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Jope2209 #21 Posted 30 December 2018 - 07:24 PM

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View PostPontiac Pat, on 30 December 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

The moral of the story is that you don't yell at someone for not doing XYZ action just because you see they are a certain class of tank.  You have to know precisely what tank they are, whether they are fully upgraded, for the lights you need to know if their crew has camo/sixth sense, and you need to consider the map.  Small maps, especially small urban maps, make playing 'roles' very difficult in many cases.

 

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The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25, M7, T-50

 

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xCanonfodder #22 Posted 30 December 2018 - 07:29 PM

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View Postdeadman1921, on 30 December 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

Bottom line

You can’t tell others how to play the vehicle they are driving, period.

You can try but they are mostly not going to listen.
Then probably cuss you for pointing it out.

 

 

I'm not trying to tell them how to play their tanks (and I don't use a mic, and have voice turned off), I'm just trying to understand what is expected of myself and others.  If we're not supposed to fill roles, then I guess I'm going to the only vehicle that has their role baked into their gameplay, SPGs.  


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ThunderChickenX #23 Posted 30 December 2018 - 08:15 PM

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View PostxCanonfodder, on 30 December 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

 

So what are examples of lights that shouldn't play that way, heavies that are not the heaviest armored in their tier, TD's with poor guns, or arty that shouldn't be trying to dislodge people out of safe spots?  Are those exceptions though, or do they have too many that don't fit within these roles?

 

 

I do realize that lights shouldn't be zipping through the front lines recklessly.  It should only be done when safe to do so, or as a desperation move.  I'm not expecting them to push through when the teams haven't even engaged, or most of the reds are alive and I'm not going to do that.  What I am going to do though and expect my team to do, is to exploit a flank that has collapsed to get behind to the arty and ridgelines while the rest of the tanks on that side try to flank the front line.

The Sheridan and WZ-132-1 are examples of lights which are better suited to a psuedomedium role, whereas something like a T100 is suited to an active scouting role.

 

The AMX 50b and 113 are examples of heavies which do not perform the “immovable object” role particularly well.

 

The Obj 268 v4 and OBJ 263 are examples of TDs with crap guns that make up for it in other ways. The T110E4 is arguably the best heavy tank in the game, and is technically a TD. 

 

Arty I won’t comment on; as they say, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all” :trollface: But that is just at tier 10, and only a selection of vehicles; most tanks in the game have things they excell at and suck at, and playstyles they support, those are more important than their class. Grouping a Tiger 1 and a T29 as basically the same would be ridiculous. 



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ThunderChickenX #24 Posted 30 December 2018 - 08:21 PM

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View PostxCanonfodder, on 30 December 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

 

So I should be ok with heavies sitting farther back than cameo based TDs, mediums that are being the only tank seen by the opponents trying to play peek-a-boom against heavies and TD's, lights that are not trying to get vision?  I'm not trying to be snarky, these are honest points that I'm trying to understand.

 

I also don't use voice chat.  I've always had a problem with voice in any online game (especially on console, where open mics are the standard), and I'm not going to change that for this game.  So no screaming from me, just seething frustration at my screen, haha. 

You don’t need to be okay with anything your team or the enemy team does, all you need to do is play around it. The only person you can control is yourself, everyone else you can only attempt to manipulate.



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N7EasierPilot31 #25 Posted 30 December 2018 - 09:06 PM

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+1. only thing i can add at the moment is: Arty's 1st order of business = counter-battery. nothing can effect a battle more than stripping the other team of their arty, except maybe a YOLOing indestructible(due to skewed RNG) auto-loading OP light -lol!:)

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DefiantSpurr #26 Posted 30 December 2018 - 09:32 PM

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View PostThunderChickenX, on 30 December 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

Imo there’s no point grouping roles by tank class past the early learning stages, they play too differently. It’s better to understand a tank’s individual strengths and weaknesses, as well as how those interact with different playstyles. Also, lights/fast mediums need to be significantly more careful about slipping past the front lines than most people seem to believe. TDs, Arty, base campers, people turning around, etc. are all serious threats to a light who thinks they have the run-of-the-mill just because they got past the front lines. Being alone is always dangerous.

Yeah I agree with this.

Concentrate on each tanks strengths and weaknesses.

Some tanks clearly are not what their classes suggest they are.

Also play them to your own strengths.

 


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xCanonfodder #27 Posted 30 December 2018 - 10:05 PM

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It does seem like some people are missing the point of this post.  It's not to tell people that they're playing their tanks wrong.  It's to ask if my preconceived notions of how tanks should be played as a general rule (with exceptions as always) is wrong.

