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RNG does not affect everyone equally


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ooo NO ONE ooo #1 Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:40 AM

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I often read "for every bad RNG roll you get a good one", "you only remember the bad ones", etc.

Lets be clear: Whilst RNG is equally applied to all tanks, it is far from being equally distributed.

Let me take the Leopard PTA as an example. A paper tank with a fabulous gun (view range, mobility are not affected by RNG, so not being discussed).

This tank has 71mm max armour. So even if every gun it faces maximum low rolls, virtually all shots will pen. Blocked is virtually always due to an auto bounce angle. RNG effect - negligible. Effect of removing RNG - virtually none.

Now its penetration: 268 average with a 201/335 spread. If facing a tank with 267 armour it will fail to pen approx 49% of the time. RNG effect - huge. Effect to removing RNG - (pen every time) so again huge.

The conclusion which therefore has to be drawn is that not only do heavily armoured tanks benefit from their effective armour over more lightly armoured counterparts , they also benefit disproportionately from RNG.


3 MoE's: Tier V: M-7, Stug III G, SU 85 - Tier VI: AMX Chaffee, AMX 12-t, M4A3E8, VK30.01.D, VK.30.02.M, VK30.01.P, JPanz IV, T 34 85, T 34 88, A 43, Chi-To, Hellcat, MT-25, Fury - Tier VII: T-71, T-20, Panther, VK.30.02.D, T-43, AMX 13 75 - Tier VIII: AMX 13 90. T-44. - Tier IX: Leopard PTA, T-54.

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Joco3000 #2 Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:43 AM

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Heavy tanks generally tend to be less accurate, and the Leopard is a speedy bugger.
As long as your moving somewhat frequently, you normalise the disparity between RNG and armour.

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ooo NO ONE ooo #3 Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:48 AM

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View PostJoco3000, on 11 January 2019 - 08:43 AM, said:

Heavy tanks generally tend to be less accurate, and the Leopard is a speedy bugger.
As long as your moving somewhat frequently, you normalise the disparity between RNG and armour.

Whilst I totally agree with play style I am discussing the effect of RNG penetration on tank classes.


3 MoE's: Tier V: M-7, Stug III G, SU 85 - Tier VI: AMX Chaffee, AMX 12-t, M4A3E8, VK30.01.D, VK.30.02.M, VK30.01.P, JPanz IV, T 34 85, T 34 88, A 43, Chi-To, Hellcat, MT-25, Fury - Tier VII: T-71, T-20, Panther, VK.30.02.D, T-43, AMX 13 75 - Tier VIII: AMX 13 90. T-44. - Tier IX: Leopard PTA, T-54.

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Vampire_Izumi #4 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:02 AM

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i have bounced a full magazine of 128mm shells on a Batchat's side before which has about the same armor, i was playing the WT auf E-100.(AP)

i also had a match where i shot at a leopard several times in my Skorpion G and failing to penetrate and only doing critical damage.(AP)

 

RNG can make even the weakest in armor tanks bounce shells.

but also, RNG can also make it where a tank that has a 20% chance to pen your armor, pen every shot due to RNG loving them.

 

RNG can effect some people heavily due to it just not being their lucky day or where you do stuff you should not be able to due to RNG, like this clip V where i manage to kill several tier 5 tanks by ammo racking them/ bouncing their shells in my armorless tier 4 medium


Edited by greenteam117, 11 January 2019 - 09:02 AM.

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swindle 321 #5 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:04 AM

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Yes but heavy tanks aren't usually as accurate and they usually have worse gun handling meaning they'll miss weak points more often and I don't think that there's a heavy tank in the game with 268mm of pen on its standard ammo, meaning that even if they do hit that weak point they are still more likely to bounce.

 

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JaRIS42 #6 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:07 AM

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So armored tank getting hit by high pen gun gets good saving throw, unarmored tank doesn't?

What am I missing here?



Skill4AUT #7 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:13 AM

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RNG sometimes is very funny. Cause HE sometimes bounce or do no dmg. Nur HE always make dmg if there is spaced Amor or Not... Cause HE explod when it get contact!    

ooo NO ONE ooo #8 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:13 AM

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View Postswindle 321, on 11 January 2019 - 09:04 AM, said:

Yes but heavy tanks aren't usually as accurate and they usually have worse gun handling meaning they'll miss weak points more often and I don't think that there's a heavy tank in the game with 268mm of pen on its standard ammo, meaning that even if they do hit that weak point they are still more likely to bounce.

I'm referring to the PTA V a heavily armoured tank. The armoured tank doesn't need to aim for a weak spot, it will pen it anywhere.


