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Should we have Michael Wittmann represented in World of Tanks?

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Poll: Should Michael Wittmann be represented in WoT? (74 members have cast votes)

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Should Michael Wittmann be represented in World of Tanks?

  1. Yes, because politics aside, he was one of the WW2 most decorated tank aces. (49 votes [66.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.22%

  2. No, because he was a member of SS and it would be a promotion of Nazism. (17 votes [22.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.97%

  3. Whatever, I don't really care. (8 votes [10.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.81%

  4. I don't really know who is Michael Wittmann. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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Corporal Derpy #21 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:56 PM

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I'm going on a big no.

Because if you do one, people immediately want the next, and then the next.

 

As it stands right now we have the Tiger I, Tiger 131, Hammer, Heavy Tank No. VI and Citadel. Count WS too and you have another with Petit Tigre.

What we really don't need are even more Tigers, or generally any consider reskin of the same tank done so many times like with the E4 Shermans because you aren't getting new tanks, nor even really any different 'stats' or playstyles. Since you simply end up with a whole bunch of tanks that are completely identical in anything but name and some visuals.

If you add them in, do you base them off the Tiger I's stats, the Hammers, what about 131's or No. VI and Citadel, or do you make even more random assortment of stats for them with maybe another different amount of penetration on the L/56. Do the tracks on the lower plate count as spaced armour or simply be visuals?

 

 

While I understand that many with an interest in the historical aspect want the tanks that were driven by iconic commanders during WWII. I do not think we should ever have such a thing happen because it just encourages more reskinning of TT Vehicles.


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IBROX 04 #22 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:04 PM

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Tell you the truth it's all bull shyte. What was happening in Europe, was different from what was happening in the US in the 1930's . Would be faster if people read history than taking shyte nearly 90 years later. Was a different world back then. Plus what happened in the 30's and then the 40's ain't nothing new , we as a planet and as people have been repeating history for quite some time. 

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SGT Rock 1963 #23 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:28 PM

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View PostIBROX 04, on 10 August 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

Tell you the truth it's all bull shyte. What was happening in Europe, was different from what was happening in the US in the 1930's . Would be faster if people read history than taking shyte nearly 90 years later. Was a different world back then. Plus what happened in the 30's and then the 40's ain't nothing new , we as a planet and as people have been repeating history for quite some time. 

 

Your right I'm 55, Both my grandfathers served 1 in US army in Europe. One in the Marine Corp in the Pacific, They both passed in 2011 and 2016. My heroes. Once the us entered ww2, American 1930's  kkk and US nazi movement was soon a memory. It never made it to 1943. They were beaten, imprisoned and murdered. The few that remained weren't as loud, As the previous groups. But I dont agree with you about 90 years keep it hush hush. Out of sight out of mind. There are atrocities being commited right now. And no one is stopping it. Its completely unacceptable. In this technological wonder land, We live in, This is civilized? Women and children being slaughtered,enslaved, sold into sex trades and any other deviant idea you could imagine. in the Middle East, Africa, Europe, Asia, South America. India ect.

                                                                                                               

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IBROX 04 #24 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:55 PM

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View PostSGT Rock 1963, on 10 August 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

 

Your right I'm 55, Both my grandfathers served 1 in US army in Europe. One in the Marine Corp in the Pacific, They both passed in 2011 and 2016. My heroes. Once the us entered ww2, American 1930's and kkk, nazi movement was soon a memory. It never made it to 1943. They were beaten, imprisoned and murdered. The few that remained weren't as loud, As the previous groups. But I dont agree with you about 90 years keep it hush hush. Out of sight out of mind. There are atrocities being commited right now. And no one is stopping it. Its completely unacceptable. In this technological wonder land, We live in, This is civilized? Women and children being slaughtered in Middle East, Africa, Europe, Asia, South America. 

 

Aye I remember my old pop talking about his brothers who died he spoke Italian, I never understood. He was a prison of war and meet my nan . That's my mother's side , my father's side , my granddad lost all but one of his brother's. He missed them every day and was angry all the time. Yeah it was a different time. I had to grow up with people calling me names and I became hard from it. 

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YCS-186 #25 Posted 11 August 2018 - 12:54 AM

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No I don't think he should be represented in WoT, and it has to do with how WG markets and portrays the premium tanks and unique crews they make. I'd tolerate it if WG used the opportunity as an actual history lesson, maybe adding info about the SS and the atrocities they committed against civilians to the tank description so people could see what kind of guy this tank ace was and what he believed in. However, WG doesn't sell history lessons, they sell "hero tanks" commanded by "hero crews" who are portrayed in a positive and heroic manner.

