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Do we all get an equal chance of fair MM?

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Jope2209 #1 Posted 01 March 2019 - 10:07 AM

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I know official response would be yes, it's fair and no hidden scripts or any other ''rigging'' method used. But, it does look pretty amazing that in some cases (tanks) you get such a horrible and frustrating series of bad teams.

Last night I was grinding some of my active turretless TD grinds, and I must admit this is the class I don't really like much, actualy least preffered class would be arty followed by turretless TD's. But, I'm using all avaiable xp Ops to speed up grinds on both of these SPG classes, not so loved ones.

So, I've played my french ARL V39 (horrible vehicle) and after having a 3 win streak thanks to String Theory, I've managed to finish it and sold it right away. Then I bought tier VII, AMX AC mle 46, and assigned same crew from the previous one (solid crew with 9 perks), so I said let's try get the second package upgrade (first one was already unlocked). I needed some 14k xp to do that, which shouldn't be that hard considering all xp boosting Ops atm. I was thinking 2 maybe 3 matches would suffice, but instead I've played 12 (!) and had only 2 wins during that period.

Ended the session with 16.67% WR on AC 46, and 35% WR for that day (played only TD's). :sceptic:

 

So, 2 out of 12 for a brand new vehicle.I thought we were supposed to get that ''honeymoon MM'' for the first couple of matches with new vehicle. I guess that's not a thing anymore.

 

*Puts tinfoil hat on*

Now, when you buy a new tank from the TT, this is what really happens. Instead of ''honeymoon MM'' you get ''potato sack MM'' where you and your stock package tank are placed into team with 7 or 8 other stock tanks and players with WR under 48%. This is activated by hidden scripts running in MM which detect your stock tank and put it in team with 8 other stock TT tanks. The goal is to frustrate player up to a point where you reach for your CC and buy some free xp to get out of that misery. Another hidden script detects your XP boosts on and whether or not you have Long Haul Op turned on or off. If you're running Long Haul Op, you're automatically recognized as someone who's after their gold and your MM gets additionally weighted, so not only you end up in potato sack team, YOU GET TO BE THE BOTTOM OF POTATO SACK TEAM...how effin' nice is that???

 

I had to say it, it's beyond logics that so many series of bad games can happen in such a short period of time. Couple of days earlier I've had a 5 out of 21 WR on AMX 50 100 and concluded that day with 25% WR (!?). I think this was my all time record low. Team after team was steamroll after steamroll, while being bottom (or mid at best) tier in every game.

 

 


 

The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25, M7, T-50

 

New updated poll - please take a minute and cast your votes for the least preferred map in rotation (2019)


f1mitku #2 Posted 01 March 2019 - 10:17 AM

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In my view and my experience there should be some “black list” of players that are subscribed to the underdogs team in vast majority of the battles. Otherwise it couldn’t happen in that long series of battles to be always in the underdogs team - with less top tier tanks; city map with 2 (or more) times less well armored tanks against only support cardboard ones; lower tier platoon than the reds etc. unbalanced MM cases. 

M4ntiX #3 Posted 01 March 2019 - 10:36 AM

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Nope. As soon as you log in, Jope2209.exe is called in the background to give you a less favorable mm due to experience and battle history stored in Jope2209.log.

Of course, Jope2209.ini has an expression that adjusts your mm luck based on the amount of premium time you have left. If you're a free to play player, Jope2209.sol is called.

Fact.

;)

Jope2209 #4 Posted 01 March 2019 - 10:36 AM

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View Postf1mitku, on 01 March 2019 - 10:17 AM, said:

In my view and my experience there should be some “black list” of players that are subscribed to the underdogs team in vast majority of the battles. Otherwise it couldn’t happen in that long series of battles to be always in the underdogs team - with less top tier tanks; city map with 2 (or more) times less well armored tanks against only support cardboard ones; lower tier platoon than the reds etc. unbalanced MM cases. 

