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pay to win skill ace moe

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John Arrowsmith #21 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:32 AM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

 

No, those who are suffering a silver deficit regularly but feature at the top of the leaderboard are paying to maintain their performance. Those who need to spend lots of silver to attain MOEs and Aces are paying to win. It's not just about the individual advantage or disadvantage  it's about how it skews the performance metrics and how those metrics are used to assess a players skill level.  It exaggerates the performance of all players but exaggerates the performance of the better players the most.because the reality is, they can afford to spend more silver per battle and put it to use disproportionally to what lesser players can. . 

 

so those that grind silver and use everything possible to gain an advantage are paying to win?  

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dave mg 04 #22 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:36 AM

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why do people even claim it's pay to win?? it's not this game is PAY TO JUST PLAY.....

even just to 3 mark a tank you MUST spam gold and use premium consumables. 

it also seams that tier 8 upwards is just a gold spamming fest and if you dont you have mainly [edited]games where all you do is bounce and your heavy tank gets wrecked by a little light spamming gold.

plus the simple FACT you cant even grind tier8 up due to the credits you lose, that you MUST play premo tanks to MAKE credits just to progress.

but the gold spamming has filtered down to tier 5 with all the premo tanks and gold spamming seal clubbers.

so yes you can play for free but if you want to progess and do well YOU MUST PAY......

 



test777777 #23 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:37 AM

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View Postmatematicalone, on 26 March 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

I disagree, it's not ptw. yes, of course the economy model is set to encourage you to buy premium time, but they have to keep the engine running, it's understandable. It's tougher when you don't have premium account and have to support your game from scarce resources you get from playing your TT and few low tier premium tanks. RNG is a thing and yes, shooting premium ammo gives you that edge you need when bottom tier. I'm not that regular player, but decided to catch that plaguebringer contract, it's my first and probably the last I will go after. contracts are not set to cater non-premium players. I had to use tier 6 vehicles for last stages and my premium time is just about to expire (premium time from earlier stages). So I unlocked and used my Hellcat and partially Jumbo Sherman but couldn't allow to spam premium ammo cause silver reserves are almost depleted.

Now I'm 40k xp short and I'm exausted, but managed to 3-mark Hellcat in th process, and I was shooting AP mostly and APCR only against tier VIII heavy armor. I'm carrying only 5 rounds on my Hellcat just for those. I wasn't after moe's at all, but as i said it was my only tier 6 atm, so had to play it. it would be easier to do it with full prammo, cause that would allow 15%-20% less bad RNG influence, but I can't afford it, so that was not an option.

You're describing pay to win and at the same time denying it. You admit It would be easier(less skill required) to do with prammo but you can't afford it(insufficient currency). 3 marking without using premium anything is a great accomplishment - congratulations. 


 

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M4ntiX #24 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:40 AM

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Just FYI, you DO NOT need gold ammo to 3 mark tanks. I know, I've 3 marked many of my tanks with no gold ammo used (M103, T32, derp Jumbo to name a few).

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matematicalone #25 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:45 AM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 10:37 AM, said:

You're describing pay to win and at the same time denying it. You admit It would be easier(less skill required) to do with prammo but you can't afford it(insufficient currency). 3 marking without using premium anything is a great accomplishment - congratulations.

 

That would be twisting my words. I've tried to explain on my own example and i don't spam premium ammo nor I'm buying premium time on regular basis. It's possible to do good without all of that, although i'm not saying using premium ammo wouldn't speed things up. i could shoot more premium ammo and reduce rng influence and that would probably give me around 15% more dmg so i would get there faster. but it's not all about spamming apcr, some skill is required too.


 


swimwithwhales #26 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:49 AM

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OP are you saying that the only criteria that matters is how many premium consumables you use and that predict the end result? Premium consumables do not a Unicum make. That if we both had the same tank, with the same set-up and same gold ammo we would get exactly the same results? I would wager not. Like most things in this game it requires insight and knowledge. Far more important than how many skill rounds you own.

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matematicalone #27 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:57 AM

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View Postswimwithwhales, on 26 March 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

OP are you saying that the only criteria that matters is how many premium consumables you use and that predict the end result? Premium consumables do not a Unicum make. That if we both had the same tank, with the same set-up and same gold ammo we would get exactly the same results? I would wager not. Like most things in this game it requires insight and knowledge. Far more important than how many skill rounds you own.

 

yes, and if you have players like swimwithwhales on your team you'll get better results. always. well, think again, I recognize him from this forum and last two or three games i saw him in game were all defeats, so I could say that swimwithwhales is jinxed and just abandon the game next time i see him in greens. :teethhappy:



 


test777777 #28 Posted 26 March 2019 - 10:09 AM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 26 March 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

^One could also argue that those who feature at the top of the leaderboard are earning the most and are not suffering from a silver deficit at all. I think your example is oversimplified and based solely on the assumption that to perform well means to spend silver. That is not the case however.

