Jump to content


Inside Look: Auto-Reloaders and Balance


  • Please log in to reply
138 replies to this topic

MaxChaos24 #1 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:17 AM

    Gameplay Expert

  • Administrator
  • 13190 battles
  • 20,877
  • [WGW]
  • Member since:
    09-15-2013

When introducing new vehicles to World of Tanks: Mercenaries, we often receive questions on how we decided to adjust the vehicles so that they differ in stats compared to the PC version. Today we’d like to cover this subject using the new Italian Tech Tree as an example!

When introducing new tanks from other Wargaming products, we always take an in-depth look into how these tanks are performing on the original platform(s). The data generated by the other platforms is vital for providing us extremely valuable information. We can see how the tanks perform in their original ecosystem and compare that with WoT: Mercenaries vehicles. By looking at the new vehicles, their performance, and their goals we can see if any adjustments are necessary for WoT: Mercenaries.

The Italian tank line in WoT: Mercenaries has received some adjustments from their original PC variants, especially the tier 8-10 vehicles that use the recently introduced gun mechanic known as the “auto-reloader”. Auto-reloader weapons are quite different and requires a whole new perspective for judging their effectiveness. These weapon systems have a variable DPM instead of a static DPM. This is a huge difference from other guns, and change how we determine how effective a gun is. When compared to existing weapons, auto-reloader DPM can look pretty poor. What the paper stats don’t show is how potent this new mechanic is due to the variable per-shell reload rates. Auto-reloaders have flexible firepower: players can use them as both single fire and burst fire weapons based on the situation they find themselves in. Auto-reloaders can fulfill multiple playstyles and take advantage of changing battlefield situations in a unique way other weapon systems can’t.

Let’s look at the current damage performance of Tier 8-10 Italian tanks on PC compared to the existing tanks on WoT: Mercenaries. PC Italian tank performance is represented by the orange bar. WoT: Mercenaries current performance is blue. Ariete Progetto M35 mod. 46 current performance is grey. When we saw this data, we decided we needed to adjust the vehicles before we could introduce them into our game.

  • Vertical axis is the damage output
  • Horizontal axis is the win rate of the player

 

We hope you enjoyed this inside look and we hope it helps you understand how we introduce new tanks to the game and why there are differences between our game and others. Roll out!



DwarfOnDrugs #2 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:29 AM

    Major

  • Players
  • 31610 battles
  • 2,431
  • [-UNL-]
  • Member since:
    03-12-2014
Right, now can we have the statistical differences between console and PC?

 


Sammael85 #3 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:32 AM

    Major

  • Players
  • 25307 battles
  • 4,981
  • [FAC]
  • Member since:
    08-20-2015

View PostDwarfOnDrugs, on 26 March 2019 - 12:29 PM, said:

Right, now can we have the statistical differences between console and PC?

 

You already know the answer. Smoke out and... :hiding:

 

I have a good question BTW. If the promedium damage in a Medium Tier X is about 1500 or less, why the heck do i have to put the exact double constantly to get a freaking MoE or Maestries? It's impossible that a 35% of the players are about to put the values at such a high levels when it's even rare to see a player connecting a single shot. :popcorn:


Some might say i'm not constructive enough... Too bad i'm actually a deconstructivist

Si eres español/hispano y te sientes aislado por WG, no estás solo: Hay un Batallón Exiliado dispuesto a ayudarte

Hear me ROAR!!!
 


