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mikkoj #41 Posted 26 March 2019 - 12:47 PM

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Well pay to win is all about objective performance boosts and you certainly can buy better performance. Just conveniently dump more in game currency for performance boosts and to balance it out you can pay for premium time or tanks with your real money. Not to even mention tanks better than their TT counterparts.

 

Game is designed to be pay to win. Who the [edited]would purchase premium time if there would not be competitive edge. Hell it is main reason why there even is stock tanks, additional fees for equipment removal, crew training or premium rounds. 


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Koncorde #42 Posted 26 March 2019 - 12:54 PM

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I pay for premium time because the game needs financial support. I enjoyed it as a FTP long before that however.

ThermalStone #43 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:59 PM

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Premium ammo is a skill multiplier.  The better a player you are, the more shots per game you fire on average and therefore the greater benefit you get from shooting a ton of premium shells.  Your typical green player doesn't shoot enough to get a purple Wn8 even if he penetrated every single shot.  Premium ammo and consumables won't make you a better player unless the underlying skills are already there.

 

It is possible for an active player to spam premium ammo and consumables, always have premium time up, and have a selection of premium tanks to choose from without spending a dime on the game.  WG have given away so much silver, premium time, and tanks the past couple years that there is no excuse for being too poor to "pay to win."


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Baardgier #44 Posted 26 March 2019 - 02:02 PM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 09:05 AM, said:

 

It doesn't matter how the silver is accumulated. Better players should and do make more. That provides them with a means to have OP tanks more. The point is, that a silver deficit is not sustainable and it's not the players individual performance which governs it so much as the depth of their silver coffers.  

A new player is so far behind the 8 ball, not only do they have limited silver funds but are severely handicapped when it comes to earning it while competing against  OP tankers who are able to sustain a silver deficit. It's a case of the rich get richer where the tradeoff is increased stats and the poor get poorer. .

 

It sounds like you're just complaining about a new player not having as much silver as an experienced player (good or bad that's just what happens when someone plays the game for a long time). Good players will also be able to make silver using large consumables far more often than a bad player because they don't rush out and die in the first 60 seconds. In general I'm just confused as to the point you're attempting to make has any relevance whatsoever on how this game is p2w.

 

View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

 

No, those who are suffering a silver deficit regularly but feature at the top of the leaderboard are paying to maintain their performance. Those who need to spend lots of silver to attain MOEs and Aces are paying to win. It's not just about the individual advantage or disadvantage  it's about how it skews the performance metrics and how those metrics are used to assess a players skill level.  It exaggerates the performance of all players but exaggerates the performance of the better players the most.because the reality is, they can afford to spend more silver per battle and put it to use disproportionally to what lesser players can. . 

 

Literally every single player in WoT is paying to maintain their performance, no one escapes that. You give me literally any tank and setup and do the same thing for the lower half of the player base and no matter what it is or what loadout you give I'll perform better than them. That has nothing to do with being p2w, that's just a difference in WoT knowledge and skill. Unless you're saying that being good at WoT is somehow p2w?

 

View Postdave mg 04, on 26 March 2019 - 09:36 AM, said:

why do people even claim it's pay to win?? it's not this game is PAY TO JUST PLAY.....

even just to 3 mark a tank you MUST spam gold and use premium consumables. 

it also seams that tier 8 upwards is just a gold spamming fest and if you dont you have mainly [edited]games where all you do is bounce and your heavy tank gets wrecked by a little light spamming gold.

plus the simple FACT you cant even grind tier8 up due to the credits you lose, that you MUST play premo tanks to MAKE credits just to progress.

but the gold spamming has filtered down to tier 5 with all the premo tanks and gold spamming seal clubbers.

so yes you can play for free but if you want to progess and do well YOU MUST PAY......

 

 

That sounds like misinformation spewed from someone who has never 3 marked a tank. Also just general salt across the board.

 

View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 10:51 AM, said:

Better players are more silver rich. They can afford to make their tanks more OP relative to other segments of the population, once they have ground out every tank they hope to play. 

