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Adjustment idea for newbie friendly.

new players retention low tier seal clubbing

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test777777 #1 Posted 26 September 2018 - 03:14 AM

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Food for thought.

 

As people have hinted at, tiers 1-4 aren't very active. That's going to be an issue for anyone looking to get a feel for the game. Even when they were more active and from my experience in Australia, the haven't been for over a year, they were not overly newbie friendly places due to seal clubbing.

Those tiers need a boost to numbers in a newbie friendly way and here's my fairly shallowly thought out suggestions as to how it might be turned around.

 

Since tier's below V don't count for MOEs and Earn Ops and are scattered with broken tanks, WN8C values should be adjusted to not include performance relating to those tiers too. WG should then remove tier 1-4 stats from the players global averages and create a whole new set of honours and medals for those tiers. Individually in each tank of tier 1-4, the stats would still show, just not contributing to player overall averages or WN8 values. Take that lower tier Stat padders!!!

WG should  reduce the crew and XP earning potential too so for those tiers, there would be no advantage for a player of higher tiers to further their interest at higher tiers at the expense of new players in lower tiers. It would also force new players to spend more time learning the finer points of game mechanics.

Without clubbers we have even less numbers in the lower tiers so WG should then pad the player numbers at tiers 1-3 with various bots that spawn on game start and have varied AI to simulate  humans where human numbers are insufficient.  Yep, mostly bots will exist in the short term but over time, as new players experience improves, the bot numbers would reduce as more and more new players stick around for longer.

 

Tier V MM would probably need to be adjusted to -1/+2 so they could see tier IV-VII but not tier III .  That way, while Tier V, will no longer be able to experience battles with a 2 tier advantage, MOE, Earn Ops,WN8C and average battle values wouldn't be impacted by the presence of bots at tier III either which would probably be more impacting. Tier IV could still experience bots when top tier but not when middle or bottom tier.

 

Now the bots may not be great but as long as they spawn at the same time as the players,offer some challenge and variety, aren't completely inept, predictable or ridiculously difficult they should provide a sense of achievement and reward for new players where they might be able to refine their skills a bit and get good and hopefully develop a thirst for the game. While better players might be more interested in playing higher tiered vehicles where they could work on perfecting their WN8 values, crew training, earning MOEs, and earning tanks through Earn Ops or clan based stuff.

 

As for me - I'm still not playing.

It's been 3 months now since I've played, Insurance is taking it's time., Nothing like watching premium time wasting away and hearing about Mercanaries, various earn ops, new tanks and all the salt people have with the game and the whining which goes along with that while. I'm here wanting to play and wishing I could.  I hunger to just to be able drive my garage tanks, with poor physics, crap MM, unforgiving RNG, crap teams and all.

 

 

 


 

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SGT Rock 1963 #2 Posted 26 September 2018 - 06:53 AM

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New players in lower tiers. With low battle counts. Are already separated from veteran players. Seal clubbers only face, Other seal clubbers. :child:

                                                                                                               

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Red Dough Boy #3 Posted 26 September 2018 - 11:26 AM

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PC has a system that has +2/-2 MM start at tier 5 where tanks can actually handle themselves, otherwise it's +1/-1 up to and including tier 4. This would be the biggest change to help newer players as they wouldn't be thrown into tier 5 matches in their tier 3s and do almost nothing. It would enable stat padders and seal clubbers, but would also be a smoother transition for new players. And as mentioned do away with including those stats in WN8 and other averages, in a way it does hurt averages because of the way they're weighted so in the long run you may have more people playing low tier tanks just to relax and have fun after having to play higher tiers and worry about stats.

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zXNsK-Dazzle-tm #4 Posted 26 September 2018 - 11:50 AM

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easy newbie go back to learning your tanks in training mood as well blank off with trying to get war gaming to help newbie's since they where not there before .it sounds like all you want is war gaming to nerf more tanks period and that is what they have been doing for cry babies

HaydnSym45 #5 Posted 26 September 2018 - 11:54 AM

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Op tier to 5 has already drained the lower tiers of players - getting rid of stats (which isn’t WG controller anyway) wouldn’t change much since only a fraction of players even care about WN8 - and those that do are pretty insistent about looking at high-tier ratings anyway. So tiers 1-4 will have no more or less players than now no matter how much you alter everything you’ve suggested imho.

