malady massacre during the dd invasion. With Panzer commander Piefer. Following SS orders of no prisoners. Which was standing orders for 90% of the captured territories, Civilian populations and that was if they complied.  But to hide it does nothing. To remember it should be taught, Not erased.


Jope2209 #6 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:30 PM

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View PostSGT Rock 1963, on 10 August 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

Kurt Knispel was the top scoring ace in ww2, With 168 kills and 35 more unconfirmed. But wittmans 20+ kills in 15 minutes, Was his call to fame, Destroying the whole column to just drive casually away. Was 2 or 3 more allied light tanks hiding in town. Cant say I blamed them.

 

People mostly remember and know about Villers-Bocage. Yes, I agree that would be Wittmann's ''trademark''. But he has spent most of this career on Eastern Front and he was decorated by Adolf hitler in person on at least two ocassions.

One of Wittmann's Career lines says this:

''14.01.1944 Awarded the Knight's Cross (Das Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes) after halting Russian attack near Sherepki.''
''30.01.1944 Awarded the Oakleaves (Das Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub) for destroying over 60 enemy tanks in less than a month.''


Edited by Jope2209, 10 August 2018 - 07:31 PM.

The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25

Poll - Choose your least preferred map (removed maps* included, Nomonhan map added to Poll)


Badfaith PRIEST #7 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:48 PM

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View PostSGT Rock 1963, on 10 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

Kurt Knispel was the top scoring ace in ww2, With 168 kills and 35 more unconfirmed. But wittmans 20+ kills in 15 minutes, Was his call to fame, Destroying the whole column to just drive casually away. Was 2 or 3 more allied light tanks hiding in town. Cant say I blamed them. On topic they weren't just german army officers. They were the worst SS commanders in the nazi army. Search Malady massacre during the dd invasion. With Panzer commander Piefer. Following SS orders of no prisoners. Which was standing orders for 90% of the captured territories, Civilian populations and that was if they complied.  But to hide it does nothing. To remember it should be taught, Not erased.

 

Americans did some of the same things, but it was often overlooked and sweep under the rug. They did it in Nam too, with little more than a slap on the wrist. Nothing new under the sun, so it is said.

SGT Rock 1963 #8 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:51 PM

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View PostJope2209, on 10 August 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

 

People mostly remember and know about Villers-Bocage. Yes, I agree that would be Wittmann's ''trademark''. But he has spent most of this career on Eastern Front and he was decorated by Adolf hitler in person on at least two ocassions.

One of Wittmann's Career lines says this:

''14.01.1944 Awarded the Knight's Cross (Das Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes) after halting Russian attack near Sherepki.''
''30.01.1944 Awarded the Oakleaves (Das Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub) for destroying over 60 enemy tanks in less than a month.''

 

The only medal Kurt Knispel never recieved I know. But regardless He was the #1 undisputed tank ace of ww2. Im very aware of Whittmans record and awards, He is a good #2. Whether you like it or not. Tank aces are about kills, Knispei is almost double the competition. Regardless of decorations, He sported a beard and shaggy hair, Which was frowned upon by the ss. The only reason he didnt get imprisoned was his track record in kills. Some say it was his defiance to the SS. Anyone say "Oddball" right now, Oh yeah negative waves baby. Whittman didnt win the battle of VB alone either. He lead a column of 5 tigers, He is credited with the most kills that day. He was a nazi poster boy for good reason, But not the best. 


IBROX 04 #9 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:07 PM

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Just because he's a hero of all Nazi fanboys. Doesn't bother me . 

 

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SGT Rock 1963 #10 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:15 PM

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View PostBadfaith PRIEST, on 10 August 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

 

Americans did some of the same things, but it was often overlooked and sweep under the rug. They did it in Nam too, with little more than a slap on the wrist. Nothing new under the sun, so it is said.