 

I would buy that ''random bad series'' explanation, but the frequency is very odd lately. I mean, if that can happen every 3 or 4 days, than the opposite case of extremely favorable MM can happen too, the chances for that would be even right? Instead what I see is occasional winning streaks of 2 to 3 games every couple of days. It looks like chances for that improve if you play PMM premium tanks, but since I'm after STE my goal is to grind out all tier X's. Hence I'm playing all classes and I'm in a stock tanks every now and then, but having steamroll matches in a 10 games series gets old pretty fast.

 

The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25, M7, T-50

 

New updated poll - please take a minute and cast your votes for the least preferred map in rotation (2019)


Jope2209 #5 Posted 01 March 2019 - 10:43 AM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 01 March 2019 - 10:36 AM, said:

Nope. As soon as you log in, Jope2209.exe is called in the background to give you a less favorable mm due to experience and battle history stored in Jope2209.log.

Of course, Jope2209.ini has an expression that adjusts your mm luck based on the amount of premium time you have left. If you're a free to play player, Jope2209.sol is called.

Fact.

;)

 

Thanks for detailed explanation of the process, lol.

Don't you think there must be a better way to balance teams? I believe you also appreciate matches lasting over 5 minutes with a tight ending over 15:1 wipeouts, no matter who wins. These wipeout matches are a thing, everyone can see that, we can go on and on about MM, but this is the fact.


 

The 13. (Tiger) Kompanie, of Panzer Regiment Großdeutschland, reported on the performance of the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56, when their Tigers engaged the T-34: "First round hits were usually achieved at ranges between 800 to 1,000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer Granate (they are referring to the PzGr. 39 APCBC ammunition) absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor, and usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the T-34 tank. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1,500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition" (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.).

3 MoE tanks: T-34, Pz IVH, Tiger I, Pz.Kpfw. T 25, M7, T-50

 

New updated poll - please take a minute and cast your votes for the least preferred map in rotation (2019)


Tempest fox3 #6 Posted 01 March 2019 - 11:03 AM

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You always get the bottom of the potato sack because that's was 95% of the players in game are.

But you probably can't carry in the AC46 as well as you normally would.

War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

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Very Classy #7 Posted 01 March 2019 - 12:22 PM

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When I am having a frustrating streak of bad MM RNG, I try to stick to one tier, one vehicle. If I bounce around too much, I feel like I'm adding too many different conditions to something random. In other words, sticking to one vehicle shows how the random kind of evens out. 

 

I'm not sure why folks have been harping on Kill Score and Blowouts. It's like the current forumers have never read The Ruthless Mathematics of WoT. This isn't an even strength game. If every time a team scored a goal the opposition had to sit a player, how many close football games would there be? The early goal would be a huge advantage. The early free kill in WoT is huge... it sets the stage. I rate how competitive a match was by its length :girl:. 15-3, but it took 8 minutes to achieve, is a better match than a 15-8 match that was over in 4 minutes... in my opinion.



Sparrowhawk1970 #8 Posted 01 March 2019 - 01:29 PM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 01 March 2019 - 02:36 AM, said:

Nope. As soon as you log in, Jope2209.exe is called in the background to give you a less favorable mm due to experience and battle history stored in Jope2209.log.

Of course, Jope2209.ini has an expression that adjusts your mm luck based on the amount of premium time you have left. If you're a free to play player, Jope2209.sol is called.

Fact.

;)

^^This^^ makes me want to wrap a 2nd layer of tinfoil around my head!!!



killer etzi0 #9 Posted 01 March 2019 - 01:43 PM

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I think the more accurate statement/question would be "Do we all get an equal chance of UN-FAIR MM".

 

And the answer to that is easy... "YES we do!"


"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat."

 

Ronald Reagan
 

 


Lysith3a #10 Posted 01 March 2019 - 02:13 PM

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I think it’s most likely fair. It’s incredibly frustrating when you find yourself in a string of useless teams though.

 

Minutes into the game and you know you’ve got a bad one - sometimes it doesn’t matter and you can still have a good game yourself. Other times you just question why you bother.