 

Any attempt by WG to represent Wittmann in-game would lead to an over-glorification of his battle exploits while sweeping everything else under the rug. WG doesn't want to tell the history of these people, they just want to sell more tanks, and they know that acknowledging a person's membership in a heavily militarized death cult (SS) that systematically murdered millions of innocents will put a huge damper on sales. Just look at how they marketed one of his tanks, Tiger 1331. No acknowledgement whatsoever of the man who commanded it or his history. They even tried to pass it off as just another comic tank in order to keep it under the radar. There's no reason to think they won't similarly whitewash the man himself if they decide to sell another of his Tigers with him as its "hero crew" *gag*.

 

Yes, the SS and its members should be discussed. However, they should not be condoned or glorified, and that's exactly what WG's marketing department would do to increase sales.


Edited by YCS-186, 11 August 2018 - 12:55 AM.

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SGT Rock 1963 #26 Posted 11 August 2018 - 01:02 AM

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View PostIBROX 04, on 10 August 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

 

Aye I remember my old pop talking about his brothers who died he spoke Italian, I never understood. He was a prison of war and meet my nan . That's my mother's side , my father's side , my granddad lost all but one of his brother's. He missed them every day and was angry all the time. Yeah it was a different time. I had to grow up with people calling me names and I became hard from it. 

 

:honoring: +1 Sir.

                                                                                                               

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Broken Digger #27 Posted 11 August 2018 - 03:37 AM

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Voted yes, because you should be able to recognise and respect a persons skill without bringing whatever ideology or /ism they fough for into the equation. 

But also agree with Derpy about the amount of reskins.... maybe sell “camouflage” patterns for tanks instead of a whole new tank?

It would alleviate the flood of reskins with identical stats, and heck, I’d be more inclined to pay for a skin pack for a specific tank rather than buy another tank with identical stats to one I already own. As long as it was period correct and looked good I’d be throwing my wallet at the game. As an off shoot, include a battle damaged pack, Krafts Panther is one of the best looking tanks in the game, get more skins (historic ones) like that. 

Could always put the option of turning them off for people that don’t want to see them.



Jope2209 #28 Posted 11 August 2018 - 08:14 AM

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View PostYCS-186, on 11 August 2018 - 12:54 AM, said:

No I don't think he should be represented in WoT, and it has to do with how WG markets and portrays the premium tanks and unique crews they make. I'd tolerate it if WG used the opportunity as an actual history lesson, maybe adding info about the SS and the atrocities they committed against civilians to the tank description so people could see what kind of guy this tank ace was and what he believed in. However, WG doesn't sell history lessons, they sell "hero tanks" commanded by "hero crews" who are portrayed in a positive and heroic manner.

 

Any attempt by WG to represent Wittmann in-game would lead to an over-glorification of his battle exploits while sweeping everything else under the rug. WG doesn't want to tell the history of these people, they just want to sell more tanks, and they know that acknowledging a person's membership in a heavily militarized death cult (SS) that systematically murdered millions of innocents will put a huge damper on sales. Just look at how they marketed one of his tanks, Tiger 1331. No acknowledgement whatsoever of the man who commanded it or his history. They even tried to pass it off as just another comic tank in order to keep it under the radar. There's no reason to think they won't similarly whitewash the man himself if they decide to sell another of his Tigers with him as its "hero crew" *gag*.

 

Yes, the SS and its members should be discussed. However, they should not be condoned or glorified, and that's exactly what WG's marketing department would do to increase sales.

 

You're right about the nature of totalitarian ideologies and huge crimes against humanity commited under banners of Fascism, Nazism, Communism. No one has the right to justify what those ideologies did, that's not the issue I tried to raise with this poll here.

SS, LSSAH, NSDAP are all criminalised and forbidden in most countries, the leaders of those movements are trialed and sentenced to death (mostly). Wittmann was serving as an officer in LSSAH, which was an elite SS division, personal guards of Adolf Hitler himself. That can't be denied. My question was more directed to the person of Michael Wittmann himself. He was highly decorated tank ace of the WW2, one of the greatest tank commanders of the era. I have purely historical interest in that matter, since I love tanks, especially WW2 tanks. SInce he died in combat in France, before the end of the WW2, we can't possibly know if Wittmann himself would be trialed for any attrocities commited by the SS.

 

Of course having a SS member in a tank game we all love, carries a huge burden. We can easily fall into a trap of trivialisation of crimes commited by the organisation he was a part of. Wittmann as a person might not be responsible for any war crimes during his career as a tank commander, or perhaps I'm wrong.