 

I'm not one of those who are going to be raging over mics because that Tiger 1 is sitting in the back not being in the frontlines.  I'm not going to rage over the mic at all.  

 

Should I be expecting that Churchill III to be guarding the SPGs?  Should I expect the Panther to be pushing ahead of the front to get vision?  Should I be expecting a  Comet to be sitting behind our front line, sniping out exposed tanks?  Are these behaviors that I should be expecting from these tanks?  If so, then why should anyone, including myself, expect anything else from me?  


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Pontiac Pat #28 Posted 30 December 2018 - 10:26 PM

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Your pre-conceived notions are a good starting point.  You only have 2k battles, so you are still learning and this thread is a very good attempt to understand the meta a little better.  I congratulate you on that!

 

For your own play, you should learn what YOUR tank does best and try to play that role whenever the map/teams allow.  Playing your tank's best role will generally yield the best results.  Just understand that a LOT of tanks don't fit the role generally associated with their class, so you'll have to get a feel for each tank as you play it.  The forum is also a good place to ask about how to play X tank or Y map.  The team comes into this in that a tank may need to play a less than ideal role because there's nobody on the team that can do it better.  For example, if you're a heavium but there are no true heavies on your team then you'll have to adapt to fill that role.  If you are a medium with great view range and you have no lights then you may have to play as a heavy scout.  You'll learn to use that 30 seconds before the match starts to look over the team list, size up each team's strength/weakness and decide how you need to play to get the most out of that match.  That comes with experience.  Very few have a solid feel for it before playing 10k battles.


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Pontiac Pat #29 Posted 30 December 2018 - 10:47 PM

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One other thing I forgot - Tier.  Tier matters.  Most tanks will have to behave very differently when top tier vs when bottom tier.  General rule is when top tier you should be more aggressive and bear more of the load for the team.  When bottom tier it's just the opposite.  Mid tier depends a lot on the exact matchup.

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Jope2209 #30 Posted 30 December 2018 - 10:48 PM

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View PostxCanonfodder, on 30 December 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

It does seem like some people are missing the point of this post.  It's not to tell people that they're playing their tanks wrong.  It's to ask if my preconceived notions of how tanks should be played as a general rule (with exceptions as always) is wrong.

 

I'm not one of those who are going to be raging over mics because that Tiger 1 is sitting in the back not being in the frontlines.  I'm not going to rage over the mic at all.  

 

Should I be expecting that Churchill III to be guarding the SPGs?  Should I expect the Panther to be pushing ahead of the front to get vision?  Should I be expecting a  Comet to be sitting behind our front line, sniping out exposed tanks?  Are these behaviors that I should be expecting from these tanks?  If so, then why should anyone, including myself, expect anything else from me?  

 

Your classification is in place since tanks in game are divided in 5 classes indeed. But there are some ''gray'' areas where everything just isn't black and white. For example the game will announce that ''All of our scouts have been destroyed.'', only after last light and/or medium tank has been destroyed. So, medium is a scout among other things.

There is no strict heavium class, but many tanks can be called something in between classes. I saw people playing arty like assault gun with some success, it's weird but they do so.

I salute you for trying to learn. Cheers.

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The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25, M7, T-50

 

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Pontiac Pat #31 Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:05 PM

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View PostxCanonfodder, on 30 December 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

Should I be expecting that Churchill III to be guarding the SPGs?  Should I expect the Panther to be pushing ahead of the front to get vision?  Should I be expecting a  Comet to be sitting behind our front line, sniping out exposed tanks?  Are these behaviors that I should be expecting from these tanks?  If so, then why should anyone, including myself, expect anything else from me?  

For the record, anyone 'guarding the SPGs' can be safely ignored as a fully baked potato.  SPGs don't need guarding, they need you to push and maintain a solid perimeter at mid-map or beyond so they can safely do their work.

Yes, mediums and sometimes even heavies will play forward spotter, especially if they can get hull down in a defensible position.

Comets, and other such soft mediums, will often start off playing sniper then move forward to flank once an avenue is cleared for them to exploit.

It's a fine balance between being too aggressive and too passive.  Only you know your and your tank's and crew's ability levels.  When you become aware enough to know just when and how much to push you'll be well on your way to excellent play.  Don't feel bad about trying and failing.  We all have those games.  It is far better than sitting at spawn waiting for everyone else to die.