Tempest fox3 #6 Posted 26 September 2018 - 02:47 PM

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Just take the AW approach, tier 1-4 fight bots only.

And add bots to pad out tier 5 games so they get to be top tier sometimes.

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ThermalStone #7 Posted 26 September 2018 - 04:18 PM

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Interesting ideas but the last thing we need is to divide the player base.  Most players in low tiers aren't new players, they are regular players grinding out tank lines with a healthy dose of "crew trainers" thrown in.  Drive away the seal clubbers and the lobbies will be even emptier.  Bots are a bad idea.  Racking up kills on bots would be no better practice for higher thiers than playing War Stories or training grounds.  Most players on this forum would see multiplayer bots as a sign of impending doom for the game.  

 

What makes seal clubbing so easy at lower tiers?  It isn't player skill.  Most players are bad all the way up through tier 10.  It's the way the tanks are not balanced.  You have some of the worst pieces of [edited]in the same tiers as the most devastating and overpowered tanks in the game.  Across the board, low tier tanks have minute amounts of HP compared to extremely high DPM output, especially alpha strikes from the autocannons.  Most tier 2 tanks, for instance, have the DPM to kill another tier 2 tank in 10 seconds or less.  This serves to magnify what would be small gaps in player skill at higher levels.  A decent player can often get the jump on an enemy tank and kill them before they have a chance to shoot back.  A good player can do this multiple times, racking up kills and damage without taking any hits in return.  I've killed 10 out of 11 tanks many times, sometimes while taking two penetrating hits or less.  That would be nearly impossible at higher tiers.  

 

On top of this, seal clubbers bring 100 percent crews, often with multiple skills, while a regular low tier player starts with a 50% crew that can't hit anything or turn the tank fast enough to brawl.  Even a unicum would have trouble having a good game in a stock TT tank with a 50% crew.  That's why most of them use free XP to skip low tiers:  they are just as afraid of being clubbed as everyone else.  

 

Solutions:

 

1.  Rebalance tanks, nerfs and buffs:  This would take a lot of effort on WG's part, which is why they'd rather slowly starve low tier play.  Start with nerfing the T-Rex.  

 

2.  Increase HP almost across the board.  Make it harder for clubbers to obliterate an enemy in a single alpha strike, give the seals a chance to shoot back.

 

3.  All crews start at 100%.  Take away the biggest advantage of the clubbers, let players start training a crew they will use for the entire line rather than throwing crews away until tier 5 or 6.  

 

4.  I like the +/-1 matchmaking that was previously mentioned.

 

5.  Let low tier tanks complete ops.  Alternatively, give different ops to low tiers with scaled down requirements and rewards.  


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Just An0maly #8 Posted 26 September 2018 - 04:37 PM

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View PostJosh02072002, on 26 September 2018 - 05:50 AM, said:

easy newbie go back to learning your tanks in training mood as well blank off with trying to get war gaming to help newbie's since they where not there before .it sounds like all you want is war gaming to nerf more tanks period and that is what they have been doing for cry babies

 

Someone needs a Snicker's.

Seriously, relax, he's just posting an idea - no need to resort to name calling and trying to shut him down.

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Xenith_Inc #9 Posted 26 September 2018 - 05:12 PM

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View PostThermalStone, on 26 September 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

Interesting ideas but the last thing we need is to divide the player base.  Most players in low tiers aren't new players, they are regular players grinding out tank lines with a healthy dose of "crew trainers" thrown in.  Drive away the seal clubbers and the lobbies will be even emptier.  Bots are a bad idea.  Racking up kills on bots would be no better practice for higher thiers than playing War Stories or training grounds.  Most players on this forum would see multiplayer bots as a sign of impending doom for the game.  

 

What makes seal clubbing so easy at lower tiers?  It isn't player skill.  Most players are bad all the way up through tier 10.  It's the way the tanks are not balanced.  You have some of the worst pieces of [edited]in the same tiers as the most devastating and overpowered tanks in the game.  Across the board, low tier tanks have minute amounts of HP compared to extremely high DPM output, especially alpha strikes from the autocannons.  Most tier 2 tanks, for instance, have the DPM to kill another tier 2 tank in 10 seconds or less.  This serves to magnify what would be small gaps in player skill at higher levels.  A decent player can often get the jump on an enemy tank and kill them before they have a chance to shoot back.  A good player can do this multiple times, racking up kills and damage without taking any hits in return.  I've killed 10 out of 11 tanks many times, sometimes while taking two penetrating hits or less.  That would be nearly impossible at higher tiers.  