3 MoE's: Tier V: M-7, Stug III G, SU 85 - Tier VI: AMX Chaffee, AMX 12-t, M4A3E8, VK30.01.D, VK.30.02.M, VK30.01.P, JPanz IV, T 34 85, T 34 88, A 43, Chi-To, Hellcat, MT-25, Fury - Tier VII: T-71, T-20, Panther, VK.30.02.D, T-43, AMX 13 75 - Tier VIII: AMX 13 90. T-44. - Tier IX: Leopard PTA, T-54.

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ooo NO ONE ooo #9 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:16 AM

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View PostJaRIS42, on 11 January 2019 - 09:07 AM, said:

So armored tank getting hit by high pen gun gets good saving throw, unarmored tank doesn't?

What am I missing here?

A lot. It doesn't matter how low the heavy rolls, it will still be more than needed. The PTA (in my example) needs to hit its average or high roll to pen.


3 MoE's: Tier V: M-7, Stug III G, SU 85 - Tier VI: AMX Chaffee, AMX 12-t, M4A3E8, VK30.01.D, VK.30.02.M, VK30.01.P, JPanz IV, T 34 85, T 34 88, A 43, Chi-To, Hellcat, MT-25, Fury - Tier VII: T-71, T-20, Panther, VK.30.02.D, T-43, AMX 13 75 - Tier VIII: AMX 13 90. T-44. - Tier IX: Leopard PTA, T-54.

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R35T NO MORE #10 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:22 AM

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And some of the time you will high roll and could pen an E-100s turret face with your AP. You point out the 49% of the time where RNG would affect you negatively yet ignore the 51%. 

 

RNG affects a heavies gun just as much as it does the Leo. RNG also affects its armour in the way you mentioned (regarding enemy pen rolls). Yet it doesn't affect the Leo's mobility, view range or camo. 

 

1 aspect of the Leo is affect by RNG (the gun), 2 aspects are affected for the heavy (gun and armour). The heavy has it worse. 



Camelman Fin #11 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:24 AM

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I had evenly distributed super bad rng day on sunday :D my dayli wn8 has been something to uni-super uni and i have grindet same tanks every day, but on sunday my wn8 on 27 games was 1526, still my winrate was 60% so its basically same as other days, so i didnt get only total potato teams and that wn8 is not because of them. The reason why it is so low is that not even single one of those tanks i have played everyday now did hit on anything, every shot i did shoot went over, derbd on ground, missed on left or right, went only for tracks etc. and it happened on every situation from sninping to brawling nothing hit were they should or if some shots were magically hitting they bounced on tanks that shouldent bounce anything. So it was nice day

JaRIS42 #12 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:26 AM

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I still don't see why this is a problem, isn't that the point of having thick armor? The PTA needs to avoid being hit. If as you say the PTA could pen (almost) every time due to no RNG then the armor would be a lot less useful.

 

Might be more realistic (arguably) without but I'd rather have a little randomness and saving throws than quick twitch unicums clearing battlefields in 3 minutes.



Camelman Fin #13 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:27 AM

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View Postgreenteam117, on 11 January 2019 - 11:02 AM, said:

i have bounced a full magazine of 128mm shells on a Batchat's side before which has about the same armor, i was playing the WT auf E-100.(AP)

i also had a match where i shot at a leopard several times in my Skorpion G and failing to penetrate and only doing critical damage.(AP)

 

RNG can make even the weakest in armor tanks bounce shells.

but also, RNG can also make it where a tank that has a 20% chance to pen your armor, pen every shot due to RNG loving them.

 

RNG can effect some people heavily due to it just not being their lucky day or where you do stuff you should not be able to due to RNG, like this clip V where i manage to kill several tier 5 tanks by ammo racking them/ bouncing their shells in my armorless tier 4 medium

 

I had once fun to bounce full 6 round clip premium ammo from a side of the tier 8 premium mutant with waffle :D it was in front of me sideways not moving at 150meters and every shot bounced on its side and i was aiming right in the middle of the tank

JaRIS42 #14 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:32 AM

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View PostR35T NO MORE, on 11 January 2019 - 09:22 AM, said:

And some of the time you will high roll and could pen an E-100s turret face with your AP. You point out the 49% of the time where RNG would affect you negatively yet ignore the 51%. 

 

RNG affects a heavies gun just as much as it does the Leo. RNG also affects its armour in the way you mentioned (regarding enemy pen rolls). Yet it doesn't affect the Leo's mobility, view range or camo. 

 

1 aspect of the Leo is affect by RNG (the gun), 2 aspects are affected for the heavy (gun and armour). The heavy has it worse. 

 

I would tend to agree, maneuverability is a lot more predictable and reliable than armor and accuracy (more so since the tanks were made less tippy).



ooo NO ONE ooo #15 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:39 AM

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View PostR35T NO MORE, on 11 January 2019 - 09:22 AM, said:

1. And some of the time you will high roll and could pen an E-100s turret face with your AP. You point out the 49% of the time where RNG would affect you negatively yet ignore the 51%. 