Koneko Da Best #4 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:37 AM

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 28782 battles
  • 600
  • [KMD]
  • Member since:
    02-03-2014
So have you not taken into account that half the tanks in our game have much better stats than their PC counterparts before making these terrible balancing decisions or do you guys just not care and think you couldn't possibly be doing anything wrong? :sceptic:

Edited by Koneko Da Best, 26 March 2019 - 11:38 AM.


l3m0nh3ad #5 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:39 AM

    REDDIT

  • WoTC Reddit
  • 18198 battles
  • 90
  • [IMTLZ]
  • Member since:
    08-28-2015
And do you factor in the immense complexity of the fact PC is a lot more balanced meta than our because we have waffles, heshstars, 850 alpha TDS, 1800 HE pen artillery and OP spaced armour mercenary tanks? How do you judge off the performance of PC when you insist on being your own game and they're at the point where a lot of stuff just doesnt match? PC has a normal and effective E50M and TVP which are both trash on this platform so the Italians will perform respectively different.

skHydroFlasksk #6 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:41 AM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 10425 battles
  • 229
  • [MDKP]
  • Member since:
    02-12-2014
There are many flaws with this way of thinking, too many to try an construct in a thread without giving a basic statistics lecture.  Most fallacious though would be using the averages for the Italian line from PC at the moment.  This is notably due to the nation tree still being fairly new on PC, and thus being more skewed proportionally by the better player-base; something PC is more than aware of.  There is also the problem of trying to compare this directly alongside console with the good majority of the console player-base refusing to even play remotely tangible towards a team effort (using the compass and never viewing the overhead map, refusing to successfully hit moving targets by leading shots, committing suicide at the start of the game to complete an op/merc contract, ect.).  There's a reason why the community on PC side is in strong agreement that the new tank lines being released are strongly just 'average'.  Its because they are in fact balanced for their meta.  And the worst part about nerfing all the new content here on console is that our meta is far from balanced, especially at the higher tiers with our broken TD meta.  Hell our T110E4 has better alpha and dpm than it does on PC, and even got a massive camo at shot buff putting it on par with the firing of 88 mm guns which is just ludicrous.  But again this is an instance of poor statistical analysis.  A new way to handle this or to add insight would be to take more opinions from the better player-base on console.  That is the people who have the best feel for meta balance, and are able to demonstrate the actual over-performing vehicles, since they actually have statistics to greatly demonstrate performance capabilities.

"I will rain death upon all who oppose me. I am the embodiment of sky cancer and I will make you rue the day you dare cross into my view and sit thy tank still. Some call me arty scum, but they are fools! I am become sky cancer the destroyer of balance and even if you close in to close range I will call upon the gods of rng and shotgun you into condemnation for no one will associate with a tanker who cannot take out an artillery."  -Unholy Lucipurr 2017 (dictated but not read)


I bims 1 Tali #7 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:57 AM

    Corporal

  • Beta Tester
  • 21063 battles
  • 89
  • [I66I]
  • Member since:
    08-20-2013

Hey would it be possible to publish this data for every tank?

 

If that's to much work could you do this for tanks the community considers overpowered? 

 

Like 131, Pz4/5, minuteman, ect.



skHydroFlasksk #8 Posted 26 March 2019 - 12:09 PM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 10425 battles
  • 229
  • [MDKP]
  • Member since:
    02-12-2014
Why aren't the vehicles view-able in the portal?  We still don't have the ability to view upgraded modules in our garage/depot unless we own the vehicles fully researched/upgraded.

"I will rain death upon all who oppose me. I am the embodiment of sky cancer and I will make you rue the day you dare cross into my view and sit thy tank still. Some call me arty scum, but they are fools! I am become sky cancer the destroyer of balance and even if you close in to close range I will call upon the gods of rng and shotgun you into condemnation for no one will associate with a tanker who cannot take out an artillery."  -Unholy Lucipurr 2017 (dictated but not read)


swamp_fox_009 #9 Posted 26 March 2019 - 12:26 PM

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 18622 battles
  • 838
  • [ODH]
  • Member since:
    12-04-2015

Hmmmm. Doesn't the 1st graph show that the Ariete on console is outperforming the average of all other medium Tier 8s on console? Every skill level from players with 45% win rate all the way to 60% win rates are doing better in this tank as compared to the average medium.


Edited by swamp_fox_009, 26 March 2019 - 12:45 PM.