 

On top of this, seal clubbers bring 100 percent crews, often with multiple skills, while a regular low tier player starts with a 50% crew that can't hit anything or turn the tank fast enough to brawl.  Even a unicum would have trouble having a good game in a stock TT tank with a 50% crew.  That's why most of them use free XP to skip low tiers:  they are just as afraid of being clubbed as everyone else.  

 

Solutions:

 

1.  Rebalance tanks, nerfs and buffs:  This would take a lot of effort on WG's part, which is why they'd rather slowly starve low tier play.  Start with nerfing the T-Rex.  

 

2.  Increase HP almost across the board.  Make it harder for clubbers to obliterate an enemy in a single alpha strike, give the seals a chance to shoot back.

 

3.  All crews start at 100%.  Take away the biggest advantage of the clubbers, let players start training a crew they will use for the entire line rather than throwing crews away until tier 5 or 6.  

 

4.  I like the +/-1 matchmaking that was previously mentioned.

 

5.  Let low tier tanks complete ops.  Alternatively, give different ops to low tiers with scaled down requirements and rewards.  

 

Can only agree with all of this. Drive up to tank, hold R2 til dead, repeat is fun, but not for newbies. 

 

 


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Tankatar #10 Posted 26 September 2018 - 07:02 PM

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Simply give the new player free unlimited premium ammo in every tank used for the first 25 games played in each respective tank Tiers 1 to 4...That's how you balance this game for new players..Maybe, half price premium ammo for 1 tank at each tier level (1-4) for another 25 games?

ThermalStone #11 Posted 26 September 2018 - 10:12 PM

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View PostTankatar, on 26 September 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

Simply give the new player free unlimited premium ammo in every tank used for the first 25 games played in each respective tank Tiers 1 to 4...That's how you balance this game for new players..Maybe, half price premium ammo for 1 tank at each tier level (1-4) for another 25 games?

 

I'm fine with premium ammo spam. It's the easiest way to make a big improvement in your results.  But it's a skill multiplier.  The single biggest difference between good players and bad players is that good players shoot way more shots per game.  The more shots you can fire, the more you'll benefit from prammo spam.  New players aren't getting enough shots off per game for prammo to make a big difference.  Also, budgeting your silver is an important WoT skill, just as important as aiming.  Better to let new players start learning it early.  

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PATRIOTICxTBro #12 Posted 26 September 2018 - 10:45 PM

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World of tanks doesn’t operate wn8 values. That’s a third party invention based off wg api. You would have to approach said third party sites for anything wn8 related. 

 

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test777777 #13 Posted 27 September 2018 - 12:35 AM

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View PostSGT Rock 1963, on 26 September 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

New players in lower tiers. With low battle counts. Are already separated from veteran players. Seal clubbers only face, Other seal clubbers. :child:

 

​There's two types of clubbers in my opinion, there are possibly more.. Those that do it to stat pad and those who do it because it's easier to get certain rewards and crew training is more efficient than working the higher tiers.  Clubbing isn't the issue for new players so much, they exist at all tiers, it's the number of clubbers versus new players. If a new player is being owned in every battle they won't stick around.

 

At the moment there isn't a heck of a lot of players and there are simply insufficient numbers in lower tiers to even get battles so a new player queues for 5 mins, back to garage they go, queue for 3 mins and oooh bottom tier, in a 7v7 where they lost silver and Rinse and repeat. That's not a formula for keeping players interested.

 

It doesn't work for people wanting to get in to the game because there's more time spent queuing than there is playing and the time spent playing is spent being outmatched and outclassed and they get stuck in a rutt.  It's fine for veterans who will probably mostly free XP their way through anyway but we need new and inexperienced players in the lower tiers so they might enjoy the game and be excited enough to try some of the higher tiers.