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xCanonfodder #32 Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:24 PM

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View PostJope2209, on 30 December 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

 

Your classification is in place since tanks in game are divided in 5 classes indeed. But there are some ''gray'' areas where everything just isn't black and white. For example the game will announce that ''All of our scouts have been destroyed.'', only after last light and/or medium tank has been destroyed. So, medium is a scout among other things.

There is no strict heavium class, but many tanks can be called something in between classes. I saw people playing arty like assault gun with some success, it's weird but they do so.

I salute you for trying to learn. Cheers.

:honoring:

 

I'm completely ok with trying to memorize the exceptions to the rules (like I know that the Tiger 1, and to a lesser extent, all Tigers are not going to try to sit on the front lines and trade blows with other heavies), and some people have great success playing completely atypical (like that shotgun arty you mentioned).

 

I also know to expect that even tanks that are in the same class of tank will play differently (if not, then what's the point of all this variety).  But I do expect them to conform to some basic classifications, and I started this thread to confirm if my notions were correct.  

 

I am getting some conflicting responses though (which I'm not surprised about, this being a forum of individuals instead of a hive mind). It seems like there are enough exceptions to any generalizations that any notions that I have won't help me to learn a new tank or what to expect from other tankers (both on my team and my opponents).  


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Pontiac Pat #33 Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:38 PM

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View PostxCanonfodder, on 30 December 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

It seems like there are enough exceptions to any generalizations that any notions that I have won't help me to learn a new tank or what to expect from other tankers (both on my team and my opponents).  

As for learning a new tank - a stat comparison with the stereotypical tanks of that class/role will usually tell you whether the tank in question differs substantially.

 

As for what to expect of others - the rule of thumb is to expect your own team to play badly and the reds to get it right.  The only team you can truly rely on is team yellow. (your platoon mates)


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xCanonfodder #34 Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:39 PM

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View PostPontiac Pat, on 30 December 2018 - 05:05 PM, said:

For the record, anyone 'guarding the SPGs' can be safely ignored as a fully baked potato.  SPGs don't need guarding, they need you to push and maintain a solid perimeter at mid-map or beyond so they can safely do their work.
 

 

This was me being polite on those who sit in spawn, move about as far as SPGs from spawn, or only sit in the defensive cap circle.  :trollface:


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M4ntiX #35 Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:40 PM

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View PostxCanonfodder, on 30 December 2018 - 11:24 PM, said:

 

I'm completely ok with trying to memorize the exceptions to the rules (like I know that the Tiger 1, and to a lesser extent, all Tigers are not going to try to sit on the front lines and trade blows with other heavies), and some people have great success playing completely atypical (like that shotgun arty you mentioned).

 

I also know to expect that even tanks that are in the same class of tank will play differently (if not, then what's the point of all this variety).  But I do expect them to conform to some basic classifications, and I started this thread to confirm if my notions were correct.  

 

I am getting some conflicting responses though (which I'm not surprised about, this being a forum of individuals instead of a hive mind). It seems like there are enough exceptions to any generalizations that any notions that I have won't help me to learn a new tank or what to expect from other tankers (both on my team and my opponents).  

 

OK in short no. Just like in real life, you shouldn't expect anything. Or, expect the unexpected. Think of this game as 1 vs. 29 rather than 15 vs. 15.

 

Yes it is a team game, but as you have discovered yourself by now, you cannot rely on your team.

Of course, there are situations in which you will find your teammates helpful, and there will be those in which you will help them. But in the end it is how you play the game that only really matters. You have to learn how to play with good teams and bad teams (the latter may be the majority, unfortunately) and adapt to the situation as it unfolds.

 

If a TD decides to yolo, for example, and there is nothing you can do to stop him. Use it to your advantage, you can't save him anyways, he's gone. Farm damage, read the map, see what enemies he's spotted on the way, etc.

If most of your team decides to camp, provide spotting assistance for them. Or if they all decide to push, push with them and win one of the flanks quickly, maybe start capping to put more pressure on the ememy, etc.

 

What I am trying to say is, you may think you should expect certain game-play behaviors, but really you can't. From my experience...

If you assume the TD sitting behind you will cover you, you will die. If you assume 5 of your teammates will easily deal with the 3 enemies on one of the flanks, you will die.

If you spot an enemy artillery and think it will be taken out quickly, unless you take it out yourself, you get spotted, shot by that arty and you die.

If you're holding a corner and your teammate is holding the other one, do not assume he will succeed or you will die.

