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Are Auto-Loaders more difficult to play than single shooters?

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P6X330 #1 Posted 17 June 2019 - 11:44 PM

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I am leaving out the auto-reloader tanks of this comparison, because you are not actively controlling the replenishing of your magazine in the same way you do in an auto-loader.

 

I am asking this question, since I watch the World of Tanks content contributors, and some of them clearly dislike anything that is not a single shooter. This is also a matter of preference, I know.

 

But my question concerns the level of game experience required to play an auto-loader. I think, and you can disagree with me, that playing an auto-loader is more demanding.

 

rationale:

1) a full magazine reload takes more time than a single shot load. That accentuate the risk of being rushed when the enemy knows he can shoot you several times before you are able to return fire;

2) intra-clip reload is not always faster than single shoot reload. You can be rushed by a tank who knows that it can destroy you by shooting twice before you can shot again.

3) A bounce, non penetration, target miss is more penalizing in an auto-loader. If you attack with just enough damage potential to destroy your opponent with a full magazine, losing one shot puts you at its mercy.

4) Invariably, the autoloader player gets caught in the dilemma: should I launch a reload now? and if you do at the wrong time, you may have signed your own destruction, as you had not taken into account that light tank that just appeared from nowhere!

5) To reload your container, in some cases, you have to move your left thumb from the stick, to press a command on the D pad. If you are in runaway mode, you cannot activate the reload until you are far enough to dare leaving the stick to depress the button. Unless you engage the cruise control. But in all cases, it is one more issue.

6) You may end up with an ammunition count for which a reload will only get you less shells than the full magazine capacity. A single shooter automatically switches between ammunition type when depleted. With an autoloader, you may go through a full reload only to notice you only had one shell left. Admittedly, there are ways to avoid it. Always shoot your full magazine to initiate the reload is one of them. But you may not want to do that always. Especially in auto-loaders with limited ammunition count.

7) Because of the longer interruptions between active or passive shooter, also related to vehicle, you have to constantly assess your strategy to avoid being rushed. It is true for all tanks, but a lot more when in an auto-loader. During these longer reload, there is not much you can do to assist other tanks, and that may change the outcome of the battle.

8) Ammunition choices; you always have to supply in magazine capacity amount, which impose your quantity selection. Does not make any sense to supply 3 HE shells if your magazine capacity is 5.

9) Unlike a single shooter, ammunition type switch means a full reload. So you always have to make your decision ahead of time, and anticipate what you will be facing, and sometimes, because you have an inadequate ammunition type, you have to reload a full container. I can't pen that tank with spaced armor because I am loaded with HEAT...

10) An ammorack in an autoloader is much more penalizing if you cannot repair it.

 

Did I forget anything?

Do you agree that playing an autoloading tank requires more involvement to be successful? or not? and why?


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SirDerp-a-lot #2 Posted 18 June 2019 - 12:05 AM

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I think they very cleary are more difficult to play. Wether or not they are more effective overall is a different question, but I would like to get my hand on a Batchat with the 430U's armor to collect some data.

atwilliams07 #3 Posted 18 June 2019 - 01:29 AM

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Totally agree.  I only have a couple of French auto-loaders, and can’t say I have mastered them, as my games are very up and down.  However, when you can create the right conditions, they are deadly and fun to play. 

 

The only other point I’d add to your list would be needing to carefully manage what to engage and when - the numbers of reds and their hit points, and knowing what support they have becomes more important than in a single shot.

 

 



CheweyBadge #4 Posted 18 June 2019 - 01:48 AM

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Waffle has entered the chat 

AKalashnikovT #5 Posted 18 June 2019 - 02:35 AM

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They're more difficult in the sense that no auto loader, without exception, is a stand alone tank. Someone has to cover your reload, preferably not another auto loader, although if you have three auto loaders you should be alright. This inherently means that if you not toon'd up you might run into some problems. Most players don't have the foresight much less the knowledge that auto loaders cannot be left defenseless, yes they can dish out lots of damage, but just like a death star they are completely vulnerable during reload. Identify friendly auto loaders and back them up, your assisted damage from keeping vehicles tracked while the auto loaders deliver the damage could easily put you head and shoulders above everyone on your team.

