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Adjustment idea for newbie friendly.

new players retention low tier seal clubbing

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test777777 #21 Posted 27 September 2018 - 04:52 AM

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View PostThermalStone, on 27 September 2018 - 06:12 AM, said:

 

I'm fine with premium ammo spam. It's the easiest way to make a big improvement in your results.  But it's a skill multiplier.  The single biggest difference between good players and bad players is that good players shoot way more shots per game.  The more shots you can fire, the more you'll benefit from prammo spam.  New players aren't getting enough shots off per game for prammo to make a big difference.  Also, budgeting your silver is an important WoT skill, just as important as aiming.  Better to let new players start learning it early.  

I agree. It is a skill multiplier and as such, the amount of benefit correlates with the amount of skill. It's not just the amount of shots fired though. They have to be scoring shots and skilled players have developed the timing and knowledge to do that effectively. I also agree, the economics of using it hurts less skilled players more than skilled players or $$$ rich players. Personally, I think they should get rid of it all together or limit the amount of shots. 


 

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test777777 #22 Posted 27 September 2018 - 06:19 AM

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View PostJosh02072002, on 26 September 2018 - 07:50 PM, said:

easy newbie go back to learning your tanks in training mood as well blank off with trying to get war gaming to help newbie's since they where not there before .it sounds like all you want is war gaming to nerf more tanks period and that is what they have been doing for cry babies

 

 

Your response doesn't relate to what I've written, doesn't acknowledge the major issue of player numbers reducing and  the invariable conclusion to that is it's  game over for everyone newbie and veteran alike. Further your post doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, seems to be a rant with baseless pestilent insults and I'm not even sure that English is your first language  but it wouldn't surprise me if it was and  the 02072002 part of your GT refers to your DoB.   

 

I want new players to get a feel for the game and  to enjoy their initial foray into game with the hope that they will come back for more and learn the game, eventually becoming the unicum veterans of the games future player base.

 

I would like to see little to no advantage for experienced players to be in lower tiers. They've been there, done that. It won't impact their overall stats, won't impact their XP, offer no advantage to earn ops, or getting some of those epic medals. Perhaps if they have a friend they want to show the ropes to but beyond that, no real reason.

I would like to see little or no incentive or ability for new players to experience the harsher higher tiers until they have outgrown the lower tiers and had the opportunity to have fun, get hooked,  learn and be better players.

 

No cry babies, no nerfs, no training moods or blank offs but yes, I would appreciate WG help, they have a reason to keep the game around too.

 


 

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EL33T B33T #23 Posted 27 September 2018 - 11:01 AM

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View PostThermalStone, on 26 September 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

Interesting ideas but the last thing we need is to divide the player base.  Most players in low tiers aren't new players, they are regular players grinding out tank lines with a healthy dose of "crew trainers" thrown in.  Drive away the seal clubbers and the lobbies will be even emptier.  Bots are a bad idea.  Racking up kills on bots would be no better practice for higher thiers than playing War Stories or training grounds.  Most players on this forum would see multiplayer bots as a sign of impending doom for the game.  

 

What makes seal clubbing so easy at lower tiers?  It isn't player skill.  Most players are bad all the way up through tier 10.  It's the way the tanks are not balanced.  You have some of the worst pieces of [edited]in the same tiers as the most devastating and overpowered tanks in the game.  Across the board, low tier tanks have minute amounts of HP compared to extremely high DPM output, especially alpha strikes from the autocannons.  Most tier 2 tanks, for instance, have the DPM to kill another tier 2 tank in 10 seconds or less.  This serves to magnify what would be small gaps in player skill at higher levels.  A decent player can often get the jump on an enemy tank and kill them before they have a chance to shoot back.  A good player can do this multiple times, racking up kills and damage without taking any hits in return.  I've killed 10 out of 11 tanks many times, sometimes while taking two penetrating hits or less.  That would be nearly impossible at higher tiers.  

 

On top of this, seal clubbers bring 100 percent crews, often with multiple skills, while a regular low tier player starts with a 50% crew that can't hit anything or turn the tank fast enough to brawl.  Even a unicum would have trouble having a good game in a stock TT tank with a 50% crew.  That's why most of them use free XP to skip low tiers:  they are just as afraid of being clubbed as everyone else.  