 

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test777777 #14 Posted 27 September 2018 - 12:37 AM

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View PostPATRIOTICxTBro, on 27 September 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

World of tanks doesn’t operate wn8 values. That’s a third party invention based off wg api. You would have to approach said third party sites for anything wn8 related. 

 

​I understand this is beyond WG direct control however, they can remove the lower tiers from overall stats calculations for the account.

 

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PATRIOTICxTBro #15 Posted 27 September 2018 - 12:57 AM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 September 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

 

​I understand this is beyond WG direct control however, they can remove the lower tiers from overall stats calculations for the account.

Counter point how would a newbie know how they compare to their piers? How would they be able to see how they can improve and where they are doing well? Do you want them to wait until tier 5? 

 

I agree with the mm adjustment as well as the possibility of bots (as long as they have a ferrying degree of difficult to add a little bit of realism) I just don’t know about stats as they are very useful as a way to determine ones success and failure. 


 

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test777777 #16 Posted 27 September 2018 - 01:47 AM

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Regarding Bots, a lot of people suggest bad idea because they are too predictable and new players would not benefit.

To that I have three things to say.

1. Predictability of bots purely comes down to the AI. That includes how they respond when they are shot at accuracy, map pathing, map awareness, group tactics,defensive techniques, offensive techniques, objectives, different ammo types, The whole lot.  There may well be YOLO bots, there may be hull down defensive bots, bots in platoon, camper bots, aggressive offensive bots.

 

2. Human players who are new tend to make predictable mistakes -

 

3. Taking on bots for someone looking to get into the game and experience what 15v15 multiplayer battles are like is preferable to not getting a battle, overly severe match making or having low numbers in battle, where the new player's opportunity to participate at all is restricted to the point of after an hour of queuing or getting beaten up - they'd have no silver left, be convinced the game doesn't suit them and really have no reason to stick around.

 

The bots concept is not intended to replace human participation, it's intended to enhance it and increase them  by providing the opportunity for new players or poorer quality players to experience and participate in battles, experiencing success and progress on a level which suits their dynamic and when they want more, they can enter tier V and experience additional rewards, more tanks, MOEs, Earn Ops, Epic Medals and global stats.


 

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JatemKaa #17 Posted 27 September 2018 - 03:07 AM

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View Posttest777777, on 25 September 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

Food for thought.

 

As people have hinted at, tiers 1-4 aren't very active. That's going to be an issue for anyone looking to get a feel for the game. Even when they were more active and from my experience in Australia, the haven't been for over a year, they were not overly newbie friendly places due to seal clubbing.

Those tiers need a boost to numbers in a newbie friendly way and here's my fairly shallowly thought out suggestions as to how it might be turned around.

 

Since tier's below V don't count for MOEs and Earn Ops and are scattered with broken tanks, WN8C values should be adjusted to not include performance relating to those tiers too. WG should then remove tier 1-4 stats from the players global averages and create a whole new set of honours and medals for those tiers. Individually in each tank of tier 1-4, the stats would still show, just not contributing to player overall averages or WN8 values. Take that lower tier Stat padders!!!

WG should  reduce the crew and XP earning potential too so for those tiers, there would be no advantage for a player of higher tiers to further their interest at higher tiers at the expense of new players in lower tiers. It would also force new players to spend more time learning the finer points of game mechanics.

Without clubbers we have even less numbers in the lower tiers so WG should then pad the player numbers at tiers 1-3 with various bots that spawn on game start and have varied AI to simulate  humans where human numbers are insufficient.  Yep, mostly bots will exist in the short term but over time, as new players experience improves, the bot numbers would reduce as more and more new players stick around for longer.

 

Tier V MM would probably need to be adjusted to -1/+2 so they could see tier IV-VII but not tier III .  That way, while Tier V, will no longer be able to experience battles with a 2 tier advantage, MOE, Earn Ops,WN8C and average battle values wouldn't be impacted by the presence of bots at tier III either which would probably be more impacting. Tier IV could still experience bots when top tier but not when middle or bottom tier.

 

Now the bots may not be great but as long as they spawn at the same time as the players,offer some challenge and variety, aren't completely inept, predictable or ridiculously difficult they should provide a sense of achievement and reward for new players where they might be able to refine their skills a bit and get good and hopefully develop a thirst for the game. While better players might be more interested in playing higher tiered vehicles where they could work on perfecting their WN8 values, crew training, earning MOEs, and earning tanks through Earn Ops or clan based stuff.