 

Another point about clip management, if you do not have a full clip and you are moving to engage another enemy reload on your way to that target. Even if your only one shot short of a full clip, reload. And the most important aspect of all is to call out your reload, your team is not counting how many shots your firing, the only person that knows the status of your magazine is you. 

 

Examples:

 

Full reload, followed by the time needed to finish that reload.

 

Forcing a reload, again followed by the time required to finish that reload

 

1 shot left, 2 shots left, etc

 

Count down your reload i.e. 

 

"Full reload, 22 sec, 10 sec, 3 sec, reloaded.

 The more information you can provide your team about the contents of your clip and the progress of your reload the better you will preform.



ThermalStone #6 Posted 18 June 2019 - 03:35 AM

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Autoloader play is the epitome of skill in WoT.  You have to have map awareness and read the flow of battle.  Appear in the right spot as soon as your reload is done, dump your clip and retreat without taking return fire.  If you try to carefully place each shot you'll take too long and get hit in return.  Most players can't handle it.  That's why most players can't deal more than a clip worth of damage before dying and why players with skills can seriously pad Wn8.

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deadman1921 #7 Posted 18 June 2019 - 04:02 AM

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P6X330 #8 Posted 18 June 2019 - 04:37 AM

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View PostAKalashnikovT, on 17 June 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

They're more difficult in the sense that no auto loader, without exception, is a stand alone tank.

I would take exception, if you allow me. A fast auto-loader can use its speed to rabbit while reloading. When I am playing a light, I scout, and snap shot if I get the opportunity. I do not really worry about reloading unless I happen into a school of lights. However, this is when looking at the bill board before the battle pays. Dead give away is a platoon made up of 4 lights. You know they are going to hunt has a pack, in this case, you don't venture too much out. But if I see too many lights in the red team, then I try to pair with another light, and if not possible, then I play conservatively. For heavies, and to a certain extent, medium tanks, it makes sense to not be too far away from assistance. Unless you are in a Lorraine 40t, or a Bat-Chat 25t AP or not.

Someone has to cover your reload, preferably not another auto loader, although if you have three auto loaders you should be alright.

Providing they don't reload all at the same time. In a platoon, it is fine, you can coordinate reloads. But in free flow, I am never counting on any help from anybody else. If it comes, good. But I don't expect anything.

This inherently means that if you not toon'd up you might run into some problems. Most players don't have the foresight much less the knowledge that auto loaders cannot be left defenseless,

Most of your "one time" allies play their "own" game, as I was told in non uncertain words, because I dared asking for assistance on a flank I was defending by myself.

yes they can dish out lots of damage, but just like a death star they are completely vulnerable during reload. Identify friendly auto loaders and back them up, your assisted damage from keeping vehicles tracked while the auto loaders deliver the damage could easily put you head and shoulders above everyone on your team.

 

 

Another point about clip management, if you do not have a full clip and you are moving to engage another enemy reload on your way to that target. Even if your only one shot short of a full clip, reload. And the most important aspect of all is to call out your reload, your team is not counting how many shots your firing, the only person that knows the status of your magazine is you. 

You may be surprised, but the good players do memorize how many shots have been released, especially on the opposite side. In my medium tanks, in certain circumstances, if I am shooting at a target which I will not destroy with my last shell, I keep it. Just as a deterrent to any bold light tank or other medium that would then appear thinking I am on a reload. It has saved me a few times. Just that one last shot out of my clip induces confusion (I think) and the belligerent may doubt that his count was accurate. 

I learned that the hard way with my Bat-Chat AP. After shooting my 6th, I would see some tanks suddenly coming from nowhere....

 

Examples:

 

Full reload, followed by the time needed to finish that reload.

 

Forcing a reload, again followed by the time required to finish that reload

 

1 shot left, 2 shots left, etc

 

Count down your reload i.e. 

 

"Full reload, 22 sec, 10 sec, 3 sec, reloaded.

 The more information you can provide your team about the contents of your clip and the progress of your reload the better you will preform.

I always publicize my reloads and ready to fire. But I don't think anyone cares much. Unless there are only a few of us left, and then people pay more attention.