Every war has its criminals thats a fact. The difference with the nazis was it was procedure, Thats no secret. They wanted the land thats all. They already had the people. Read anywhere in the old testament. The Jewish armies wiped out every living sole. Of every village they conquered, Sometimes preteens were spared as slaves, Sometimes. Joshua and David are good references. You can say anyting about the allied war atrocities you want, None were so efficient or systematic and designed, For strictly killing a population.  As the German and Japanese armies of ww2. Being forced to dig 5 15 ft x20 ft x 200 ft pits, Just to have 60,000 people lined up naked,  Waiting to be told to crawl in over warm dead bodies.stacked on top of each other, To be shot in the head, So the next group of people, Could crawl in for their turn. They had them crawl in head to toe, For maximum efficiency, The architectof that idea got a medal. The whole time the women and girls are being continually raped. And the toddlers standing in line get therir skulls bashed in, Right in front of the their being raped sisters and moms. Then their tossed on the body pile. Whole cities this was done in, Google the Warsaw massacre, Were they mg and bayoneted 500 children and killed 100,000 civilians, In 3 days. When they ran out of bullets they lined them up, Next to walls and ran over them with 5 ton trucks, Or bashed their skulls with hammers, Facts. It should be taught in schools until the end of time. Not made a secret and a crime, By the guilty and collaborators. 



IBROX 04 #11 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:23 PM

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View PostSGT Rock 1963, on 10 August 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Every war has its criminals thats a fact. The difference with the nazis was it was procedure, Thats no secret. They wanted the land thats all. They already had the people. Read anywhere in the old testament. The Jewish armies wiped out every living sole. Of every village they conquered, Sometimes preteens were spared as slaves, Sometimes. Joshua and David are good references. You can say anyting about the allied war atrocities you want, None were so efficient or systematic and designed, For strictly killing a population.  As the German and Japanese armies of ww2. Being forced to dig 5 15 ft x20 ft x 200 ft pits, Just to have 60,000 people lined up naked,  Waiting to stacked on top of each other, To be shot in the head, So the next people could crawl in for their turn. The whole time the women and girls are being continually raped. And the toddlers standing in line get therir skulls bashed in, Right in front of the their being raped sisters and moms. Then their tossed on the body pile. Whole cities this was done in, Google the Warsaw massacre, Were they mg and bayoneted 500 children and killed 100,000 civilians, In 3 days. When they ran out of bullets they lined them up, Next to walls and ran over them with 5 ton trucks, Or bashed their skulls with hammers, Facts. It should be taught in schools until the end of time. Not made a secret and a crime, By the guilty and collaborators. 

 

einsatzgruppen,  think that's how you spell it. 

 

Think this thread will get locked. 


 

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Jope2209 #12 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:33 PM

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View PostIBROX 04, on 10 August 2018 - 08:23 PM, said:

 

einsatzgruppen,  think that's how you spell it. 

 

Think this thread will get locked. 

 

Well, it wasn't my intention to promote any ''-isms''.. The poll is simply about one person, Michael Wittmann, and we have his tank already represented in game in all but its commanders name.

 

I have no doubts regarding the crimes commited in the name of totalitarian ideologies, Fascism, Nazism or Communism. But here we have one tank commander, Michael Wittmann and the question is, Can he be represented in game about tanks without bearing the heavy burden of SS or LSSAH?


The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25

Poll - Choose your least preferred map (removed maps* included, Nomonhan map added to Poll)


IBROX 04 #13 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:41 PM

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View PostJope2209, on 10 August 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

 

Well, it wasn't my intention to promote any ''-isms''.. The poll is simply about one person, Michael Wittmann, and we have his tank already represented in game in all but his commanders name.

 

I have no doubts regarding the crimes commited in the name of totalitarian ideologies, Fascism, Nazism or Communism. But here we have one tank commander, Michael Wittmann and the question is, Can he be represented in game about tanks without bearing the heavy burden of SS or LSSAH?

 

I would have thought the same. When I first seen the citadel I thought " interesting" for obvious reasons. Especially since they took or changed the Wittmann description on the medal in game ages ago. 

 

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ATHFjman18 #14 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:49 PM

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TBH they can rid of the dumb “1331” emblems on the Citadel Tiger and give us that sweet camo scheme from the picture above and I’d probably be more inclined to buy the tank!

SGT Rock 1963 #15 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:57 PM

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View PostIBROX 04, on 10 August 2018 - 04:23 PM, said:

 

einsatzgruppen,  think that's how you spell it. 

 

Think this thread will get locked. 

 

Your exactly right about the name thanks. Its also why I didnt say the name.  This ss army group was ex-convicts and undesirables, Had a direct bearing as to why so meny ss soldiers, Were instantly excuted on capture by, All allied forces. Every man in europe rolled up his sleeves, Looking for that ss tattoo.  In civies or uniform, Didn't matter.