I don't see how premium tanks are pay to win in the sense that they don't improve battle performance over  TT tanks however, they do increase silver earn rate which does allow players to increase their ability to make their tanks OP more often and suffer less silver loss as a result.  Yes relating to this, I mis read your response - I thought you were responding to the OP and I understand why you thought I was arguing with myself.

 

I'm sorry, but what? You think better players are p2w to win but prems aren't? Being better is earned through experienced (not just by playing but by trying and succeeding at doing better) while prems you literally pay for can be better than their TT counterparts (FCM, Panther 88m STA-2, Skorpion G, Iron Rain, Patriot, Defender, Yazi, Minuteman, Lycan, T-50-2, Scourge, Hellhound, etc.). I could go on for so many more prem tank that beat out their TT counterparts, it's actually a little silly.


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Koval03 #45 Posted 26 March 2019 - 02:44 PM

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No one has ever 3 marked a tier 10 tank shooting only standard ammo.  Change my mind. 



Rubbelito #46 Posted 26 March 2019 - 02:54 PM

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View PostKoval03, on 26 March 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

No one has ever 3 marked a tier 10 tank shooting only standard ammo.  Change my mind. 

 

Prove it.

x_BAlN_x #47 Posted 26 March 2019 - 03:19 PM

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The only way this game can become pay to win is if you could pay money to transform your team mates from tools to tank gods.

Baardgier #48 Posted 26 March 2019 - 03:24 PM

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View PostKoval03, on 26 March 2019 - 02:44 PM, said:

No one has ever 3 marked a tier 10 tank shooting only standard ammo.  Change my mind. 

 

I did with my 13 105 and T 100 LT, get good.

Edited by Baardgier, 26 March 2019 - 03:24 PM.

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mikkoj #49 Posted 26 March 2019 - 03:43 PM

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View PostBaardgier, on 26 March 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

 

I did with my 13 105 and T 100 LT, get good.

 

Without complex equipment (silver sink or forced use of gold) and food (silver sink) too i guess. 

3-marks: Chaffee, PZ 5/4, VK 30.02 M, Cromwell knight, 34-88, T26E4, Churchill 3, T29, E75, conqueror, ELC, snakebite, T32  (13 tanks)

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Baardgier #50 Posted 26 March 2019 - 03:44 PM

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View Postmikkoj, on 26 March 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

 

Without complex equipment (silver sink or forced use of gold) and food (silver sink) too i guess. 

 

Lol what? 

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SandM9 #51 Posted 26 March 2019 - 04:00 PM

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Well op you tried, but unfortunately your premise is flawed. P2W is not really the objective. The game could care less win/lose. What the people arguing with you are trying to tell you even if they don't realize it is that the game is P2havefun. Silver is the currency and the most efficient way to earn it is to pay for the premium time and/or pay for that premium tank. The other option is to GRIND.  XP just happens if you play enough. You can fail your way through some tanks, I certainly have and have seen plenty of players fail their way up to tier X. 

 

I do agree with one thing. It would not be fun to be a new player trying to grind after the silver and accuracy nerfs.


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SandM9 #52 Posted 26 March 2019 - 04:01 PM

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View Postbain61, on 26 March 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

The only way this game can become pay to win is if you could pay money to transform your team mates from tools to tank gods.

 

:medal:

Welcome to the forums. Where you can call people stupid, just don't call them passive-aggressive.

 

 


FinlandRed #53 Posted 26 March 2019 - 04:11 PM

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View PostKoval03, on 26 March 2019 - 02:44 PM, said:

No one has ever 3 marked a tier 10 tank shooting only standard ammo.  Change my mind. 

 

I believe Jag The Gemini three marked the E100 using standard rounds.


test777777 #54 Posted 26 March 2019 - 06:55 PM

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View PostBaardgier, on 26 March 2019 - 10:02 PM, said:

 

It sounds like you're just complaining about a new player not having as much silver as an experienced player (good or bad that's just what happens when someone plays the game for a long time). Good players will also be able to make silver using large consumables far more often than a bad player because they don't rush out and die in the first 60 seconds. In general I'm just confused as to the point you're attempting to make has any relevance whatsoever on how this game is p2w.