There is more, but meh... Ain't nobody got time for that. ;)

 


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Sledge1Swede #36 Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:40 PM

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Just think of it like ok it is a game you are supposed to play at the objectives but nobody does cause they either dont know how or they are all janked up about there own superiority and just have to show there own greatness.

 

WG have set up a enviromeant for us to hand them some money and left us to have a unsuperviced kindergarden whitout any handbook either on there tanks or maps and on top of it we have to play against and with much bigger boys and try to protect us against hellfire.

 

I say play for fun kill or get killed do your best atleast try.

 

 

It is not a competetive game and the teamspirit is long gone.



TheOnlyTrueNoob #37 Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:59 PM

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To me, you should only ever expect the worst from your team, never do anything that will get you to rely on your team, treat your teammates as something for the reds to shoot at that isn’t you, letting you farm damage with minimal danger (because that’s exactly how your teammates will treat you). Always try to exploit your teammates stupidity for your own gain, whether that be a suicidal green who rushes headfirst into the enemy and spots them before dying moments later, or a green who exposes themselves as easy damage for the reds, allowing you to farm as they all focus your teammate.


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deadman1921 #38 Posted 31 December 2018 - 12:19 AM

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View PostxCanonfodder, on 30 December 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

 

 

I'm not trying to tell them how to play their tanks (and I don't use a mic, and have voice turned off), I'm just trying to understand what is expected of myself and others.  If we're not supposed to fill roles, then I guess I'm going to the only vehicle that has their role baked into their gameplay, SPGs.  

 

Roger that.

You are on the right track. 

 


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xCanonfodder #39 Posted 31 December 2018 - 12:27 AM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 30 December 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

 

OK in short no. Just like in real life, you shouldn't expect anything. Or, expect the unexpected. Think of this game as 1 vs. 29 rather than 15 vs. 15.

 

Yes it is a team game, but as you have discovered yourself by now, you cannot rely on your team.

Of course, there are situations in which you will find your teammates helpful, and there will be those in which you will help them. But in the end it is how you play the game that only really matters. You have to learn how to play with good teams and bad teams (the latter may be the majority, unfortunately) and adapt to the situation as it unfolds.

 

If a TD decides to yolo, for example, and there is nothing you can do to stop him. Use it to your advantage, you can't save him anyways, he's gone. Farm damage, read the map, see what enemies he's spotted on the way, etc.

If most of your team decides to camp, provide spotting assistance for them. Or if they all decide to push, push with them and win one of the flanks quickly, maybe start capping to put more pressure on the ememy, etc.

 

What I am trying to say is, you may think you should expect certain game-play behaviors, but really you can't. From my experience...

If you assume the TD sitting behind you will cover you, you will die. If you assume 5 of your teammates will easily deal with the 3 enemies on one of the flanks, you will die.

If you spot an enemy artillery and think it will be taken out quickly, unless you take it out yourself, you get spotted, shot by that arty and you die.

If you're holding a corner and your teammate is holding the other one, do not assume he will succeed or you will die.

There is more, but meh... Ain't nobody got time for that. ;)

 

 

View Postsledge6301, on 30 December 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Just think of it like ok it is a game you are supposed to play at the objectives but nobody does cause they either dont know how or they are all janked up about there own superiority and just have to show there own greatness.

 

WG have set up a enviromeant for us to hand them some money and left us to have a unsuperviced kindergarden whitout any handbook either on there tanks or maps and on top of it we have to play against and with much bigger boys and try to protect us against hellfire.

 

I say play for fun kill or get killed do your best atleast try.

 

 

It is not a competetive game and the teamspirit is long gone.

 

View PostSeagullOfEvil, on 30 December 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

To me, you should only ever expect the worst from your team, never do anything that will get you to rely on your team, treat your teammates as something for the reds to shoot at that isn’t you, letting you farm damage with minimal danger (because that’s exactly how your teammates will treat you). Always try to exploit your teammates stupidity for your own gain, whether that be a suicidal green who rushes headfirst into the enemy and spots them before dying moments later, or a green who exposes themselves as easy damage for the reds, allowing you to farm as they all focus your teammate.

 

These all feel like sound arguments to play arty instead of any other vehicle type, and to have a garage full of them.  Either your team will protect you accidentally, or your out of the match quick to start another.

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View Postdeadman1921, on 30 December 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

Bottom line

You can’t tell others how to play the vehicle they are driving, period.

You can try but they are mostly not going to listen.
Then probably cuss you for pointing it out.

 

pretty much this, sadly not a lot care about what anyone else says they should be doing. They just wanna hang out at the base in their Russian heavy and push down the grass around the flag.






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