 

As for me - I'm still not playing.

It's been 3 months now since I've played, Insurance is taking it's time., Nothing like watching premium time wasting away and hearing about Mercanaries, various earn ops, new tanks and all the salt people have with the game and the whining which goes along with that while. I'm here wanting to play and wishing I could.  I hunger to just to be able drive my garage tanks, with poor physics, crap MM, unforgiving RNG, crap teams and all.

 

 

 

WG should then remove tier 1-4 stats from the players global averages and create a whole new set of honours and medals for those tiers. Individually in each tank of tier 1-4, the stats would still show, just not contributing to player overall averages or WN8 values. Take that lower tier Stat padders!!! Would love this! Just think, all those battles you lost back when you were learning the game DON'T count! AGREE WITH THIS - WG PLEASE IMPLEMENT THIS!

WG should  reduce the crew and XP earning potential too so for those tiers, there would be no advantage for a player of higher tiers to further their interest at higher tiers at the expense of new players in lower tiers. It would also force new players to spend more time learning the finer points of game mechanics.. BAD IDEA. Reducing the crew and XP earning potential for these tier has a VERY negative effect - it forces the new player to suffer with even longer grinds to reach the higher tiers. It is bad enough as it is, to make it even harder will drive the newbies away even faster than they already are leaving. Plus What happens when to the higher tiers xp requirements say at tier 5 when the tier 4 is equal to it. Only fair way to do it would be to decrease it at ALL tiers.

Without clubbers we have even less numbers in the lower tiers so WG should then pad the player numbers at tiers 1-3 with various bots that spawn on game start and have varied AI to simulate  humans where human numbers are insufficient.  Yep, mostly bots will exist in the short term but over time, as new players experience improves, the bot numbers would reduce as more and more new players stick around for longer. Not to sure about bots. Look at them in War Stories and Proving Grounds. They are always to weak and stupid or too strong and overpowering. Or at least the bots I have seen from WG anyway. Would like to believe they could balance them, however, given how well they balanced things in 4.6 can't see it happening.

 Now the bots may not be great but as long as they spawn at the same time as the players,offer some challenge and variety, aren't completely inept, predictable or ridiculously difficult they should provide a sense of achievement and reward for new players where they might be able to refine their skills a bit and get good and hopefully develop a thirst for the game. Why not just take this to the obvious end - just have all new players play alone against all bots for the first two tiers, then add half the team as players in tiers 3 or four.



test777777 #18 Posted 27 September 2018 - 03:36 AM

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View PostPATRIOTICxTBro, on 27 September 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

Counter point how would a newbie know how they compare to their piers? How would they be able to see how they can improve and where they are doing well? Do you want them to wait until tier 5? 

It depends what one is trying to compare to their peers and who one considers to be their peers but in a general sense, i'd ask the question as to how one does either of those things now? I'm pretty sure you and I have never been in the same team or even in the same battle. I don't even know if any of the players in battles that I've encountered have ever been in battles that you've encountered. If we look at stats, you've probably done better than me in your battles than I have in mine.  With all that said, are we even peers and can our results compare in any relatable meaningful way?

The same can be said with awards, they relate to the other players in the battles where they were earned. The difficulty of achieving an Ace's and MOE relate to the competition when they were earned. We assume that the competition is comparable so we assume the statistical data is relatable.

 

As far as a new player might be able to gauge their sense of success or lack there of relative to others, they could still compare battle performance stats and tank stats if they were so inclined but it comes back to how relatable the battles are as to how useful any comparison might be. 

After each battle there'd still be a summary of performance, each garage tank would still have it's own results if they want to look at tanks they do better in.  

 

When it comes to learning, Humans won't always do better than  bots and it's expected that one would still need to learn to out play them consistently, to the same extent that if they were playing other humans.

When one is experienced enough, the rate of learning would drop off and they would need stiffer competition to grow.

Provided the competition is not too easy and not too difficult, people who have potential to grow and should automatically grow, they'll learn from their mistakes, work out what works and what doesn't, become more familiar with the controls, maps, shooting, moving, spotting, going hull down, angling, sidescraping in what would hopefully be an environment where they could practice such things. They might read, research, ask veteran's questions on the forum. The key is to have bots which perform as a group in a statistically similar way to what real humans might when in comparable competition. It may mean they would need to develop a specific set of bots for each map and simulate 1000s of MM and 1000s of bot v bot team battles to have the bots tweaked enough to do that.

