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Machine nerfed?


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wake_the_move #21 Posted 13 November 2019 - 11:16 AM

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View PostD4rk50ul-v2, on 09 July 2019 - 07:01 AM, said:

This tank needs major nerfs all around.. It outclasses most tanks and is idiot proof to play. Frontal armor nerf, reload nerf, and top speed for sure.

 

A frontal armor nerf would take away one major aspect of this vehicle, which is to ram more lightly armored vehicles. The top speed is not much of a concern, since the Machine often does not even reach it, due to p/w ratio and ground resistances. 
 

Reload nerf only in exchange for higher alpha and/or a fifth shell, since it‘s dpm is already lower compared to AMX 50b or a T57 Heavy, plus it‘s inferior penetration values.


Most Machines are played by experienced and frequent players, not casuals. That might be a reason, why it‘s performing well.

 


Edited by wake_the_move, 13 November 2019 - 11:22 AM.


SirDerp-a-lot #22 Posted 13 November 2019 - 05:45 PM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 13 November 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

The top speed is not much of a concern, since the Machine often does not even reach it, due to p/w ratio and ground resistances.

 

The top speed is the worst thing about the tank. At least two maps are broken exclusively due to this tank (Abbey and Nomonhan), no other tank has the necessary combination to do what it does.

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 13 November 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

Reload nerf only in exchange for higher alpha and/or a fifth shell, since it‘s dpm is already lower compared to AMX 50b or a T57 Heavy, plus it‘s inferior penetration values.

 

Both T57 and AMX have weak turrets, unlike the Machine. Nerf it hard, no compensation.

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 13 November 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

Most Machines are played by experienced and frequent players, not casuals. That might be a reason, why it‘s performing well.

 

Why do you think that? Values for Ace Tankers are very low, that can only be explained by a lot of stupid drivers.

 

What I see in games matches that: A lot of yolo moves on the one hand, and no required skill to make decent games.

 

It's the ultimate tank for losers: Either you lose the game in a Machine, or the Machine wins the game for you.



wake_the_move #23 Posted 14 November 2019 - 08:28 AM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot, on 13 November 2019 - 05:45 PM, said:

The top speed is the worst thing about the tank. At least two maps are broken exclusively due to this tank (Abbey and Nomonhan), no other tank has the necessary combination to do what it does.

Both T57 and AMX have weak turrets, unlike the Machine. Nerf it hard, no compensation.

Why do you think that? Values for Ace Tankers are very low, that can only be explained by a lot of stupid drivers.

What I see in games matches that: A lot of yolo moves on the one hand, and no required skill to make decent games.

It's the ultimate tank for losers: Either you lose the game in a Machine, or the Machine wins the game for you.

This tank almost never reaches those 67 kph. Maybe downhill, but even on flat surface you won‘t be above 60kph before you reach your next encounter. The Chieftain turret got a pretty weak cupola, and players are already exploiting this. Yes it is a sturdier turret than of the other two overall, but they pack more firepower, due to higher alpha, better rof and pen values.

So if you lose the game in a Machine it‘s your fault and if you win, it‘s only due to the Machine? The Machine still has got enough weaknesses (low HP, big target, weak sides, etc.) to not be as no-brain as you try to display it. There is still some skill required to actually being effective in this tank. But how about you complete the contract and see for yourself.


Edited by wake_the_move, 14 November 2019 - 08:30 AM.


SirDerp-a-lot #24 Posted 14 November 2019 - 11:26 AM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

This tank almost never reaches those 67 kph. Maybe downhill, but even on flat surface you won‘t be above 60kph before you reach your next encounter.

 

A heavy tank that only goes 60 km/h? Oh the humanity! How can people cope?!

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

The Chieftain turret got a pretty weak cupola, and players are already exploiting this.

 

It's also a small copula, and you have very little time to aim before it unloaded its clip on you and is gone again.

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

So if you lose the game in a Machine it‘s your fault and if you win, it‘s only due to the Machine?

 

Exactly. It's the same with a couple of other tanks (T1 E6, V/IV, Absolution) that enable idiot players to have decent games.



wake_the_move #25 Posted 14 November 2019 - 12:14 PM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot, on 14 November 2019 - 11:26 AM, said:

 

A heavy tank that only goes 60 km/h? Oh the humanity! How can people cope?!

It's also a small copula, and you have very little time to aim before it unloaded its clip on you and is gone again.

Exactly. It's the same with a couple of other tanks (T1 E6, V/IV, Absolution) that enable idiot players to have decent games.