 

Literally every single player in WoT is paying to maintain their performance, no one escapes that. You give me literally any tank and setup and do the same thing for the lower half of the player base and no matter what it is or what loadout you give I'll perform better than them. That has nothing to do with being p2w, that's just a difference in WoT knowledge and skill. Unless you're saying that being good at WoT is somehow p2w?

 

That sounds like misinformation spewed from someone who has never 3 marked a tank. Also just general salt across the board.

 

I'm sorry, but what? You think better players are p2w to win but prems aren't? Being better is earned through experienced (not just by playing but by trying and succeeding at doing better) while prems you literally pay for can be better than their TT counterparts (FCM, Panther 88m STA-2, Skorpion G, Iron Rain, Patriot, Defender, Yazi, Minuteman, Lycan, T-50-2, Scourge, Hellhound, etc.). I could go on for so many more prem tank that beat out their TT counterparts, it's actually a little silly.

 

First bit. It relates to performance metrics and relating player performance and game balance. The mechanic means purples are driving more op tanks than greens more often since they can afford more often to boost the performance of their tanks and they also benefit far more from doing so which skews the value of relatable skill based metrics. It also messes with balance due to the offensive OPness.

 

Second bit, I’m not paying to maintain battle performance so much. For me it’s grinding lots of lines at the same time. If people want to pay and are good enough to afford the silver for premium and they need that then so be it but let’s not pretend poorer players are able to afford to boost their tanks performance to bring theirs in line as often. Let’s not compare the stats of poorer players with those who spend silver on premium consumables for a skill based metric. Prammo spam requires less skill to get bigger numbers but requires more skill to subsidise the cost. Let’s not point fingers at the poorer team mate who’s less skilled and driving less boosted tanks and can’t compete. Let’s not pretend it’s just skill making the difference when it comes to the metrics and realise that  the tanker who isn’t able to achieve has their stats handicapped by the p2w aspect. 

 

My belief is that while the tanks you listed are decent, there are plenty of decent TT tanks of the same tiers. In many cases the opposite is true with premium tank performance sitting somewhere between middle ant top package. Premium tanks are not intended to mess with the battle balance. Premium consumables unfortunately do. Further, most metrics for performance relate to comparable tanks. Tiger 131, not sure how much that costs to ace but without prammo it’s no where near the monster OP beast that the stats show it to be. If someone wants to Ace or 3 mark or have it achieve the expected values it’s going to require a performance which far outweighs its TT counterpart and a lot of silver to pay for it I dare say.

 


 

Playing it safe


test777777 #55 Posted 26 March 2019 - 06:58 PM

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View PostFinlandRed, on 27 March 2019 - 12:11 AM, said:

 

I believe Jag The Gemini three marked the E100 using standard rounds.

 

I think he did. Pretty sure R35T has done the same on a couple of tanks. It’s not the norm though for most of the playerbase though.

 

Playing it safe


Tempest fox3 #56 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:05 PM

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View PostKoval03, on 26 March 2019 - 02:44 PM, said:

No one has ever 3 marked a tier 10 tank shooting only standard ammo.  Change my mind. 

 

Except there is a forums that has. He regularly posts videos of him 3 marking tanks without any premium ammo or consumables. 

 

You're just salty because you'll never achieve it. 


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killer etzi0 #57 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:08 PM

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why do people spend so much time playing and complaining about a "pay-to-win" game if they don't like "pay-to-win"

 

On a side note "pay-to-win" is a subjective description and not accurate for World of Tanks. "Pay-to-advance-quicker" is accurate. I guess since the arty situation has been mostly put to rest "pay-to-win" might be the subject the ends up taking it's place.


Edited by killer etzi0, 26 March 2019 - 08:10 PM.

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Tempest fox3 #58 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:38 PM

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View Postkiller etzi0, on 26 March 2019 - 08:08 PM, said:

why do people spend so much time playing and complaining about a "pay-to-win" game if they don't like "pay-to-win"

 

On a side note "pay-to-win" is a subjective description and not accurate for World of Tanks. "Pay-to-advance-quicker" is accurate. I guess since the arty situation has been mostly put to rest "pay-to-win" might be the subject the ends up taking it's place.