 

The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25, M7, T-50

 

New updated poll - please take a minute and cast your votes for the least preferred map in rotation (2019)


Jope2209 #29 Posted 11 August 2018 - 08:24 AM

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Of course, monsters like Eichmann cannot be ''abolished'' in any way...People like this are responsible for heavy mortgage that was pressed upon whole German nation after the WW2..

 

''It was actually an achievement that was never matched before or since.''

  • About the deportation of more than 400 000 Jews from Hungary in several weeks as quoted in Eichmann Before Jerusalem by Bettina Stangneth (2015).

 

 


 

The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25, M7, T-50

 

New updated poll - please take a minute and cast your votes for the least preferred map in rotation (2019)


Capn Ratchet45 #30 Posted 11 August 2018 - 05:02 PM

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the snowflake society we live in will never let it happen...unfortunately you can't even play the devils advocate in a conversation with someone without being compared to the likes of Hitler. there is a time and place for things like race/sex/offensive jokes or costumes...and there are times to keep them to yourself...let's face it...there are veterans out there rolling in their graves right now knowing that we are playing a game where we kill each other in the very tanks they lost their lives in...and there are others who would be proud that they defended our right to do as we please

FromBravo2Kilo #31 Posted 12 August 2018 - 11:50 AM

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View PostBroken Digger, on 10 August 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

Voted yes, because you should be able to recognise and respect a persons skill without bringing whatever ideology or /ism they fough for into the equation.

But also agree with Derpy about the amount of reskins.... maybe sell “camouflage” patterns for tanks instead of a whole new tank?

It would alleviate the flood of reskins with identical stats, and heck, I’d be more inclined to pay for a skin pack for a specific tank rather than buy another tank with identical stats to one I already own. As long as it was period correct and looked good I’d be throwing my wallet at the game. As an off shoot, include a battle damaged pack, Krafts Panther is one of the best looking tanks in the game, get more skins (historic ones) like that.

Could always put the option of turning them off for people that don’t want to see them.

 

I voted the middle of the road.  Do I think WG will allow it?  No.  I'm I bother by the political overtone?  No.  I've read a lot on the subject of armored warfare in WWII.  And there is no avoiding the SS while doing so.  Wittmann did his job and did it well.  In my opinion he was a little too aggressive in his attack on the column, but made a decision and went forward.  He did have significant support and really could have punished more of the British forces.  Anyway.  There are many more on both sides that did a fantastic job as tankers.  History is always written by the winners and there is nothing to say that a some of the other tanker named awards didn't do something wrong (during that time period).  Atrocities were committed by both sides.  You can argue it, but can't deny it.


 

 

I do like the option of buying new skins.  Even add xp and silver bonus multipliers.  Give up the option to customize the number emblems (Whittmann's tank number used in the famous assault was 205).  Eventually we should see new tanks available for purchase in the next update, but be prepared for re-skins after the well dries up again.



 


NombieLord #32 Posted 12 August 2018 - 05:02 PM

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Wittmann was SS trash... not voting. It's obvious why he isn't included in the game. An actual real life, not made up comic book SS officer. He was a believer. If you want him in the game you might be watching too much Netflux
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Greywoolfe64 #33 Posted 13 August 2018 - 03:16 AM

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I vote we stop kicking up a fuss, because someone at WG may think it a good idea to change the Citadel, which will pee off those who bought it, me included. The typeface of the numbers are completely different from the actual machine, and that's how Dark Horse comics have got away with portraying the character, albeit indirectly, in the comic book. I don't want to log in to the game in a few day's time and see my Citadel replaced with any other mediocre tier VI or gold silver equivalent, because of all the fuss it's generating. We know who it's meant to be, because we are interested in the history of tank warfare, but the vast majority of players who play this game won't know, and to them it's just another cool looking tank from the comic they read.

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Knot3D #34 Posted 13 August 2018 - 10:34 AM

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As a citizen of a neighbour country to Germany I am inclined to vote NO. 

The war was dirty on all sides, but no one can deny, one side started it with a deliberate intent and 'philosophy'. Witmann literally was a posterboy for this.

 

This is one of those few cases in which I approve of WG's decision to not make the Citadel Tiger historically accurate - even though its specs and tier placement make it one of the more historically accurate Tigers.



darrenv64 #35 Posted 15 August 2018 - 11:16 PM

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Interestingly, many feel that Wittman is representative of Nazi evils. Yet, they have no issue with Soviet tanks named after one of the more prolific murderers and perpetrators of human suffering during the 20th Century, Joseph Stalin. Curiously, the German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact of 1939, that divided Poland between the two, and assigned Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland to the Soviet sphere of influence, is completely overlooked when determining who is politically incorrect. Further, WG, or anyone else for that matter, doesn't have trouble with the "Sheridan" light tank, named after General Phil Sheridan, who stated, "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead." It all comes down to context. Michael Wittman was a tank commander, no different than Otto Carius, who fought for his nation of birth, and wasn't attributed to atrocities.