Does the AMX 50b not do the same? Afaik it reaches that velocity even faster and more reliably. Heaviums like the Object 277/WZ-111 5A aren‘t that far behind either. Long Range The Machine can‘t unload it‘s clip reliably on you. Even with it‘s aim time it needs longer than the intra-clip reloads to aim fully. At close range you probably won‘t need to aim at the cupola.

 

The Absolution is far from the threat it had been a year ago. Many people have figured out how to deal with it. I manage to kill T1 E6‘s in my Steadfast, due to a huge advantage in view range combined with a sufficient gun. I saw enough Machines fail, respectively killing them myself, so it‘s far from a guaranteed win, even more so if the pilot is an idiot.


Edited by wake_the_move, 14 November 2019 - 12:15 PM.


SirDerp-a-lot #26 Posted 14 November 2019 - 01:21 PM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 01:14 PM, said:

Does the AMX 50b not do the same? Afaik it reaches that velocity even faster and more reliably. Heaviums like the Object 277/WZ-111 5A aren‘t that far behind either. Long Range The Machine can‘t unload it‘s clip reliably on you. Even with it‘s aim time it needs longer than the intra-clip reloads to aim fully. At close range you probably won‘t need to aim at the cupola.

 

The Absolution is far from the threat it had been a year ago. Many people have figured out how to deal with it. I manage to kill T1 E6‘s in my Steadfast, due to a huge advantage in view range combined with a sufficient gun. I saw enough Machines fail, respectively killing them myself, so it‘s far from a guaranteed win, even more so if the pilot is an idiot.

 

I have to say that I get the impression that you are not even reading what's right in front of you. Everything you say here has already been answered.



wake_the_move #27 Posted 14 November 2019 - 02:23 PM

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And I have the impression we‘re now getting into the phase of the argumentation, where one participant tries to warp and distort the others arguments, or try to confuse the other.

 

Long story short...yes, the Machine is a pretty good tank with some strong points. However, reasons for not tagging it as OP are it‘s lesser HP pool, weak sides, tall&big silhouette (arty magnet), and subpar penetration values. 



SirDerp-a-lot #28 Posted 14 November 2019 - 04:05 PM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 03:23 PM, said:

And I have the impression we‘re now getting into the phase of the argumentation, where one participant tries to warp and distort the others arguments, or try to confuse the other.

 

Stop doing that then.

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 03:23 PM, said:

Long story short...yes, the Machine is a pretty good tank with some strong points. However, reasons for not tagging it as OP are it‘s lesser HP pool, weak sides, tall&big silhouette (arty magnet), and subpar penetration values. 

 

It's not just a number of distinct advantages, it's the combination that makes it op.



wake_the_move #29 Posted 14 November 2019 - 08:47 PM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot, on 14 November 2019 - 04:05 PM, said:

 

Stop doing that then.

It's not just a number of distinct advantages, it's the combination that makes it op.

That was not pointed towards myself. Quite the contrary.

Soso, the number of distinct advantages are what makes it op. By that argument almost 2/3 of all available tanks can be considered op. Can‘t be that bad then.


Edited by wake_the_move, 14 November 2019 - 08:47 PM.


SirDerp-a-lot #30 Posted 15 November 2019 - 04:34 AM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

That was not pointed towards myself. Quite the contrary.

 

In that case: Please don't make up stuff just because you feel like it.

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

Soso, the number of distinct advantages are what makes it op.

 

As I said, stop making stuff up. I said almost the exact opposite of what you "repeat".



wake_the_move #31 Posted 15 November 2019 - 06:54 AM

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So, 

View PostSirDerp-a-lot, on 15 November 2019 - 04:34 AM, said:

 

As I said, stop making stuff up. I said almost the exact opposite of what you "repeat".

Do you have the opinion that the Machine is OP, or not?



SirDerp-a-lot #32 Posted 15 November 2019 - 09:48 PM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 15 November 2019 - 07:54 AM, said:

Do you have the opinion that the Machine is OP, or not?

 

Is that still unclear? I don't think so.

 

I just pointed out that you "repeated" the opposite of what I actually said.



wake_the_move #33 Posted 15 November 2019 - 11:57 PM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot, on 15 November 2019 - 09:48 PM, said:

 

Is that still unclear? I don't think so.

 

I just pointed out that you "repeated" the opposite of what I actually said.

That‘s not the answer to my question.



SirDerp-a-lot #34 Posted 16 November 2019 - 02:57 AM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 16 November 2019 - 12:57 AM, said:

That‘s not the answer to my question.