IBROX 04 #16 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:07 PM

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View PostSGT Rock 1963, on 10 August 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

 

Your exactly right about the name thanks. Its also why I didnt say the name.  These ss ex-convicts, Had a direct bearing as to why so meny ss soldiers, Were instantly excuted on capture by, All allied forces. Every man in europe rolled up his right sleeve, In civies or uniform, Didn't matter.

 

Probably why so many got away with it, the Nazis let them kill each other and stood watching and yet the Auxiliaries probably thought they had to or the Nazis would kill them next. 

 

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Capn Ratchet45 #17 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:19 PM

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View PostBadfaith PRIEST, on 10 August 2018 - 07:04 PM, said:

If history is blotted out because it isnt politically correct to speak of it, then we are doomed to repeat it again. To forget Fascism (authoritative socialism) is asking the next Hitler to rise during financial and political chaos. They are already not teaching WW II holocaust crimes in schools instead they pain the US as murderers for using the atomic bomb. I think it a shame this isnt being discussed more in forums. While it may get you in trouble in certain circles, to bury your head and disregard facts of our past dishonors those that died, whatever side they fought for. True judgement lies in wait for those guilty of crimes against humanity the rest is just a date in time. I vote yes.

well put...never forget...



SGT Rock 1963 #18 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:32 PM

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View PostIBROX 04, on 10 August 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

 

Probably why so many got away with it, the Nazis let them kill each other and stood watching and yet the people probably thought they had to or the Nazis would kill them next.  

 

They were german ss soldiers in uniform, Even the commanders were convicts. Warsaw was just an example. They did the same thing all the way to Moscow. Then they got smashed, The red army retribution  with its mongol convict troops, May have been just as brutal. But it wasnt premeditated, It was retribution. They weren't the aggressors.  What a terrible price the expelled german people paid, All over Europe after the surrender. As the world stood bye and watched. 20 million german civilian deaths, Killed by the european people,  Another 5 million soldiers and civilians, In Eisenhowers detention camps, Throughout Germany of disease, winter time elements exposure and starvation.  The biggest crime, Was allowing hitler to re-arm. I've never figured that out, It wasnt a secret. He built the biggest army in Europe at that time. I mean even if that wasnt a give away. 1500 Aircraft in the luftwaffe (hello), And he had 300 uboats, That was a couple violations, Not even talking his Dreadnoughts, He wasn't allowed anything bigger than a cruiser. But he had super cruisers before his dreadnoughts. 


SGT Rock 1963 #19 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:44 PM

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View PostJope2209, on 10 August 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

 

Well, it wasn't my intention to promote any ''-isms''.. The poll is simply about one person, Michael Wittmann, and we have his tank already represented in game in all but his commanders name.

 

I have no doubts regarding the crimes commited in the name of totalitarian ideologies, Fascism, Nazism or Communism. But here we have one tank commander, Michael Wittmann and the question is, Can he be represented in game about tanks without bearing the heavy burden of SS or LSSAH?

I agree yes he should be ingame, As I stated in my first post. Its the 1st voting option, I dont agree with so I didnt vote. Hes a devoted nazi, I wish to vote for him as such, For what he was, Not a whitewashed choir boy, With no political affiliations. Thats the problem with history, Everyone wants to silence it, Unless of course your Vernon Von Braun. Another crime, I have to be honest.



IBROX 04 #20 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:50 PM

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View PostSGT Rock 1963, on 10 August 2018 - 10:32 PM, said:

 

What a terrible price the expelled german people paid, All over Europe after the surrender. As the world stood bye and watched. 20 million german civilian deaths, Another 5 million soldiers and civilians, In Eisenhowers detention camps, Throughout Germany of disease, winter time elements exposure and starvation.  The biggest crime, Was allowing hitler to re-arm. I've never figured that out, It wasnt a secret. He built the biggest army in Europe at that time. I mean even if that wasnt a give away. 1500 Aircraft in the luftwaffe (hello), And he had 300 uboats, That was a couple violations, Not even talking his Dreadnoughts, He wasn't allowed anything bigger than a cruiser. But he had super cruisers before his dreadnoughts. 

 

That be the British governments fault at the time, Goes back to the royal navy and we ruled the world and invincible. It was all show at the time. 

 

Aaron William Murray                    Forever in our hearts

 

 

 





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