 

Solutions:

 

1.  Rebalance tanks, nerfs and buffs:  This would take a lot of effort on WG's part, which is why they'd rather slowly starve low tier play.  Start with nerfing the T-Rex.  

 

2.  Increase HP almost across the board.  Make it harder for clubbers to obliterate an enemy in a single alpha strike, give the seals a chance to shoot back.

 

3.  All crews start at 100%.  Take away the biggest advantage of the clubbers, let players start training a crew they will use for the entire line rather than throwing crews away until tier 5 or 6.  

 

4.  I like the +/-1 matchmaking that was previously mentioned.

 

5.  Let low tier tanks complete ops.  Alternatively, give different ops to low tiers with scaled down requirements and rewards.  

 

Pinpoint observation and some really good suggestions. +1

JatemKaa #24 Posted 28 September 2018 - 12:21 AM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 September 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

Yep - they aren't very relatable although, mileage will vary depending on how many battles, one spent in those tiers..

 

 

 The whole point is to keep the new players in school for longer to maintain their exposure where they can appreciate the game and when they make it to tier V, they'll hopefully be higher quality players as a result.  Why would it drive new players away? It's not a race through the tiers.

 

 

 

Lots of issues with the bot implementations in the PVE stuff from player event triggering spawn or scripted action to being individually below par vehicles often being driven by inept AI with predictable pathing.  WS AI is for the most part better than PG but there's still plenty of issues.  The only thing which really gives the Bots any chance is power of numbers combined with objective based goals for the player, forcing spawning of more bots, greens and reds and the player is essentially alone versus 90% of the enemy.

If bots are to be used in PVP, they need a better range of intelligence and better range of personality and be able to prioritise and develop objectives based on a combination of what's happening around them at the time(based on their programmed level of awareness), their personality, What other players are doing and the over all team winning condition.

 

 

 

 

The idea is not to replace players with bots but to use bots as a substitute for when there's a lack of players available which there is right now. As time progresses, the bot numbers per battle, would hopefully decrease.  The idea is not intended to promote a new single player training mode. The more humans the better in the mix, just not of the clubbing variety.

 

 The whole point is to keep the new players in school for longer to maintain their exposure where they can appreciate the game and when they make it to tier V, they'll hopefully be higher quality players as a result.  Why would it drive new players away? It's not a race through the tiers. Not a race thru the tiers - really. At what tier do the ops REWARDS require you to be most of the time now? Tier 5. If you don't want players to race to the point they can get the rewards, then you have to have rewards for them to stay there to learn - all you have now is punishing the player by denying rewards until you get a higher tier. More flies with sugar than vinegar thing. As it is now, you must race thru the lower tiers to reach tier 5 if you want rewards.

 

Lots of issues with the bot implementations in the PVE stuff from player event triggering spawn or scripted action to being individually below par vehicles often being driven by inept AI with predictable pathing.  WS AI is for the most part better than PG but there's still plenty of issues.  The only thing which really gives the Bots any chance is power of numbers combined with objective based goals for the player, forcing spawning of more bots, greens and reds and the player is essentially alone versus 90% of the enemy.

If bots are to be used in PVP, they need a better range of intelligence and better range of personality and be able to prioritize and develop objectives based on a combination of what's happening around them at the time(based on their programmed level of awareness), their personality, What other players are doing and the over all team winning condition. Giving how well WG is doing with a wide variety of problems in the game right now, do you really think they could pull off this feat? 4.6 points out they can't, and more importantly, don't want to.

 

The idea is not to replace players with bots but to use bots as a substitute for when there's a lack of players available which there is right now. As time progresses, the bot numbers per battle, would hopefully decrease.  The idea is not intended to promote a new single player training mode. The more humans the better in the mix, just not of the clubbing variety. You have more hope for this game than I do clearly. For quite a while now the trend is players leaving the game faster than it is growing. Given that, on what do you base your hope for number of bot games decreasing? Hopefully not crossplatforming - the declining player base would make that a fail for Sony.



test777777 #25 Posted 28 September 2018 - 03:59 AM

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View PostThermalStone, on 27 September 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

Interesting ideas but the last thing we need is to divide the player base.  Most players in low tiers aren't new players, they are regular players grinding out tank lines with a healthy dose of "crew trainers" thrown in.  Drive away the seal clubbers and the lobbies will be even emptier.  Bots are a bad idea.  Racking up kills on bots would be no better practice for higher thiers than playing War Stories or training grounds.  Most players on this forum would see multiplayer bots as a sign of impending doom for the game.  