 

2. RNG affects a heavies gun just as much as it does the Leo. RNG also affects its armour in the way you mentioned (regarding enemy pen rolls). Yet it doesn't affect the Leo's mobility, view range or camo. 

 

3. 1 aspect of the Leo is affect by RNG (the gun), 2 aspects are affected for the heavy (gun and armour). The heavy has it worse. 

1. I am not ignoring, I am pointing out the mathematical fact.

2. I am discussing RNG taking the leo as an example. I am not questioning the tank, its one of my favourites.

3. The only reason it has no effect as you call it is because it doesn't have any.


3 MoE's: Tier V: M-7, Stug III G, SU 85 - Tier VI: AMX Chaffee, AMX 12-t, M4A3E8, VK30.01.D, VK.30.02.M, VK30.01.P, JPanz IV, T 34 85, T 34 88, A 43, Chi-To, Hellcat, MT-25, Fury - Tier VII: T-71, T-20, Panther, VK.30.02.D, T-43, AMX 13 75 - Tier VIII: AMX 13 90. T-44. - Tier IX: Leopard PTA, T-54.

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ooo NO ONE ooo #16 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:41 AM

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View PostJaRIS42, on 11 January 2019 - 09:26 AM, said:

I still don't see why this is a problem, isn't that the point of having thick armor? The PTA needs to avoid being hit. If as you say the PTA could pen (almost) every time due to no RNG then the armor would be a lot less useful.

 

Might be more realistic (arguably) without but I'd rather have a little randomness and saving throws than quick twitch unicums clearing battlefields in 3 minutes.

Again, I'm not arguing RNG should be removed or even altered. I am stating that RNG has differing effect depending on armour.


Edited by LordAnonII, 11 January 2019 - 09:41 AM.

3 MoE's: Tier V: M-7, Stug III G, SU 85 - Tier VI: AMX Chaffee, AMX 12-t, M4A3E8, VK30.01.D, VK.30.02.M, VK30.01.P, JPanz IV, T 34 85, T 34 88, A 43, Chi-To, Hellcat, MT-25, Fury - Tier VII: T-71, T-20, Panther, VK.30.02.D, T-43, AMX 13 75 - Tier VIII: AMX 13 90. T-44. - Tier IX: Leopard PTA, T-54.

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R35T NO MORE #17 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:44 AM

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View PostLordAnonII, on 11 January 2019 - 09:39 AM, said:

1. I am not ignoring, I am pointing out the mathematical fact.

2. I am discussing RNG taking the leo as an example. I am not questioning the tank, its one of my favourites.

3. The only reason it has no effect as you call it is because it doesn't have any.

You are missing the point. RNG has more chances to screw over the heavy than it does the fast medium. Meaning the heavy suffers more than the medium, as the mediums survivability aren't affected by RNG at all, just the offensive capability. Both are affected for the heavy. 



Vampire_Izumi #18 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:50 AM

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View PostCamelman Fin, on 11 January 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

 

I had once fun to bounce full 6 round clip premium ammo from a side of the tier 8 premium mutant with waffle :D it was in front of me sideways not moving at 150meters and every shot bounced on its side and i was aiming right in the middle of the tank

 

that is EXACTLY what happened to me in the waffentrager Auf E-100, maybe crews kept forgetting to replace the Practice rounds with Live ones? :D

Edited by greenteam117, 11 January 2019 - 09:50 AM.

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JaRIS42 #19 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:52 AM

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View PostLordAnonII, on 11 January 2019 - 09:41 AM, said:

Again, I'm not arguing RNG should be removed or even altered. I am stating that RNG has differing effect depending on armour.

 

Fair enough then, this is quite true :)

 

I apologies for being unnecessarily argumentative.



swindle 321 #20 Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:52 AM

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View PostLordAnonII, on 11 January 2019 - 09:13 AM, said:

I'm referring to the PTA V a heavily armoured tank. The armoured tank doesn't need to aim for a weak spot, it will pen it anywhere.

 

Ah I got ya now. Yeah it will pen it anywhere but in live game play trying to go 1 vs 1 against any tank in a Leo PTA is ill advised, if you're forced into that situation in the later stages of the game then you have to try and fight your fight and use your tank to its strengths. For instance you would try to keep the fight at long range where possible making you more difficult spot, and to hit, try to maximize your gun depression to give a smaller target and keep moving to try and force a miss. 

 

There will be situations on a lot maps where you can't do that, in those spots you're best off setting up little ambushes then relocating and going again. But all in all if you find yourself in a situation where you're having to trade 1 for 1 with a heavy in a Leo PTA, you messed up. 

 

I realize that none of what I mentioned above has anything to do with pen and armour but that's kind of my point, you play your tank in a way that suits it, you fight on your terms.


 

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