 

Honestly, some of the absolute bogwoppets I’ve seen this morning....


I aim to misbehave


mikkoj #11 Posted 01 March 2019 - 02:21 PM

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It sure feels rigged from time to time. 

3-marks: Chaffee, PZ 5/4, VK 30.02 M, Cromwell knight, 34-88, T26E4, Churchill 3, T29, E75, conqueror, ELC, snakebite, T32  (13 tanks)

2-marks: lycan, amx chaffee, Brazilian bulldog, bulldog, T49, Ru 251, amx 13 90, WZ- 132A, Sheridan, T44, CDC, sta1, type59, M46, pta leo, t54, T1, bogatyr, kv2, hammer, is, tiger 2, löwe, kv4, m103, st1, T10, jagdpanther, e25, t28, t30,E8, gorynch (33 tanks)

Much wow, not mark hunter.


SPUK4U #12 Posted 01 March 2019 - 02:41 PM

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Do we all get an equal chance of fair MM?   No, it depends on MM weight of the tank you chose to use and amount of players waiting.

Example: If you are using V/IV it unfairly classifies you are tier VI heavy tank and if you play badly with it you are more likely the reason why the team loses.

 


- Ask, Observe, Learn and Improve -

Reaper RUN #13 Posted 01 March 2019 - 03:07 PM

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I was literally about to make a whole thread about the mm, about 90% of the games I play I'm always bottom tier, not only bottom tier I'm the ONLY tank 2 tiers below everyone else. last match I was in the SU100Y only tier 6 against only tier 8's, obviously I did 0 damage over 8 shots, the other match I was in the capt Tiger II I was the only tier 8 against all tier 10's. really starting to piss me off.


 


MilitaryGoose05 #14 Posted 01 March 2019 - 03:10 PM

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I have no idea, but yes, it definitely feels rigged.

 

7 losses 1 win today.

 

Similar the last 3 days I've played actually. My win rate has collapsed from roughly 50/50 down to 20/80. I'm still doing mostly okay in all the games, it's just Fail Team after Fail Team.

 

I wonder if quitting the game and restarting it might help things. WHERE IS MY TIN FOIL HAT!


Edited by MilitaryGoose05, 01 March 2019 - 03:12 PM.


M4ntiX #15 Posted 01 March 2019 - 03:11 PM

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View PostReaper RUN, on 01 March 2019 - 03:07 PM, said:

I was literally about to make a whole thread about the mm, about 90% of the games I play I'm always bottom tier, not only bottom tier I'm the ONLY tank 2 tiers below everyone else. last match I was in the SU100Y only tier 6 against only tier 8's, obviously I did 0 damage over 8 shots, the other match I was in the capt Tiger II I was the only tier 8 against all tier 10's. really starting to piss me off.

 

Just a friendly word of caution, before you make claims like that remember Max here has full access to your battle history and can tell you how many times exactly you were bottom tier. :)

MilitaryGoose05 #16 Posted 01 March 2019 - 03:12 PM

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View PostReaper RUN, on 01 March 2019 - 03:07 PM, said:

I was literally about to make a whole thread about the mm, about 90% of the games I play I'm always bottom tier, not only bottom tier I'm the ONLY tank 2 tiers below everyone else. last match I was in the SU100Y only tier 6 against only tier 8's, obviously I did 0 damage over 8 shots, the other match I was in the capt Tiger II I was the only tier 8 against all tier 10's. really starting to piss me off.

 

 

Those are the worst, yes. At least when you're low tier and there's a fair dispersion of other low tier tanks, you feel like you have a chance. But when there's literally maybe one other tank on Red that you might be able to damage if you get lucky, it's just zero fun. You're just in that match as an xp pinata.



SaltyMcD #17 Posted 01 March 2019 - 03:15 PM

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View PostSparrowhawk1970, on 01 March 2019 - 07:29 AM, said:

^^This^^ makes me want to wrap a 2nd layer of tinfoil around my head!!!

 

 I have a hax that removes Jope2209.exe from the files .  Gift me a Party Platter and I’ll mail you the floppy disk .