 

Having extra humans in battles doesn't equate to having better knowledge or improve the learning environment. It can but lets face it, there's lots of conflicting advice going around, lots of hate too when opinions conflict.  

 


 

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test777777 #19 Posted 27 September 2018 - 04:23 AM

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View PostJatemKaa, on 27 September 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

WG should then remove tier 1-4 stats from the players global averages and create a whole new set of honours and medals for those tiers. Individually in each tank of tier 1-4, the stats would still show, just not contributing to player overall averages or WN8 values. Take that lower tier Stat padders!!! Would love this! Just think, all those battles you lost back when you were learning the game DON'T count! AGREE WITH THIS - WG PLEASE IMPLEMENT THIS!

 

Yep - they aren't very relatable although, mileage will vary depending on how many battles, one spent in those tiers..

 

 

JatemKaa, on 27 September 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

WG should  reduce the crew and XP earning potential too so for those tiers, there would be no advantage for a player of higher tiers to further their interest at higher tiers at the expense of new players in lower tiers. It would also force new players to spend more time learning the finer points of game mechanics.. BAD IDEA. Reducing the crew and XP earning potential for these tier has a VERY negative effect - it forces the new player to suffer with even longer grinds to reach the higher tiers. It is bad enough as it is, to make it even harder will drive the newbies away even faster than they already are leaving. Plus What happens when to the higher tiers xp requirements say at tier 5 when the tier 4 is equal to it. Only fair way to do it would be to decrease it at ALL tiers.

 The whole point is to keep the new players in school for longer to maintain their exposure where they can appreciate the game and when they make it to tier V, they'll hopefully be higher quality players as a result.  Why would it drive new players away? It's not a race through the tiers.

 

 

JatemKaa, on 27 September 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

Without clubbers we have even less numbers in the lower tiers so WG should then pad the player numbers at tiers 1-3 with various bots that spawn on game start and have varied AI to simulate  humans where human numbers are insufficient.  Yep, mostly bots will exist in the short term but over time, as new players experience improves, the bot numbers would reduce as more and more new players stick around for longer. Not to sure about bots. Look at them in War Stories and Proving Grounds. They are always to weak and stupid or too strong and overpowering. Or at least the bots I have seen from WG anyway. Would like to believe they could balance them, however, given how well they balanced things in 4.6 can't see it happening.

 

 

Lots of issues with the bot implementations in the PVE stuff from player event triggering spawn or scripted action to being individually below par vehicles often being driven by inept AI with predictable pathing.  WS AI is for the most part better than PG but there's still plenty of issues.  The only thing which really gives the Bots any chance is power of numbers combined with objective based goals for the player, forcing spawning of more bots, greens and reds and the player is essentially alone versus 90% of the enemy.

If bots are to be used in PVP, they need a better range of intelligence and better range of personality and be able to prioritise and develop objectives based on a combination of what's happening around them at the time(based on their programmed level of awareness), their personality, What other players are doing and the over all team winning condition.

 

 

 

 

JatemKaa, on 27 September 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

Now the bots may not be great but as long as they spawn at the same time as the players,offer some challenge and variety, aren't completely inept, predictable or ridiculously difficult they should provide a sense of achievement and reward for new players where they might be able to refine their skills a bit and get good and hopefully develop a thirst for the game. Why not just take this to the obvious end - just have all new players play alone against all bots for the first two tiers, then add half the team as players in tiers 3 or four.

The idea is not to replace players with bots but to use bots as a substitute for when there's a lack of players available which there is right now. As time progresses, the bot numbers per battle, would hopefully decrease.  The idea is not intended to promote a new single player training mode. The more humans the better in the mix, just not of the clubbing variety.

 


Edited by test777777, 27 September 2018 - 04:28 AM.

 

Playing it safe


scwirpeo #20 Posted 27 September 2018 - 04:48 AM

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I'm seeing a problem here. How exactly do you connect tier 4 viability with selling reskins. We have to focus on priorities you know.

MOEs so I can pretend like they matter

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