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Centurion Mk 7/1: Premium Ammo's a joke


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TheTotalPackage7 #1 Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:32 AM

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I've been playing with the fully upgraded Centurion Mk 7/1 for the past 2 days now and I'm finding the stats for the premium ammo to be inaccurate. It says the penetration range is 158-263mm thick and I'm shooting tanks under the 158mm thickness and I'm not doing near the damage that these rounds should be. I've shot Leopard PTA's in the front armor (70mm thick) and my damage is way under the 360-600 range. This shouldn't be. The same goes for many other lightly armored tanks. It does well when I shoot them in the rear, but hey these premium rounds are made to shoot tanks anywhere the armor is thin. Very frustrating because I need to be able to rely on my tank's abilities. It's a great tank, but I'm very disappointed with the unreliability of the premium rounds. Also, I realize distance is a factor but these shots weren't from that far off.


Edited by TheTotalPackage7, 23 May 2019 - 03:33 AM.


Gallant Prime #2 Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:41 AM

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I am going to guess someone more informed than I could explain it to you better, but I believe it shoots HESH.  Think like the Deathstar HESH if you have used that tank.  It does funny things sometimes--particularly when it does not penetrate, say by hitting a module.  Do you have a video clip by chance?  It would certainly help.  

 


HomicidalApple0 #3 Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:51 AM

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The premium rounds on that tank like other UK tanks is HESH which if you hit any spaced armor will detonate before penetrating. Just like any other tank shooting HESH it can troll you

CheweyBadge #4 Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:55 AM

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It's HESH hence why you find yourself not penning things reliably. You need to be accurate. Tracks and more armoured parts of the tank will take the damage in and you'll only do about 100 or so. Same with spaced armour. For example the side of an E100 you won't pen with HESH whereas the side of an E75 you'll pen with HESH as long as its flat on its side 

TheTotalPackage7 #5 Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:04 AM

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View PostGallant Prime, on 23 May 2019 - 03:41 AM, said:

I am going to guess someone more informed than I could explain it to you better, but I believe it shoots HESH.  Think like the Deathstar HESH if you have used that tank.  It does funny things sometimes--particularly when it does not penetrate, say by hitting a module.  Do you have a video clip by chance?  It would certainly help.

 

Correct, they're HESH rounds. I believe this is the first tank that I've owned that has these type of rounds for premium. I wish I had video of it, maybe I'll record some of my gameplay. So I guess HESH rounds aren't always reliable. Maybe it's the angle of the enemy tank that keeps the HESH from taking full effect.



TheTotalPackage7 #6 Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:12 AM

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View PostHomicidalApple0, on 23 May 2019 - 03:51 AM, said:

The premium rounds on that tank like other UK tanks is HESH which if you hit any spaced armor will detonate before penetrating. Just like any other tank shooting HESH it can troll you

 

Yep, I definitely feel trolled. Spaced armor is generally a factor, but tanks like the Leopard have no armor spacing in the front. I took a shot at a Standard B as well and it did the same thing. Some shots work like they should and some shots don't. I don't like the unreliability. It's still a great tank even with the trolling premium ammo. I'm having some nice games in this tank. I just hit a TD in the side for 530 damage. That's not bad for a Tier IX medium.

 

Update: I just shot a Bulldog with a max of 38mm thickness and I only do 152 damage. Grrrr.


Edited by TheTotalPackage7, 23 May 2019 - 04:31 AM.


Gallant Prime #7 Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:25 AM

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View PostTheTotalPackage7, on 22 May 2019 - 10:12 PM, said:

 

Yep, I definitely feel trolled. Spaced armor is generally a factor, but tanks like the Leopard have no armor spacing in the front. I took a shot at a Standard B as well and it did the same thing. Some shots work like they should and some shots don't. I don't like the unreliability. It's still a great tank even with the trolling premium ammo. I'm having some nice games in this tank. I just hit a TD in the side for 530 damage. That's not bad for a Tier IX medium.

 

Yeah when you said Leopard before it did give me pause as there is no spaced armor but tracks.  Sometimes shots hit barrels or mantles or turret rings as well.  I have played a lot of games in the 7/1 and honestly don't remember using the premium rounds because the base pen is so good.    


