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pay to win skill ace moe

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test777777 #1 Posted 26 March 2019 - 06:15 AM

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Why does the community deny pay to win is necessary for high achievement.

 

The community sets benchmarks which are based on P2W and I don't understand this when  the community is so vocal about stomping on pay to win , preventing people buying OP tanks and concerned about tank balance yet there's a large section of the community who insist on spending silver to make their tanks OP behind the scenes to gain an advantage.

 

The community is also quick to use stats in relation to skill measurement and know how for the purpose of judging one players skill relative to another but fails to recognise that the high achievers are spending more silver to boost their performance which in turn reduces the performance of those who don't. It's not linear, still need to know how to tank but lets not pretend it's not pay to win if the cost of achieving Aces and MOEs creates a silver deficit for the F2P player. It's not just the MOEs and Aces but all direct performance stats which come from operating an OP version of the tank being driven.. 

 

In other words the community drives and insists on a skill based relatable metric which encourages and necessitates pay to win to create OP version of whatever tank by the individuals in the community so they can have a potential to achieve to the standard and then be judged as more skilled. The pay to win part is often not thought about because the stats do not reflect it. IT's there though and it's massively impacting.

 

I don't have a problem with pay to win in relation to the amount spent or even with it existing in this game  just take issue with the denial brigade, denying it exists, denying it impacts the stats and the balance and denying that it's equally available to all to use and believing it is equally used by all and that it doesn't impact relatability of performance stats or understanding what tanks are poorly balanced and what tanks aren't. 


Edited by test777777, 26 March 2019 - 06:16 AM.

 

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FusionStar287 #2 Posted 26 March 2019 - 06:35 AM

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I wonder how much of a difference pay-2-win items (premium consumables, gold ammo, etc.) actually have on a player's stats. I mean, obviously if two equally skilled players played the same tank over and over again with one firing only standard ammo and the other firing nothing but premium ammo the second player would end up with better stats, but I doubt the difference in stats between the two would be all that large. I've found that how skilled a player is matters far, far more than what ammo, equipment, consumables, or even tank they're using in most circumstances, and while someone with a full "pay-2-win" load out might have better stats than a equally skilled free-2-play player that same player would also have worse stats than most free-2-play players who are more skilled.

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Rubbelito #3 Posted 26 March 2019 - 06:40 AM

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The "denial" is based on that premium consumables are not p2w since they're available for silver.

It's an economic balance where you have to play better to not lose silver the more expensive consumables you use (i.e. "be good to win" ).

 

Only p2w I would agree on is OP prem tanks.


Edited by Rubbelito, 26 March 2019 - 06:40 AM.


Vampire_Izumi #4 Posted 26 March 2019 - 06:46 AM

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i 2 marked the E-100 with standard rounds... premium can make it easier but you can do just as good without it in most tanks.

i almost never use premium, unless it is my Fury.(128mm VS 177mms of pen).

here is a match in my E-100

 


Edited by greenteam117, 26 March 2019 - 06:50 AM.

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Xenith_Inc #5 Posted 26 March 2019 - 07:47 AM

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It's not really P2W as any tank winning more than it's fair share of games gets nerfed, as we've seen. 

 

Player skill > tank power, all other things being equal. 


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Sammael85 #6 Posted 26 March 2019 - 07:58 AM

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View PostRubbelito, on 26 March 2019 - 07:40 AM, said:

The "denial" is based on that premium consumables are not p2w since they're available for silver.

It's an economic balance where you have to play better to not lose silver the more expensive consumables you use (i.e. "be good to win" ).

 

Only p2w I would agree on is OP prem tanks.

 

I agree but, in some extend, to support a higher usage of Premium consumables due their excessive price on silver compared with the regular ones, one must have Premium account or else a good amount of Premium tanks in order to balance costs.

 

Of course WG has been offering Premium tanks by operation completion. But still it's an slightly P2W advantage after all. Creating a gap between players who use and abuse of that and the ones who doesnt. 


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Fishfood50 #7 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:01 AM

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View PostRubbelito, on 26 March 2019 - 06:40 AM, said:

The "denial" is based on that premium consumables are not p2w since they're available for silver.

It's an economic balance where you have to play better to not lose silver the more expensive consumables you use (i.e. "be good to win" ).

 

Only p2w I would agree on is OP prem tanks.

 

Basically this, although a bad player can use real money to buy silver making things easier you just need to play well to get silver to make things easier.

Fishfood50 #8 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:03 AM

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View PostSammael85, on 26 March 2019 - 07:58 AM, said:

 

I agree but, in some extend, to support a higher usage of Premium consumables due their excessive price on silver compared with the regular ones, one must have Premium account or else a good amount of Premium tanks in order to balance costs.

 

Of course WG has been offering Premium tanks by operation completion. But still it's an slightly P2W advantage after all. Creating a gap between players who use and abuse of that and the ones who doesnt. 