 

There are elements of pay to win in WoT. Mostly related to select overpowered premium tanks. 

 

The argument then isn't 'is wot pay to win' but, 'to what level is wot pay to win' and 'how much pay to win is acceptable'

 

Things like premium time and premium ammo / consumables aren't pay to win, premium time just allows you to progress faster, it doesn't help you win in any way. Premium ammo and consumables aren't exclusive to gold spenders. 


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Baardgier #59 Posted 26 March 2019 - 08:51 PM

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View Posttest777777, on 26 March 2019 - 06:55 PM, said:

 

First bit. It relates to performance metrics and relating player performance and game balance. The mechanic means purples are driving more op tanks than greens more often since they can afford more often to boost the performance of their tanks and they also benefit far more from doing so which skews the value of relatable skill based metrics. It also messes with balance due to the offensive OPness.

 

Second bit, I’m not paying to maintain battle performance so much. For me it’s grinding lots of lines at the same time. If people want to pay and are good enough to afford the silver for premium and they need that then so be it but let’s not pretend poorer players are able to afford to boost their tanks performance to bring theirs in line as often. Let’s not compare the stats of poorer players with those who spend silver on premium consumables for a skill based metric. Prammo spam requires less skill to get bigger numbers but requires more skill to subsidise the cost. Let’s not point fingers at the poorer team mate who’s less skilled and driving less boosted tanks and can’t compete. Let’s not pretend it’s just skill making the difference when it comes to the metrics and realise that  the tanker who isn’t able to achieve has their stats handicapped by the p2w aspect. 

 

My belief is that while the tanks you listed are decent, there are plenty of decent TT tanks of the same tiers. In many cases the opposite is true with premium tank performance sitting somewhere between middle ant top package. Premium tanks are not intended to mess with the battle balance. Premium consumables unfortunately do. Further, most metrics for performance relate to comparable tanks. Tiger 131, not sure how much that costs to ace but without prammo it’s no where near the monster OP beast that the stats show it to be. If someone wants to Ace or 3 mark or have it achieve the expected values it’s going to require a performance which far outweighs its TT counterpart and a lot of silver to pay for it I dare say.

 

 

You have literally zero proof of that entire first paragraph.

 

Yes, you are. Literally everyone is because unlike CoD of BF there is a silver cost to playing WoT, for literally every single game. If you go out and immediately die it will cost you. In CoD or BF you just die, no negative economic (in game mind you) cost because of it. For the rest, what are you actually on about? Are you just salty about something or can't accept reality? Regardless, a super uni will outperform a green player in the exact same tank, with the exact same crew skills, same equipment, and ammo in every way given the same number of statistically relevant battles. You're just foolish if you believe otherwise.

 

I listed those tank because they have direct TT counterparts, except for the FCM since the 50 100 is an autoloader. Also, just because another TT can do well, doesn't automatically mean the prem isn't a better option. Especially considering a good majority of those tanks have pmm. Just because you foolishly believe prem tanks aren't intended to mess with balance doesn't mean they don't somehow. They can completely ruin tiers. Just look at the Pz. V/IV. Prem consumables are a silly drop in the bucket compared to OP prems. Which unlike prem consumables, which are accessible to everyone for silver, you have to pay real money for.

 

The Tiger 131 is a completely separate issue. It has 2,400 base dpm at tier 7, gets pmm, has more gun depression than the TT Tiger, and had it's gun mantlet buffed. It's OP beyond measure and can't be nerfed because it's a prem. Prem spam or not, the tank is ridiculous OP for its tier.


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mikkoj #60 Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:22 PM

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View PostBaardgier, on 26 March 2019 - 05:44 PM, said:

 

Lol what? 

 

Free to play players can t afford those either. Using more silver makes you more competitive. You are not supposed to be competitive without paying. 

 


3-marks: Chaffee, PZ 5/4, VK 30.02 M, Cromwell knight, 34-88, T26E4, Churchill 3, T29, E75, conqueror, ELC, snakebite, T32  (13 tanks)

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