I'm currently playing the tier X 60tp. I'm not spamming gold because I don't have to, I come top of leaderboard often and bring 60K+ in nearly every battle. Same applies to many premium tanks that have the additional benefit of having silver boosts.

 

​Your premise is flawed. You do not need to spend more to do well in this game. You can if you want to be super duper uni purple, but you don't have to. Just look at QB's free to play experiment.

One could argue that most high performances typically don't feature a F2P silver deficit but from what I've seen most seem to and even a premium account silver deficit. This opinion is formed  from:

1. Seeing screen caps of high performances suggest, F2P silver is in the negative and sometimes even as a premium player. That's with all of the medals and honour silver bonuses as well as premium tank silver bonuses.

2. Hearing peoples experience with chasing 3rd MOE and how they load everything up and it costs them lots of silver even as a premium player.

3. The amount of Prammo being fired at all tiers against far softer targets.

 

My assumption is that the bench for great performances are being set beyond elevated beyond the realistic expected performance of the tank being used because said tank is being made OP through silver usage. Spend silver and pen increases by 50 or 40 or 60. How is that not going to inflate a performance metric except in a situation where the extra pen doesn't matter. 

 

That tells me that the bench is set by people who are spending money to attain it. The magnitude of the many performances are being artificially inflated, especially at the high end. That's got to skew the results. OP tiger 131 wouldn't be so OP without premium ammo pen values. That's why people spend silver to get that advantage.

 

That's not to say it's impossible to achieve without spending it as your performance and  my own recent performances have demonstrated. But it's tougher when competing with those that do.  

I'm under no illusion that I would or could become a purple player through premium usage and I too have taken out higher tier and prammo spamming tanks on the battlefield but that doesn't mean if we are in the same tank that their tank is OP relative to mine.  I think if premium consumables or ammo wasn't a thing, the stats would shift, the extent of any one tanks OPness would be more limited essentially meaning many current burples might shift closer to blue than purple, some yellows might shift to green and performance metrics would be more relatable. 

Aces and MOE requirements would be more realistically achievable and there'd be greater balance in battles. . 

 


 

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test777777 #29 Posted 26 March 2019 - 10:15 AM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 26 March 2019 - 05:40 PM, said:

Just FYI, you DO NOT need gold ammo to 3 mark tanks. I know, I've 3 marked many of my tanks with no gold ammo used (M103, T32, derp Jumbo to name a few).

Did you use food to improve your tank performance by 10%? 

I realise that it's possible and i'm glad that some people don't feel the need to prammo although I wonder if it is possible to do(3 mark)  in all tanks since the bench is still inflated by those that do and it would have been harder for you to achieve than it would have been otherwise.

 


 

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Koncorde #30 Posted 26 March 2019 - 10:20 AM

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If your definition of pay to win is the ability not to lose money, to have equipment on your tanks, to have consumables equipped, and to have an array of ammunition available for all situations, and maybe because you have a premium account to maximise earnings or minimise losses of silver, then of course the game is pay to win.



Koncorde #31 Posted 26 March 2019 - 10:21 AM

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Or, at least, pay to possibly not suck as much.

test777777 #32 Posted 26 March 2019 - 10:28 AM

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View Postswimwithwhales, on 26 March 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

OP are you saying that the only criteria that matters is how many premium consumables you use and that predict the end result? Premium consumables do not a Unicum make. That if we both had the same tank, with the same set-up and same gold ammo we would get exactly the same results? I would wager not. Like most things in this game it requires insight and knowledge. Far more important than how many skill rounds you own.

 

No i'm not saying that at all. I'm suggesting that for a segment of the population, the stats are over inflated by the use of premium consumables which creates a silver defecit while another segment of the population are statistically under achieving. I'm also suggesting that the high end benchmarks too are over inflated(set by pay to win) in that they are mainly set by people willing and able to afford to suffer silver loss.  

 

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test777777 #33 Posted 26 March 2019 - 10:36 AM

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View PostKoncorde, on 26 March 2019 - 06:20 PM, said:

If your definition of pay to win is the ability not to lose money, to have equipment on your tanks, to have consumables equipped, and to have an array of ammunition available for all situations, and maybe because you have a premium account to maximise earnings or minimise losses of silver, then of course the game is pay to win.

 

The pay to win part comes from the idea that not every player can afford to spend equally to make their Tank OP as often as others. That means, some players are going into battle and have their tank more OP more often than other players. Guess which segment of players are more able to sustain an OP prammo tank? 

The benchmarks for high achievement are set through those same players performance in their OP vehicles. 


 

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test777777 #34 Posted 26 March 2019 - 10:42 AM

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View Postmatematicalone, on 26 March 2019 - 05:45 PM, said:

 

That would be twisting my words. I've tried to explain on my own example and i don't spam premium ammo nor I'm buying premium time on regular basis. It's possible to do good without all of that, although i'm not saying using premium ammo wouldn't speed things up. i could shoot more premium ammo and reduce rng influence and that would probably give me around 15% more dmg so i would get there faster. but it's not all about spamming apcr, some skill is required too.