 

Good point, but without this there wouldn't be a game so the slight PTW is better. At least there are no big advantages from using real money.

M4ntiX #9 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:05 AM

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Game stopped being pay to win when gold rounds became available to everyone. Do heat spammers have it easier? Yes. But that doesn't automatically mean they will win more or play better. Skilled player will eat a noob gold spammer every time. There isn't a magic switch or tank in the game that you cam throw money at and instantly have a massive advantage. Gold rounds are not magical and will not work if the player using them doesn't known how and where to aim.

As far as op premium tanks are concerned there are still a few examples around (Defender, Rampanzer, etc.), but overall WGC is doing a good job not introducing new op vehicles to the game. Sadly, same cannot be said about PC. *cough cough* IS-3A

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John Arrowsmith #10 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:44 AM

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So people who are grinding silver have an advantage?    Well that's shocking,   perhaps others should do the same.

World of tanks Auto lock edition,  because aiming shouldn't be a skill.

 

 

 


test777777 #11 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:56 AM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 26 March 2019 - 02:35 PM, said:

I wonder how much of a difference pay-2-win items (premium consumables, gold ammo, etc.) actually have on a player's stats. I mean, obviously if two equally skilled players played the same tank over and over again with one firing only standard ammo and the other firing nothing but premium ammo the second player would end up with better stats, but I doubt the difference in stats between the two would be all that large. I've found that how skilled a player is matters far, far more than what ammo, equipment, consumables, or even tank they're using in most circumstances, and while someone with a full "pay-2-win" load out might have better stats than a equally skilled free-2-play player that same player would also have worse stats than most free-2-play players who are more skilled.

 

it comes down to the mathematics of it.  I really don't know exactly how much it moves an individual but if vehicle performance is directly related to results - improved performance especially in firepower and maneuverability and even quickness of repair means less performance for the opposition and more opportunity to put numbers on the board. The result is it skews the actual values so players who use it are over achieving and those who have more silver are over achieving more. 

 

.  


Edited by test777777, 26 March 2019 - 09:22 AM.

 

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Rubbelito #12 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:01 AM

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View PostSammael85, on 26 March 2019 - 08:58 AM, said:

 

I agree but, in some extend, to support a higher usage of Premium consumables due their excessive price on silver compared with the regular ones, one must have Premium account or else a good amount of Premium tanks in order to balance costs.

 

With this argument, having a single prem tank suddenly turned he game into p2w and I simply can't agree on drawing the line that early.

matematicalone #13 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:03 AM

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I disagree, it's not ptw. yes, of course the economy model is set to encourage you to buy premium time, but they have to keep the engine running, it's understandable. It's tougher when you don't have premium account and have to support your game from scarce resources you get from playing your TT and few low tier premium tanks. RNG is a thing and yes, shooting premium ammo gives you that edge you need when bottom tier. I'm not that regular player, but decided to catch that plaguebringer contract, it's my first and probably the last I will go after. contracts are not set to cater non-premium players. I had to use tier 6 vehicles for last stages and my premium time is just about to expire (premium time from earlier stages). So I unlocked and used my Hellcat and partially Jumbo Sherman but couldn't allow to spam premium ammo cause silver reserves are almost depleted.

Now I'm 40k xp short and I'm exausted, but managed to 3-mark Hellcat in th process, and I was shooting AP mostly and APCR only against tier VIII heavy armor. I'm carrying only 5 rounds on my Hellcat just for those. I wasn't after moe's at all, but as i said it was my only tier 6 atm, so had to play it. it would be easier to do it with full prammo, cause that would allow 15%-20% less bad RNG influence, but I can't afford it, so that was not an option.



 


test777777 #14 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:05 AM

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View PostRubbelito, on 26 March 2019 - 02:40 PM, said:

The "denial" is based on that premium consumables are not p2w since they're available for silver.

It's an economic balance where you have to play better to not lose silver the more expensive consumables you use (i.e. "be good to win" ).

 

Only p2w I would agree on is OP prem tanks.

 

It doesn't matter how the silver is accumulated. Better players should and do make more. That provides them with a means to have OP tanks more. The point is, that a silver deficit is not sustainable and it's not the players individual performance which governs it so much as the depth of their silver coffers.  

A new player is so far behind the 8 ball, not only do they have limited silver funds but are severely handicapped when it comes to earning it while competing against  OP tankers who are able to sustain a silver deficit. It's a case of the rich get richer where the tradeoff is increased stats and the poor get poorer. .


 

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test777777 #15 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:08 AM

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View PostRubbelito, on 26 March 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

 

With this argument, having a single prem tank suddenly turned he game into p2w and I simply can't agree on drawing the line that early.