Al Bundy8971 #10 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:01 PM

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 28553 battles
  • 641
  • [-L7-]
  • Member since:
    07-29-2015

Ha, i love how WG console continues to say that it's a different game than PC, but turns around and uses PC statistics to "balance" console vehicles. Basically those bar graphs indicate that better players do better in the Italians compared to other mediums, whereas poor to average players perform similarly with all nations. The progetto has been out for what, 2 or 3 weeks? Anytime something new is introduced people need time to figure out how to deal with it. Italians CANNOT handle getting rushed, if you blow your whole clip you are sitting there waiting 14+ seconds loading a single shell. 

 

Everyone remember when the TVP 50-51 was tuned down because it was statistically over-performing? Yea, the waffle e-100 was doing only 50 average damage less, but remained untouched. 

 

Impenetrable corridor TD's with 850 alpha? Just fine. Medium tanks that require brain cells and positioning? Nerf!

 

Stats are great, except when they are analyzed by "gameplay experts" with an 800 wn8. 


Edited by Dat Chungus tho, 26 March 2019 - 01:07 PM.


Jodmeister #11 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:02 PM

    Captain

  • Supertest - Xbox One
  • 18757 battles
  • 1,241
  • [BDGR]
  • Member since:
    08-20-2013

View Postswamp_fox_009, on 26 March 2019 - 12:26 PM, said:

Hmmmm. Doesn't the 1st graph show that the Ariete on console is outperforming the average of all other medium Tier 8s on console? Every skill level from players with 45% win rate all the way to 60% win rates are doing better in this tank as compared to the average medium.

 

It certainly seems to, but that doesn't suit the 'Italians have been nerfed' agenda of certain people. 

3 MOEs - Nashorn, M36 Jackson, SU-100, S35CA, Matilda IV, Jagdpanzer IV, Archer, Wolverine, Achilles, T25/2, PzSflIVC

2 MOEs - Type 58, Pzkpfw T25, WT Pz IV, JagdPanther, SU-100Y, Boilermaker, T20, IS-2, T-34-88, Borsig, AMX AC 48, Charioteer, Plaguebringer, T67, SU-85


skHydroFlasksk #12 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:11 PM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 10425 battles
  • 229
  • [MDKP]
  • Member since:
    02-12-2014

Why was ROF and reload removed from the Italian tanks in the Tankpedia?  Even the non auto-re-loaders had those stat variables removed.

https://console.worldoftanks.com/en/encyclopedia/vehicles/italy/It14_P44_Pantera


"I will rain death upon all who oppose me. I am the embodiment of sky cancer and I will make you rue the day you dare cross into my view and sit thy tank still. Some call me arty scum, but they are fools! I am become sky cancer the destroyer of balance and even if you close in to close range I will call upon the gods of rng and shotgun you into condemnation for no one will associate with a tanker who cannot take out an artillery."  -Unholy Lucipurr 2017 (dictated but not read)


MaxChaos24 #13 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:23 PM

    Gameplay Expert

  • Administrator
  • 13190 battles
  • 20,877
  • [WGW]
  • Member since:
    09-15-2013

View PostUnholy Lucipurr, on 26 March 2019 - 08:11 AM, said:

Why was ROF and reload removed from the Italian tanks in the Tankpedia?  Even the non auto-re-loaders had those stat variables removed.

https://console.worldoftanks.com/en/encyclopedia/vehicles/italy/It14_P44_Pantera

 

Auto-reloaders don't have a single reload value, they have a per-shell reload. They also do not have a static RoF value as it's a variable RoF. They were removed as they don't apply to these vehicles. :honoring:

skHydroFlasksk #14 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:28 PM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 10425 battles
  • 229
  • [MDKP]
  • Member since:
    02-12-2014
The fact that my screenshots of the WOT console tankopedia are being deleted is quite telling.