Sgt Becket FEAR #36 Posted 15 August 2018 - 11:25 PM

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The Devastator medal was originally named after him (that's why it has an image of a Tiger).

 

I respect Wittmann as a soldier. He was a Nazi but he fought and died a soldier so I believe he deserves recognition for his accomplishments.

 

For the rest...it is not my place to judge.


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KLLDZR #37 Posted 16 August 2018 - 12:02 AM

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View PostIBROX 04, on 10 August 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

Just because he's a hero of all Nazi fanboys. Doesn't bother me . 

 

I think that "he's a hero of all Nazi fanboys" that is the problem, WG doesn't want to glorify & give hero status to a scum that was a proud SS member especially for European players where his military unit committed so many atrocities against people's relatives. It doesn't hit so close to home here in the US since so few of us were affected.

 

How about the Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler or Joseph Menegle twin crews next? Hell Joseph Stalin crew would piss off a crap load of German's I bet? The Taliban is on par with the SS in a lot of ways how would an Osama Bin Laden crew for a captured Afghan T-62 be?

 

I'm in no way saying erase the past that's the last thing I want. Teach, talk & pubish about the atrocities ALL SIDES committed make sure to include people's names!

 

There are all kind of folks playing this game why not just be safe about who they name things after plus unfortunately if you want to see/play Nazi glorifying content it's easy to find.:sceptic:


Edited by KLLDZR, 16 August 2018 - 12:08 AM.


Sgt Becket FEAR #38 Posted 16 August 2018 - 12:19 AM

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War is never something to glorify.

 

Wittmann was just a man.

 

I was raised to respect the dead which is why I cannot judge him for what happened outside the battlefield.

 

I think that it would be in poor taste for any real world commander to be in this game.


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KLLDZR #39 Posted 16 August 2018 - 01:02 AM

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View PostSGT Rock 1963, on 10 August 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

 

They were german ss soldiers in uniform, Even the commanders were convicts. Warsaw was just an example. They did the same thing all the way to Moscow. Then they got smashed, The red army retribution  with its mongol convict troops, May have been just as brutal. But it wasnt premeditated, It was retribution. They weren't the aggressors.  What a terrible price the expelled german people paid, All over Europe after the surrender. As the world stood bye and watched. 20 million german civilian deaths, Killed by the european people,  Another 5 million soldiers and civilians, In Eisenhowers detention camps, Throughout Germany of disease, winter time elements exposure and starvation.  The biggest crime, Was allowing hitler to re-arm. I've never figured that out, It wasnt a secret. He built the biggest army in Europe at that time. I mean even if that wasnt a give away. 1500 Aircraft in the luftwaffe (hello), And he had 300 uboats, That was a couple violations, Not even talking his Dreadnoughts, He wasn't allowed anything bigger than a cruiser. But he had super cruisers before his dreadnoughts. 

 

Well I know one reason rearmament was allowed, it's the reason so many questionable things that lead to horrible things are allowed to happen. Follow the money, love that saying can't remember when I 1st heard it but it's so true. American & European companies were making shyte loads of $$$ helping him re-arm so the governments turned a blind eye to make sure they got their cut!

 

Ford, GM & Alcoa aluminum were just 3 of many until we declared war & some still found ways to do it during the war. It makes me sick to think of all the Allied soldiers & civilians that died due to aluminum in in Nazi planes that our own greedy companies supplied & that's JUST aluminum! Like I said before it was all kinds of stuff. Alcoa & most of these companies were never held responsible & still exist due to the fact that facts are just being declassified or dug up due to the internet,



Jope2209 #40 Posted 18 August 2018 - 08:37 PM

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View PostSgt Becket FEAR, on 15 August 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

The Devastator medal was originally named after him (that's why it has an image of a Tiger).

 

I respect Wittmann as a soldier. He was a Nazi but he fought and died a soldier so I believe he deserves recognition for his accomplishments.

 

For the rest...it is not my place to judge.

 

That was actualy what I tried to ask in this poll. Can we acknowledge Wittmann, as the WW2 tank ace, OR do we have to identify him as a LSSAH officer and devoted Nazi.

We all play and love WoT (well most of us do), because of tanks. Personally I love historical tanks and no need to say that Tiger tanks are one of my favorites. Tigers are the best known tanks of the era and we can't have game about tanks without them. Question is, can we have historical commanders as well?


 

The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25, M7, T-50

 

New updated poll - please take a minute and cast your votes for the least preferred map in rotation (2019)





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