 

When it comes to combat effectiveness and ability to put numbers on the board and battle balance I don't see how.  Premium tanks don't tend to be higher performing than their TT counterparts. Some might be considered so. 

When it comes to earning silver, though yes. Likewise with premium account but these things don't upset the battle balance so much.


Edited by test777777, 26 March 2019 - 09:30 AM.

 

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test777777 #16 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:19 AM

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View PostJohn Arrowsmith, on 26 March 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:

So people who are grinding silver have an advantage?    Well that's shocking,   perhaps others should do the same.

 

No, those who are suffering a silver deficit regularly but feature at the top of the leaderboard are paying to maintain their performance. Those who need to spend lots of silver to attain MOEs and Aces are paying to win. It's not just about the individual advantage or disadvantage  it's about how it skews the performance metrics and how those metrics are used to assess a players skill level.  It exaggerates the performance of all players but exaggerates the performance of the better players the most.because the reality is, they can afford to spend more silver per battle and put it to use disproportionally to what lesser players can. . 


 

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test777777 #17 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:30 AM

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View Postgreenteam117, on 26 March 2019 - 02:46 PM, said:

i 2 marked the E-100 with standard rounds... premium can make it easier but you can do just as good without it in most tanks.

i almost never use premium, unless it is my Fury.(128mm VS 177mms of pen).

here is a match in my E-100

 

I don't doubt it and while I haven't gotten my 2nd mark on anything yet, I'm at 77% in one of my vehicles and above 70% in several others I have only 5 aces, i'm not that good but all of the TT ones were silver positive for the F2P player.   Good luck getting a 3rd mark and remaining silver positive.  


 

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M4ntiX #18 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:30 AM

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^One could also argue that those who feature at the top of the leaderboard are earning the most and are not suffering from a silver deficit at all. I think your example is oversimplified and based solely on the assumption that to perform well means to spend silver. That is not the case however.

I'm currently playing the tier X 60tp. I'm not spamming gold because I don't have to, I come top of leaderboard often and bring 60K+ in nearly every battle. Same applies to many premium tanks that have the additional benefit of having silver boosts.

 

​Your premise is flawed. You do not need to spend more to do well in this game. You can if you want to be super duper uni purple, but you don't have to. Just look at QB's free to play experiment.


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matematicalone #19 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:31 AM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 26 March 2019 - 09:05 AM, said:

Game stopped being pay to win when gold rounds became available to everyone. Do heat spammers have it easier? Yes. But that doesn't automatically mean they will win more or play better. Skilled player will eat a noob gold spammer every time. There isn't a magic switch or tank in the game that you cam throw money at and instantly have a massive advantage. Gold rounds are not magical and will not work if the player using them doesn't known how and where to aim.

As far as op premium tanks are concerned there are still a few examples around (Defender, Rampanzer, etc.), but overall WGC is doing a good job not introducing new op vehicles to the game. Sadly, same cannot be said about PC. *cough cough* IS-3A

 

Premium ammo gives you an advantage and you will get better results even if you are a noob. Skill has weight, but skilled player will use cover and exposure, angling to best effects and yet it's not the same if you're doing it against standard or premium ammo.

I'll use Hellcat as an example again. standard ammo penetrates 160 mm so all good if you're shooting at tier 5, 6 and 7. Let's say you're shooting at hull down jumbo sherman with 152 mm all over turret. you know where to shoot, cheeks and stuff, but standard ammo can't do anything, rng is not helping also cause you low roll 2 out of 3 times. Hence you switch to apcr. All of the sudden you're penning right trough it because the pen is 248 mm. Even with bad rng and all the skill of Jumbo player his turret soon starts to look like swiss cheese.

So I'd say it's still not ptw, because it's available to everyone. Are you spammer or do you count every premium shot? That is up to a player.

 



 


Rubbelito #20 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:31 AM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 10:05 AM, said:

 

It doesn't matter how the silver is accumulated. Better players should and do make more. That provides them with a means to have OP tanks more. The point is, that a silver deficit is not sustainable and it's not the players individual performance which governs it so much as the depth of their silver coffers.  

A new player is so far behind the 8 ball, not only do they have limited silver funds but are severely handicapped when it comes to earning it while competing against  OP tankers who are able to sustain a silver deficit. It's a case of the rich get richer where the tradeoff is increased stats and the poor get poorer. .

 

I don't understand your point. I feel like your arguing with yourself now.

Better players make more. Yes.

How is that p2w?

 

View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

 

When it comes to combat effectiveness and ability to put numbers on the board and battle balance I don't see how.  Premium tanks don't tend to be higher performing than their TT counterparts. Some might be considered so. 

When it comes to earning silver, though yes. Likewise with premium account.

 

You don't see how what?

In general, prem tanks don't perform better but they have a silver bonus. I still don't see any points in your arguments. Sorry.

Probably just me not understanding how you see things.







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