 


Executos #8 Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:37 AM

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210 HESH pen are absolutely insane

 

That's the best thing about the whole tank. You can penetrate almost every Weakspot in the game with 210pen


 

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Koncorde #9 Posted 23 May 2019 - 06:44 AM

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HESH does not do spaced (like tracks) or angled armour well, regardless of thickness. So firing at the front of a well angled tank is prone to absolute failure. The trick is usually to fire at the armour that is as close to 90 degrees (i.e. flat facing you) regardless of thickness, rather than trying to aim for thinner angled armour, and to aim for where you know an enemy module is for the bonus damage potential of crippling an enemy tank.

 

Unfortunately tanks move, aim deviates, and angles change during flight, and spaced armour is everywhere at tier 8 upwards, so it can get very inconsistent outcomes to such an extent that it's actually just as effective in a lot of cases to just fire the cheap HESH because your damage is actually coming from the explosion rather than any penetration values. I can guarantee that HESH will goose you every time you fire at artillery.

 

So as examples of specific tanks; it is optimum is to aim for:

 

1. The flatter lower plate of the IS3/IS4/IS7 and related tanks rather than the pike nose.

2. The rear of most tanks, but particularly the rear of German big-boy turrets, because the angle is often less than the engine compartments.

3. The cupola of American tanks, and also any sticky-out flat object next to thin flat armour (hit the T110E5 in the Cupola and it will splash down into the roof, the flatter and more flush parts at the rear of their turrets).

4. Just inside the front wheel of most tanks will get a guaranteed tracking shot, and may penetrate weaker side armour to the transmission.

5. Bulbous parts to the rear of tank turrets (Emil, Kranvagn, French heavies) where there is often ammo and / or radio and commander.

6. Any obvious driver hatch / view ports / machine gun ports that are actually modelled in game (drivers periscope on E100 for instance). They are often 70mm or less, and often adjacent to weaker flat armour and also you can routinely knock out crew.

7. LFP on Brit tanks for pretty much guaranteed ammo rack.

8. If you feel like firing, and you aren't spotted, and you have support - don't do it. Just wait a few seconds to see if the turret rotates. A lot of players look using their turret rather than locking the turret in position towards a threat. Sometimes in a busy gunfight you can just wait out their patience until they turn to face someone or assume you are no longer looking at them - then you hit them for the bigger damage and modules.

 

As HESH is explosive, it can and will knock out crew or damage modules more effectively than AP by exploding into compartments. Also because it can and will do damage against most tanks frontally, even if only 100hp, you can sit back and chip away at bigger tanks and / or wait for them to be distracted before aiming for obvious weakspots. Often it is much better to be slinging cheap HESH at a VK100 or tougher from distance every 10 seconds and doing 75 to 250 hp of damage with the occasional low roll or big splash, than it is to be firing AP and bouncing. Waiting for the turret to turn, or for their hull armour to angle to offer you the roof of the engine deck will get you the big points you are looking for. Once you have them tracked, or in a weak position - switch up to AP or Premium HESH and then begin chipping off the big chunks of health.



matematicalone #10 Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:19 AM

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Yup, HESH stinks against tracks or spaced armor, so take that 210mm pen with some reserve. It's indeed 210 mm pen but only against ''pure'' armor. Also be aware that HESH will explode if it hits any obstacle (like destructable wall or those funny cars parked on the streets). To sum it up, it's a powerful round, does more dmg than AP round when it pens and destroys modules and crew members almost every time.



 


mockney_piers #11 Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:50 AM

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Effective armour thickness is important to HESH.

 

I'm guessing armour was angled somehow either using slope or juking...

 

was he ridgelining?

Only  a little less than that and you'd have full damage range, but if he was using slopes, this would be a typical scenario.

standard ammo would pen. HESH is a tricky old customer.

 

Or did he jink and juke at the last second.

according to armorinspector at this angle your potential damage drops drastically



atwilliams07 #12 Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:05 AM

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View PostTheTotalPackage7, on 23 May 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

 

Yep, I definitely feel trolled. Spaced armor is generally a factor, but tanks like the Leopard have no armor spacing in the front. I took a shot at a Standard B as well and it did the same thing. Some shots work like they should and some shots don't. I don't like the unreliability. It's still a great tank even with the trolling premium ammo. I'm having some nice games in this tank. I just hit a TD in the side for 530 damage. That's not bad for a Tier IX medium.

 

Update: I just shot a Bulldog with a max of 38mm thickness and I only do 152 damage. Grrrr.

 

why aren’t you using the standard AP rounds with 268mm of pen?  ... up there with the best pen on a tier 9 tank (ex-TD’s)

 

much more reliable in my experience.  HESH is for softer targets, or well aimed weak spots.