I don't believe I twisted your words. The fact that some players do and can achieve without using premium consumables is a testament to their capability but for relating those stats, good luck determining who's stats are based on excess use of premium consumables and who's aren't.

If you were using silver and could afford more of it, your results would be higher and believe it or not, your potential earnings exceeds that of most players due to your skill. Others will go in and seal club farm, silver and then use that earning to make a more competitive tank more OP because that's the only way they can reach a high benchmark. 


 

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test777777 #35 Posted 26 March 2019 - 10:51 AM

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View PostRubbelito, on 26 March 2019 - 05:31 PM, said:

 

I don't understand your point. I feel like your arguing with yourself now.

Better players make more. Yes.

How is that p2w?

 

 

You don't see how what?

In general, prem tanks don't perform better but they have a silver bonus. I still don't see any points in your arguments. Sorry.

Probably just me not understanding how you see things.

Better players are more silver rich. They can afford to make their tanks more OP relative to other segments of the population, once they have ground out every tank they hope to play. 

I don't see how premium tanks are pay to win in the sense that they don't improve battle performance over  TT tanks however, they do increase silver earn rate which does allow players to increase their ability to make their tanks OP more often and suffer less silver loss as a result.  Yes relating to this, I mis read your response - I thought you were responding to the OP and I understand why you thought I was arguing with myself.


Edited by test777777, 26 March 2019 - 10:53 AM.

 

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M4ntiX #36 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:10 AM

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Following your logic, players who decide to free XP their way to the last package rather than play inferior, stock tanks are "paying to win."

I think you may have had an idea there somewhere but you lost it trying to defend silly premises.

It's not unheard-of for skilled players to have it better in terms of earnings. Every multiplayer game follows the same model and rewards skill, but it has nothing to do with pay to win. Good players will always progress quicker and earn more, that's why most of us are trying to improve and become better at the game.

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John Arrowsmith #37 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:17 AM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 10:36 AM, said:

 

The pay to win part comes from the idea that not every player can afford to spend equally to make their Tank OP as often as others. That means, some players are going into battle and have their tank more OP more often than other players. Guess which segment of players are more able to sustain an OP prammo tank? 

The benchmarks for high achievement are set through those same players performance in their OP vehicles. 

 

can you please tell us all how these players got all this silver?    I have to grind mine,  but if a silver tree exists I want one. 

World of tanks Auto lock edition,  because aiming shouldn't be a skill.

 

 

 


FinlandRed #38 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:25 AM

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View PostJohn Arrowsmith, on 26 March 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

 

can you please tell us all how these players got all this silver?    I have to grind mine,  but if a silver tree exists I want one. 

 

Don't know about a silver tree. Personnally I go out and grind my *** off like a desperate pole dancer whilst carrying total tomatoes, potatoes and green beans.:trollface:

 

I use premium kit, gold rounds and food. I will use every advantage the game will give me to get better results against my opponents. Silver is not an issue if you can hit what you're aiming at. I'm currently sitting on 121M and I've not finished Charlie yet.

 

I'm guessing you have no issue either John?

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Koncorde #39 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:26 AM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 10:36 AM, said:

 

The pay to win part comes from the idea that not every player can afford to spend equally to make their Tank OP as often as others. That means, some players are going into battle and have their tank more OP more often than other players. Guess which segment of players are more able to sustain an OP prammo tank? 

The benchmarks for high achievement are set through those same players performance in their OP vehicles. 

 

This is circular reasoning unfortunately. While I do not disagree that having silver is enables quicker progress and earn rates, by itself it is not the defining factor of success. It might be a vector, but based on my own experience it isn't the principle issue compared to other factors.

 

The benchmarks are set by the players who put the time in, and have the best set of skills, and are playing in a platoon with similarly skilled people.

 

Whether they have silver or not is largely irrelevant, compared to having a highly trained crew, a fully upgraded tank, and higher skill set.



LifeTilts #40 Posted 26 March 2019 - 12:27 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 26 March 2019 - 08:35 AM, said:

I wonder how much of a difference pay-2-win items (premium consumables, gold ammo, etc.) actually have on a player's stats. I mean, obviously if two equally skilled players played the same tank over and over again with one firing only standard ammo and the other firing nothing but premium ammo the second player would end up with better stats, but I doubt the difference in stats between the two would be all that large. I've found that how skilled a player is matters far, far more than what ammo, equipment, consumables, or even tank they're using in most circumstances, and while someone with a full "pay-2-win" load out might have better stats than a equally skilled free-2-play player that same player would also have worse stats than most free-2-play players who are more skilled.

 

It depends on the tank but I've tested this with two T-43s as part of a challenge and my WN8 was almost 2x higher spamming premium and using consumables, while crew skills and equipment were equal. Alternated between the two accounts a few games at a time.

 


 

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