 


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P6X330 #9 Posted 18 June 2019 - 04:40 AM

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View PostThermalStone, on 17 June 2019 - 09:35 PM, said:

Autoloader play is the epitome of skill in WoT.  You have to have map awareness and read the flow of battle.  Appear in the right spot as soon as your reload is done, dump your clip and retreat without taking return fire.  If you try to carefully place each shot you'll take too long and get hit in return.  Most players can't handle it.  That's why most players can't deal more than a clip worth of damage before dying and why players with skills can seriously pad Wn8.

 

Shoot and fly away works well with a fast tank.

 

Not so much in the Nomad, or any of the other 50-100, 50-120, 50B. They are not really heavies, but they are not really medium either. So, as far as dumping and retreating, it is a lot more difficult. Which actually adds one more layer to the subject.

Playing heavy auto-loaders is even more difficult!


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im_balthazur #10 Posted 18 June 2019 - 01:41 PM

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The Skoda T 50, in the right hands, is deadly. 

 

But it let me join the crowd of AMX and BC “warriors” in their OP and OA tanks and say...

 

The Skoda T 50 needs a serious ammo buff! 8 round clip and 96 rounds on board! 

 

Yea I know, it sounds stupid, just like when the AMX and BC crowd whine and complain.



AKalashnikovT #11 Posted 18 June 2019 - 05:23 PM

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View PostP6X330, on 18 June 2019 - 04:37 AM, said:

 

Obviously lights don't suffer from the stand alone rule and I'm lumping the French mediums in this group as well. I'm speaking more to the auto loading heavies as heavies is what I do. And as far as counting shots the point I was making is that players in your team don't count shots, we've all baited shots out of a 57 so that we could rush it. Always assume the opposite team knows when you're on a reload and around about how long it's going to take to reload.



P6X330 #12 Posted 19 June 2019 - 01:13 PM

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View PostAKalashnikovT, on 18 June 2019 - 11:23 AM, said:

 players in your team don't count shots, we've all baited shots out of a 57 so that we could rush it. Always assume the opposite team knows when you're on a reload and around about how long it's going to take to reload.

 

Absolutely; there are very few exceptions to that rule, however, I was surprised to do a battle in tandem with a B/C 12t in my AMX 12t. We attacked in pair, and retreated in pair. Or offset. He obviously knew when I was reloading, although I was communicating about it.

We ended up cleaning up the field.

But generally speaking, yes, the "team" is everything but that....


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ThermalStone #13 Posted 19 June 2019 - 02:39 PM

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View PostP6X330, on 17 June 2019 - 08:40 PM, said:

 

Shoot and fly away works well with a fast tank.

 

Not so much in the Nomad, or any of the other 50-100, 50-120, 50B. They are not really heavies, but they are not really medium either. So, as far as dumping and retreating, it is a lot more difficult. Which actually adds one more layer to the subject.

Playing heavy auto-loaders is even more difficult!

 

The TT french heavies have high top speed.  Easily fast enough to wolfpack with lights or mediums.  Acceleration is a little slow is head for cover or go downhill when you are done shooting.

 

 


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Chalupacobra #14 Posted 20 June 2019 - 03:45 AM

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They do change how you need to play. My first autoloader and actual light tank was the Lycan.  I had to watch some videos to learn. I also didn’t know about d-pad reload for the longest time. I’d just fire off my last shell or switch ammo types.

They are the only tanks I announce my reload. I don’t want teammates to think I’m just chilling and not contributing. If a situation looks bad and I’m reloading, sorry, but I’m bailing. Reload on my way to the next target or area. I’ve left some tanks hanging, but two of us dying is not productive.

The BC 12t is my favorite at the moment followed by the BC 25t AP.

wake_the_move #15 Posted 25 June 2019 - 11:04 AM

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In order to play an auto loader you need sufficient „foresight“. This even increases the longer the vehicle‘s reload time is. The Italians‘ auto loading mechanism gives a certain amount of flexibility.

 

I am personally not fond of large magazine, like the 6-shooters and above. An exception is the AMX 13 57, which reload time and intra-clip reload are superb. Reloading the entire clip or switching ammo type is not painful, and the short intraclip makes sure you can dump more than half a clip on any strafing run. 

 

I hope that the Swedish Heavies are soon changed on console, because their new configuration makes them play way more effectively.



P6X330 #16 Posted 25 June 2019 - 08:24 PM

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I wish I knew someone who had the "Intuition" perk trained, to see how it goes with an autoloader... say you have already loaded three, and have two more to go; you decided to switch ammo.; do you actually continue or restart from scratch?