 

You can find the answer yourself by applying a small dose of rational thought.



wake_the_move #35 Posted 16 November 2019 - 07:46 AM

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Judging by your first post your opinion is that The Machine is OP. I wholeheartedly disagree. And I didn’t repeat your claims, but simply contradicted, respectively refuted. It would be repetition if there was some kind of coherency between us, but there isn‘t.

 

Judging by the content of your last posts you are becoming deceiving, arrogant, and provoking, instead of talking to the matter. 


Edited by wake_the_move, 16 November 2019 - 07:52 AM.


SirDerp-a-lot #36 Posted 16 November 2019 - 02:20 PM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 16 November 2019 - 08:46 AM, said:

And I didn’t repeat your claims, but simply contradicted, respectively refuted.

 

So this is you contradicting me?

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 14 November 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

Soso, the number of distinct advantages are what makes it op. By that argument almost 2/3 of all available tanks can be considered op. Can‘t be that bad then.

 

You think that the "number of distinct advantages" (not their combination) makes a tank op, you think that 2/3 of all tanks are op, and you like it.

 

Well that's a contradiction to my position all right, but I wouldn't say that you "refuted" anything.



SirDerp-a-lot #37 Posted 16 November 2019 - 02:23 PM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 16 November 2019 - 08:46 AM, said:

Judging by the content of your last posts you are becoming deceiving, arrogant, and provoking, instead of talking to the matter.

 

Deceiving? I love it when people run out of arguments and develop a keen sense of telepathy all of a sudden.

 

Dude, don't misquote me if you can't take the heat.



wake_the_move #38 Posted 17 November 2019 - 08:02 AM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot, on 16 November 2019 - 02:23 PM, said:

 

Deceiving? I love it when people run out of arguments and develop a keen sense of telepathy all of a sudden.

 

Dude, don't misquote me if you can't take the heat.

So I ran out of arguments? Judging by the course of this thread you were the one starting diversions. And there is no heat here. Again, come with some substance regarding The Machine, or leave it. Yet, since you neither own, nor have driven it I know where your claims are coming from. Those few you gave are rebuted.


Edited by wake_the_move, 17 November 2019 - 08:04 AM.


SirDerp-a-lot #39 Posted 17 November 2019 - 12:52 PM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 17 November 2019 - 09:02 AM, said:

So I ran out of arguments? Judging by the course of this thread you were the one starting diversions. And there is no heat here. Again, come with some substance regarding The Machine, or leave it. Yet, since you neither own, nor have driven it I know where your claims are coming from. Those few you gave are rebuted.

 

"The heavy tank only goes 60 km/h, so it's not op" was your rebuttal. Yeah right.

 

In any case, at least you dropped that subthread where you pulled things I said out of your backside. An apology would have been nice, but since this is the Internet....



wake_the_move #40 Posted 18 November 2019 - 05:39 PM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot, on 17 November 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

 

"The heavy tank only goes 60 km/h, so it's not op" was your rebuttal. Yeah right.

In any case, at least you dropped that subthread where you pulled things I said out of your backside. An apology would have been nice, but since this is the Internet....

This is no original quote, so why do you mark it as such? Further I also argued on other criteria than it’s speed, like armor, profile and armament.

 

But to pick this up, I said that this thing hardly ever reaches 60 kph even on flat hard surface. Yet actually it already takes a while reaching even 55. Throw in medium terrain and things get even worse. Yes, 67 kph looks very good on paper, but the truth sometimes isn‘t found in pure stat analysis, which you are relying upon.

 

Another perfect example for that very same issue is the Chieftain. Indeed, 42 kph top speed looks better (on paper) than the other two British tier X heavies‘, yet that puny 750 hp engine and the therefore not too good p/w ratio is making sure of that you’ll hardly eher go faster than a Super Conq. Uphill you‘ll be even slower than the other, maybe due to the worse ground resistances on hard and medium terrain, which negates any p/w ratio advantage the Chieftain has over the Super Conq. Things would be different, if WG had granted the Chieftain the same 950 hp engine that the (Super) Conq. has got, or even better the 1040 hp engine from the British top tier mediums...but they didn‘t. 

 

So again, the devil‘s in the detail. And you‘d know, if you had acquired the Machine yourself and experienced it‘s strengths as well as it‘s flaws first hand. So far your opinion is only based on it’s plain stats, and maybe some bad experiences, like being destroyed by some skilled Machine players. 
 

I do not know why I should apologize, since you were the one starting warping this discussion, trying to distract from the subject. Just stay on the matter and all is fine. Or better, try to obtain a Machine for yourself at the next given opportunity, play it, and find out yourself.


Edited by wake_the_move, 18 November 2019 - 10:38 PM.





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