 

 

Sorry Thermal, I missed this yesterday.

We agree on the population levels needing to increase but we don't agree on how that should be achieved.

 

I do believe a class separation or player divide or league separation is very much a necessity to provide the experience necessary for new players to gain experience.

I know you feel that bots could not be useful or just as useful as those in other game modes. I disagree. WG would have to improve on the bots though.

 

WS and PG bots have very limited pathing, next to no map awareness and only become aware if their spawn is triggered. If the player does nothing at all, the bots do nothing. Players are pushed along on a scripted path and forced to create trigger conditions to engage the enemy in ways that really aren't ideal for many vehicles to engage. It's basically a player versus many battle of attrition against waves of bots.  

It possibly is more effective for groups of players or more experienced players but for a beginner player it's not very useful.

The PVE modes don't provide opportunities to experience and learn how to support other players, how to use terrain properly to mitigate damage, remain out of line of sight and be arty safe,, how to scout and hide, how to snipe and ambush or how to play artillery.   

 

The lobbies in low tiers should be filled with newer players or learning players and the environment should be geared toward their sense of achievement.  It currently isn't and hasn't been for a long time.  I believe some of the population levels issue stems from a lower uptake of the game combined with the game design, making it advantageous for veterans to regularly spend their time there farming the new guys who would feel so severely outclassed that they'd do one of three things. 

1. Leave

2. Buy a premium vehicle by spending money 

3. play PG to get XP so they could get out of the lower tiers.  That's what I did.

 

Any of those actions meant there would be even less new players in the lower tiers which in turn would increase the ratio of veterans to new players  not because more veterans were playing but because less new players were there. Having less new players there meant even less opportunity for those taking up the game to encounter and achieve against other new players(they just wouldn't encounter them enough) and their sense of achievement was subsequently less than the generation which came before them.  

Increased other game competition and  the ability to get in to a battle quickly or at all, let alone accomplish much at all if they get in means new players now  are likely to be even less tolerant of adverse competition and far more likely to choose option 1, take up something like Fortnite or WT or AW because they will gain more of a sense of accomplishment.

This is all bad for this game. It didn't matter so much when the uptake of the game allowed for new player versus new player matchups more often. The ratio of new players to vets was less. Battles would be 15 v 15 Vets could farm away, new player,  would still gain a sense of achievement from their encounters with other new players. But that's not the case currently and hasn't been for a long time.

 

New players really do need to see that their effort is reflected in XP and silver and rewards which are fitting for that tier.  If a mostly veteran population exists in the lower tiers they will be impeding those opportunities to the detriment of keeping new players interested.

If new players don't remain interested, we won't have a new generation of tankers which is desperately needed since the veteran population is dying off for no real other reason than, natural life cycle.

 

I know i'm repeating myself but I just don't see any other way to keep new players sticking around except to decentivise veterans from gaining anything from being in the same battles as them during the new players first foray into the multiplayer area of the game.

 

Even If new players have  exactly the same skill(which they don't) as a veteran player and exactly the same knowledge of map(which they likely don't) and exactly the same OP vehicle(which they probably don't) they are so far behind the 8 ball when it comes to being able to obtain and leverage the multipliers provided by prammo, premium equipment, and crew skills/perks. That they can't compete and if they can't compete, they can't get anywhere, lose silver, don't get any fancy awards and can't get ahead, what's the incentive for them to play?

 

ThermalStone, on 27 September 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

1.  Rebalance tanks, nerfs and buffs:  This would take a lot of effort on WG's part, which is why they'd rather slowly starve low tier play.  Start with nerfing the T-Rex.  

 While rebalancing is important, the issue is, no matter what tank is being driven is that the veteran clubber has, experience, knowledge of tanks,crew skills/perks, silver which allows them to use prammo, premium food and equipment and all the advantages which come with those things. 

Not only do they have the advantage of being better players but using the multipliers to multiply that advantage just creates an even more unbalanced playing field.   

 

ThermalStone, on 27 September 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

2.  Increase HP almost across the board.  Make it harder for clubbers to obliterate an enemy in a single alpha strike, give the seals a chance to shoot back.