 

 

Anyone?


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SirDerp-a-lot #17 Posted 26 June 2019 - 09:36 AM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 25 June 2019 - 12:04 PM, said:

I am personally not fond of large magazine, like the 6-shooters and above. An exception is the AMX 13 57, which reload time and intra-clip reload are superb. Reloading the entire clip or switching ammo type is not painful, and the short intraclip makes sure you can dump more than half a clip on any strafing run. 

 

Agree with the sentiment, but there are a couple of tanks with a clip reload time similar to the AMX 13 57, like the AMX Chaffee and the Strv m/42-57.

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 25 June 2019 - 12:04 PM, said:

I hope that the Swedish Heavies are soon changed on console, because their new configuration makes them play way more effectively.

 

I don't think they need a buff.



wake_the_move #18 Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:57 PM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot, on 26 June 2019 - 09:36 AM, said:

 

Agree with the sentiment, but there are a couple of tanks with a clip reload time similar to the AMX 13 57, like the AMX Chaffee and the Strv m/42-57.

I don't think they need a buff.

 

The AMX Chaffee is quick on reloading it‘s full clip, but the intra clip reload is a bit slow for a „6-shooter“, even though it deals 135 avg. damage per shot. A 1.5 sec reload would be desirable. I do not own the latter, so I won‘t comment about it.

 

I think the Swedish heavies as they are on PC now are far more favorable than their old version, which is still existent on console. This also goes more in line with the Emil 1951, which I hope will arrive on console as a purchasable premium sooner than later.



SirDerp-a-lot #19 Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:21 PM

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View Postwake_the_move, on 26 June 2019 - 07:57 PM, said:

The AMX Chaffee is quick on reloading it‘s full clip, but the intra clip reload is a bit slow for a „6-shooter“, even though it deals 135 avg. damage per shot. A 1.5 sec reload would be desirable. I do not own the latter, so I won‘t comment about it.

 

Of course a 1.5 second reload would be "desirable", but how many tanks have this kind of reload?

 

View Postwake_the_move, on 26 June 2019 - 07:57 PM, said:

I think the Swedish heavies as they are on PC now are far more favorable than their old version, which is still existent on console.

 

Of course a buff would make them more "favorable", my point is that I don't think they need to be. They work fine right now.



Koncorde #20 Posted 03 August 2019 - 12:51 PM

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Some of them are easier to play. The Skoda T25 and the Chi-Ri become much more dangerous with that small clip option, same with the Italians, suddenly able to dump a decent amount of alpha for tier if accurate, and get clear without taking too many return shots.

Tanks like the T71 thrive on the clip capacity, because their mobility and general quality of the gun is such that if moving you can clip people out - but it also works as a sneaky sniper when harassing enemies.

In contrast I find the French mediums have poor gun quality, and their aim on the move is woeful unless right up behind someone.

When you get to heavies you then run into the issue of how they are balancing the burst potential Vs a stock gun. For instance the 50B in nobodies world of it just had the single shot gun would be balanced with its generally poor armour - but if they buffed the armour the option of the clip gun would be broken also as it could stay hull down blasting people with impunity.

Ultimately the issue is around what is the planned target for your gun.

The lower tiers are not designed to clip out. They are designed to do a chunk of damage and flee with relatively quick reloads. They are blessed with mobility and rapid interclip firing.

The higher tiers are often built around the concept of clipping the enemy out, but there are so many tanks that their guns are unable to deal with in a single clip that this functionally only works for tanks like the Waffle. Other tanks can only hope to put a serious amount of hurt on the enemy and then bank on a teammate either finishing them during the reload phase, or have already damaged the tank before you started.

Immediately the issue becomes one of having good teammates, and being largely reliant on how well they can contribute. I can't count the number of times I have been hung out to dry in a single shot tank where I know my reload is coming relatively quickly. So when I play an autoloader this issue is just straight up exacerbated.

It's why platoons of autoloaders work best, particularly if teamed with a standard armed tank with a more reasonable reload. For instance two T57's and a Patton will be more formidable and flexible in a platoon than a pack of Skoda T50's, as the Patton will be able to finish up enemies or soften them up for the burst capacity of the 57's where the Skoda's are liable to have blown their ammo out and then be left  waiting on a reload.




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