“ Never trust a forum member that uses an Anime profile pic .”      - SaltyMcD 


Reaper RUN #18 Posted 01 March 2019 - 03:35 PM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 01 March 2019 - 03:11 PM, said:

 

Just a friendly word of caution, before you make claims like that remember Max here has full access to your battle history and can tell you how many times exactly you were bottom tier. :)

 

Feel free lol, I have multiple screenshots, only time I'm not bottom tier like that is when I play tier <5, though tier 5 doesn't matter, just had a tier 7 game in my Capt KV-1 and got 1.9k base xp with 2.4k damage :teethhappy:. I'ts always the tanks which struggle higher tiers that I'm always the bottom lol, all the tanks which I don't mind like the T32-Proto I'm always top tier even though it handles tier 10 pretty well.

this is what made me actually type the original reply:


Edited by Reaper RUN, 01 March 2019 - 03:39 PM.


 


Very Classy #19 Posted 01 March 2019 - 03:47 PM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 01 March 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

 

Just a friendly word of caution, before you make claims like that remember Max here has full access to your battle history and can tell you how many times exactly you were bottom tier. :)

 

That would be interesting. Hit me with muh distribution, MaxChaos24! Needs to know. I would be fairly shocked (not taking into account players that mostly play Tier X, IX, PMM vehicles) to find anything different than 33% bottom, 33% mid, 33% top for players.

 

When it comes to anecdotal tales of poor MM, folks have that "selective memory."



Hypocrite #20 Posted 01 March 2019 - 04:49 PM

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Here’s the problem with any theory that the Matchmaker is rigged to ensure that you (or any other player) goes on an extended losing or winning streak:
 
If you believe this then you must also be willing to state that:
 
1) the matchmaker is the best programmed skill-based matchmaker in the history of gaming, able to place every player in precisely the scenario and team composition to guarantee their particular team wins or loses every individual battle in order to keep their winning percentage at the precise, predetermined level they are allowed in a minimal amount of time at all hours day or night regardless of which players are online.
 
And
 
2) all battles and battle results are predetermine, rendering all statistics and appearance of skill utterly moot as winning, losing, damage, kills, and all other measurables in the game would have to be tightly controlled in order to ensure that no player was able to interfere with the matchmaking system. The system would have to know in advance everything that was going to occur in the match, and whether a player would AFK, camp in the back, YOLO scout, or die in the first 2 minutes.
 
If you honestly believe that the above two statements are true then there is no option other than to quit playing the game; you are being manipulated and exploited, and nothing you do in the game truly matters. At the same time the developers would deserve high-praise for the incredible technical achievement they’ve crafted: the first system that not only is manipulating events toward a predetermined outcome but takes into account individual player behavioral tendencies in order to ensure that it still appears that what the players were doing was not predetermined. After all – if you get distracted and have to answer the phone in the middle of the match, the game has to readjust on the fly to ensure that each player still deals the correct amount of damage and dies at the correct times to ensure the correct outcome – not just for you, but for all 30 players in the match.
 
But maybe it isn’t rigged for everyone – maybe it’s just you?
 
Maybe all of the other players are bots, and you’re the only actual thinking individual playing the game?
 
Maybe that’s true outside of the game as well?
 
What if you’re the subject of some kind of long-running experiment by the Government (whichever government you reside under), or the Illuminati, or the Bilderberg Group, or some other nefarious force interested in seeing what happens if they introduce a single individual with Free-Will into the drone fields?
 
What if none of this is real? What if you’re just a simulation programmed to think it’s sentient and set loose to interact with with a virtual world?
 
Or what if there’s no vast conspiracy to deprive you of the 100% win-rate you deserve and occasionally through a combination of bad choices on the part of yourself and others you go on bad streaks where it feels like you’re losing all the time, which are leveled out by better days that don’t register as strongly in your memory as the bad ones?
 
What seems more likely to you: you’ve had some bad luck, or Wargaming’s Developers have created a God Engine?

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