 Perhaps although, that also makes it more difficult for veterans to be killed by a single alpha strike too, even if it's a lucky shot.  

 

ThermalStone, on 27 September 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

3.  All crews start at 100%.  Take away the biggest advantage of the clubbers, let players start training a crew they will use for the entire line rather than throwing crews away until tier 5 or 6.  

 That doesn't offset the skills/perks advantage of experienced crews being used over non experienced crews.

 

ThermalStone, on 27 September 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

4.  I like the +/-1 matchmaking that was previously mentioned.

 At least with bots boosting numbers, it will be viable. Not with current populations though.

 Impact to Tier V tanker stats would be interesting, I wonder if those tankers with tier V tanks would feel that unfairly disadvantages them with no tier IIIs around for the killing anymore but I suppose that's sort of how it is now anyway. Numbers should increase in tier IV so tier V/IV battles should occur more often and that may serve to offset the loss of tier V not being able to stomp tier III. Something tells me tier V premiums, will still dominate in earn ops.

 

ThermalStone, on 27 September 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

5.  Let low tier tanks complete ops.  Alternatively, give different ops to low tiers with scaled down requirements and rewards. 

 I don't see how that helps except it's incentivising veterans to compete with each other for the rewards at low tiers at the same time as they are competing for rewards in the big boys ops. There needs to be the ability for new players and only new players to be awarded regardless of veteran encounters. Maybe earn ops are only earnable by accounts which have played less than 1500 battles or something. Maybe a free garage slot, a 100% trained crew and and some silver the first time a player unlocks a new tier for the first 5 tiers or something as a reward which adds value for a new player but doesn't incentivise veterans. I suppose there is also console achievements which also add value for new players only but there needs to be more.

 


 

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I pok smote #26 Posted 28 September 2018 - 05:42 AM

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I VOTE they get rid of tiers 1-4 entirely

robertthred #27 Posted 13 October 2018 - 11:27 PM

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View PostJosh02072002, on 26 September 2018 - 05:50 AM, said:

easy newbie go back to learning your tanks in training mood as well blank off with trying to get war gaming to help newbie's since they where not there before .it sounds like all you want is war gaming to nerf more tanks period and that is what they have been doing for cry babies

Sounds like what a stat padding low tier seal clubber would say...


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JatemKaa #28 Posted 13 October 2018 - 11:44 PM

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View PostI pok smote, on 27 September 2018 - 11:42 PM, said:

I VOTE they get rid of tiers 1-4 entirely

 

By all means - lets make new players learn in tier 5's. Talk about driving the players away EVEN faster.

I pok smote #29 Posted 14 October 2018 - 04:55 AM

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View PostJatemKaa, on 13 October 2018 - 11:44 PM, said:

 

By all means - lets make new players learn in tier 5's. Talk about driving the players away EVEN faster.

Sit the front door u no no .Way ur talking bout man just gargle d nuz 



robertthred #30 Posted 14 October 2018 - 06:06 AM

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View PostI pok smote, on 13 October 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

Sit the front door u no no .Way ur talking bout man just gargle d nuz 

Hhmmmm... it's almost like he's trying to communicate....though there's no clue as to WHAT he's trying to communicate.


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LadyTanker #31 Posted 14 October 2018 - 11:26 AM

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I started over on xbox from ps4 a little more than a month ago. Having to go through those tiers again, I just have to say, I think I've been clubbed plenty by kid players. So I don't really feel so bad for players at these tiers. I know that's not the only ones playing at those tiers, but if someone can't survive against a kid player, then maybe it's time to play Dodo Pop instead. :teethhappy:



TBO K1LL4C4M #32 Posted 14 October 2018 - 11:35 AM

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View PostI pok smote, on 14 October 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

Sit the front door u no no .Way ur talking bout man just gargle d nuz 

Stop the weed. you can't handle it, it handles you. 



Just An0maly #33 Posted 14 October 2018 - 04:57 PM

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View PostI pok smote, on 13 October 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

Sit the front door u no no .Way ur talking bout man just gargle d nuz 

 

Remember the PSA of the egg frying in the pan - this is your brain, on drugs. Yeah, just a reminder for those who have retained long-term memory and brain function.






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