Morpheus02007 #13 Posted 24 May 2019 - 11:21 AM

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View PostTheTotalPackage7, on 23 May 2019 - 05:12 AM, said:

 

Yep, I definitely feel trolled. Spaced armor is generally a factor, but tanks like the Leopard have no armor spacing in the front. I took a shot at a Standard B as well and it did the same thing. Some shots work like they should and some shots don't. I don't like the unreliability. It's still a great tank even with the trolling premium ammo. I'm having some nice games in this tank. I just hit a TD in the side for 530 damage. That's not bad for a Tier IX medium.

 

Update: I just shot a Bulldog with a max of 38mm thickness and I only do 152 damage. Grrrr.

 

That's why I prefer the Centurion AX instead of the FV4202. The FV4202 got the same premium HESH and no high pen HEAT or APCR round, only the standard APCR with 268mm pen...And that's not enough to pen tier X tanks from the front like the the turret cheeks of the E100 etc....The 330mm pen HEAT from the Centurion AX doesn't got that problem. Other then that (turret ring excluded) the FV4202 is great.
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ThermalStone #14 Posted 26 May 2019 - 10:00 PM

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I'm getting used to the premium HESH.  Unlike normal premium ammo, you are paying more money for a dpm increase rather than increased penetration. 

 

As a rule of thumb, I normally shoot premium shells at same tier heavies and anything tougher.  With premium HESH it's the opposite.  I shoot it at same tier poorly armored tanks and lower tier stuff.  I had a game today where I killed an IS-M (1400 hp) with three premium HESH shells when it would have taken at least 4 APCR shells.


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V4nquished79 #15 Posted 27 May 2019 - 07:29 AM

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Strange things with this HESH - shooting a same spot on a tank - 22! dmg and than switching HE - 130 dmg...I have 7/1 for few days and find ordinary HE to make more damage. And if HESH can't penetrate it should make some damage but shooting the turret of is7, e100 - zero...

Koncorde #16 Posted 27 May 2019 - 10:29 AM

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Both the final shells are HESH. Just one is cheap HESH, and yes, I find when spamming shots the damage is dealt when the explosion goes through weaker armour. It therefore doesn't matter if you actually pen frontally, and instead both the Premium and Cheap HESH work identically in many situations.

V4nquished79 #17 Posted 28 May 2019 - 11:30 AM

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What about BC 25t premium hesh non penetration in the rear of the tank? "We didn't penetrate"...bad joke with 0 damage. How exactly high explosive is blocked from paper armour and make no damage? Just unacceptable rng.

BigHundy #18 Posted 01 June 2019 - 07:08 PM

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For some odd reason, this gun and HESH trolls me a lot.

But the FV4202 HESH has been absolutely DEADLY.

Not sure if it's the soft stats of the gun, but the 7/1's gun loves to troll me. Especially the HESH.

 


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f1mitku #19 Posted 04 June 2019 - 08:53 AM

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I don’t like these trolling HESH rounds too (except on Death Star or Trash Barn). So I use them on Centurion 7/1 rarely and prefer the more reliable standard rounds. That’s why I think I’ll like Cent. AX more than FV4202 when I buy them on the next T-X sale. 


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JPollocksNo5 #20 Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:17 PM

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 They're unreliable full stop. Think of it like playdoh on a table - as that is what it is really. Pick it up and slap it down, a very satisfying noise and wide, uniform splat - this would give a nice base for the HE to explode against.

 

If there was something on the table, say, some coasters or the table was moving, there'd be a weird splatter and less or minimal contact and therefore less explosion or chance of penning. Can't explain that well using poor metaphors.

 

You will get almost a guaranteed tracking shot, though, so it can be useful against bat chats and the like. Lights etc.

 

Although movement is underplayed in whether a shot penned. I bounced a Kv2 in my tier 5 French light becasue I was moving. How can you 'bounce' HE? I've also watched HESH rounds 'bounce' and literally riccochet which should be impossible.

 

Switiching between rounds is also pointless and takes too much time. I learned to accept low rolls, or only change when circumstances dictate - i.e. there are only flat sided German heavies and weirdly armoured turreted tanks, or lights left.

 

As always, fully aim in. Taking a second or 2 will save a missed pen or low roll and the next 15 seconds of reload.

 

baby hesh can be good for something you can't normally pen but doing 100 damage rolls is a slow way to kill an E5.

 

 






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