"I will rain death upon all who oppose me. I am the embodiment of sky cancer and I will make you rue the day you dare cross into my view and sit thy tank still. Some call me arty scum, but they are fools! I am become sky cancer the destroyer of balance and even if you close in to close range I will call upon the gods of rng and shotgun you into condemnation for no one will associate with a tanker who cannot take out an artillery."  -Unholy Lucipurr 2017 (dictated but not read)


skHydroFlasksk #15 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:28 PM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 10425 battles
  • 229
  • [MDKP]
  • Member since:
    02-12-2014

View PostMaxChaos24, on 26 March 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

 

Auto-reloaders don't have a single reload value, they have a per-shell reload. They also do not have a static RoF value as it's a variable RoF. They were removed as they don't apply to these vehicles. :honoring:

 

There are static reload values for each shell.  The premium 8 had them listed and they worked as intended.

"I will rain death upon all who oppose me. I am the embodiment of sky cancer and I will make you rue the day you dare cross into my view and sit thy tank still. Some call me arty scum, but they are fools! I am become sky cancer the destroyer of balance and even if you close in to close range I will call upon the gods of rng and shotgun you into condemnation for no one will associate with a tanker who cannot take out an artillery."  -Unholy Lucipurr 2017 (dictated but not read)


CptBadger #16 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:34 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15127 battles
  • 1,683
  • [BEARD]
  • Member since:
    07-11-2015

View PostMaxChaos24, on 26 March 2019 - 01:23 PM, said:

 

Auto-reloaders don't have a single reload value, they have a per-shell reload. They also do not have a static RoF value as it's a variable RoF. They were removed as they don't apply to these vehicles. :honoring:

 

reload still applies, it just has 3 values. no? how are we supposed to know what they are?

MaxChaos24 #17 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:35 PM

    Gameplay Expert

  • Administrator
  • 13190 battles
  • 20,877
  • [WGW]
  • Member since:
    09-15-2013

View PostUnholy Lucipurr, on 26 March 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

 

There are static reload values for each shell.  The premium 8 had them listed and they worked as intended.

 

"There are static reload values for each shell"

  • Correct, that's what I said, there is a per-shell reload. There currently isn't a per-shell reload display to display this information.

 

"The premium 8 had them listed and they worked as intended."

  • I don't know what you mean. The Ariete does not have a reload value or RoF displayed either. 

 

 

 



MaxChaos24 #18 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:36 PM

    Gameplay Expert

  • Administrator
  • 13190 battles
  • 20,877
  • [WGW]
  • Member since:
    09-15-2013

View PostCptBadger, on 26 March 2019 - 08:34 AM, said:

 

reload still applies, it just has 3 values. no? how are we supposed to know what they are?

 

Reload and per-shell reload are two different values. We are still working on adding a per-shell reload display for these vehicles. :honoring:

CptBadger #19 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:40 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 15127 battles
  • 1,683
  • [BEARD]
  • Member since:
    07-11-2015

View PostMaxChaos24, on 26 March 2019 - 01:36 PM, said:

 

Reload and per-shell reload are two different values. We are still working on adding a per-shell reload display for these vehicles. :honoring:

 

ok, thanks. whilst you are working on that could you tell us the values for them?

MaxChaos24 #20 Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:42 PM

    Gameplay Expert

  • Administrator
  • 13190 battles
  • 20,877
  • [WGW]
  • Member since:
    09-15-2013

View PostCptBadger, on 26 March 2019 - 08:40 AM, said:

 

ok, thanks. whilst you are working on that could you tell us the values for them?

 

P.44 PANTERA

  • Turret 1: Cannone da 90/53 Gun: 9s / 11s
  • Turret 1: Cannone da 90/74 Gun: 9s / 11s
  • Turret 2: Cannone da 90/74 Gun: 10.6s / 12.6s / 13.6s

Prototipo Standard B

  • Turret 1: Cannone da 90 Rh Gun: 10.1s / 11.1s / 13.1s
  • Turret 1: Cannone da 105 Rh V1 Gun: 15.7s / 17.7s / 20.7s
  • Turret 2: Cannone DA 105 RH V1 Gun: 15.7 / 17.7s / 19.7s

Progetto M40 mod. 65

  • Cannone da 150/51 M68 Gun: 13s / 15s /17s 19s





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users