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The MachineNeeds a huge nerf hammer

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x_BAlN_x #41 Posted 17 August 2019 - 01:53 PM

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View PostCatSnipah, on 17 August 2019 - 07:38 AM, said:

But what does the magic spreadsheet say?

 

The more times you let a tank kill you without learning how to counter it, the large the nerf.

Pit Friend #42 Posted 17 August 2019 - 02:08 PM

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View PostThee Turtle God, on 16 August 2019 - 09:00 PM, said:

Easy fix to the machine, drop the top speed to 50. Done.

 

This I’ll agree with. This stupid thing should not be able to chase down Light tanks. 


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FusionStar287 #43 Posted 17 August 2019 - 07:15 PM

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View PostChr15py, on 17 August 2019 - 07:50 AM, said:

I love it that people are trying to defend the machine...it’s probably the singular most OP tank in the game due to the components that make it up. I don’t worry about coming face to face with a death star any more but a Machine will make me think twice!

 

Let me try to explain: The  turret is the turret - other tanks use it and so that on its own isn’t OP. However, the inclusion of the un-nerf’d TVP gun and IS7 engine  makes it a complete nightmare to deal with. At least when you bump into a T57 heavy! You can still pen the turret even at Max gun depression. This thing...not a chance unless you’ve got Jäger pen or shooting HESH. 

 

I like the Mercenary tanks - some are balanced quite well but others are just stupid! The Machine is one of the latter. 

 

Chris

You can literally always pen a Machine with any gun that can meet it regardless of how well it uses its armor. When hull down there's a rather large cupola that can be easily penned and the area below the cupola is weak to most premium shells (unless the Machine player is using their full gun depression), and when not hull down you can easily go through any part of its side that sticking out (if they're angled even the slightest bit), the angled plated above the tracks, or the lower plate near its tracks. And, unlike the Deathstar, you can feel rather safe when fighting a Machine when you're in an armored heavy tank since the Machine actually has very low pen for the tier. 


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USSWISCONSIN94 #44 Posted 17 August 2019 - 07:21 PM

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Well here we go again.

 

Drop the speed to 50kph, nerf the engine BHP to 900-1000 and switch the reload of the gun to the TVP's to 31 and give the TVP the older reload (Inter clip should either stay the same or nerf it again for it) and put the inter clip to 1.95. 

 

Saying the side armor is weak is why it shouldn't be nerfed is a joke. Yes it is weak and has the hull sides that you can hit. doesn't change the fact it's if not the best tier 10 in the game. It's broken. 

 

View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 05:19 AM, said:

The AMX 50B is literally only 2kph slower, and the IS-7 can do 60kph while also having fantastic armor (unlike the 50B and Machine). Fast heavies are nothing new.

 

IS-7 only gets there if you push it off a cliff fusion. but even so. IS-7 is great but isn't OP. a gun buff or a mobility buff (mainly GR) would be nice


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FusionStar287 #45 Posted 17 August 2019 - 07:39 PM

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View PostUSSWISCONSIN94, on 17 August 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

Well here we go again.

 

Drop the speed to 50kph, nerf the engine BHP to 900-1000 and switch the reload of the gun to the TVP's to 31 and give the TVP the older reload (Inter clip should either stay the same or nerf it again for it) and put the inter clip to 1.95. 

 

Saying the side armor is weak is why it shouldn't be nerfed is a joke. Yes it is weak and has the hull sides that you can hit. doesn't change the fact it's if not the best tier 10 in the game. It's broken. 

 

 

IS-7 only gets there if you push it off a cliff fusion. but even so. IS-7 is great but isn't OP. a gun buff or a mobility buff (mainly GR) would be nice

What you're suggesting would change the Machine from a well balanced, if not slightly overtuned tank to a garbage tank that isn't worth playing. Right now the Machine has drawbacks for each of its strengths, like having mediocre traverse speeds and being unable to reach its top speed when moving up even the slightest slope, its gun having poor pen and a low clip potential, and its armor being garbage unless the enemy aim center mass or get unlucky.

 

That all said, I honestly do agree that the Machine is probably the best tier X currently (the Kranvagn might be better, but I'm not yet decided), but it's only the best tier X in a good or great players hands (because those players can min-max its weaknesses and strengths). For your typical random the Machine really isn't a good tank at all, and that's the reason for why you see so many Machine players doing almost nothing before being knocked out.


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Chr15py #46 Posted 17 August 2019 - 07:45 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 07:15 PM, said:

You can literally always pen a Machine with any gun that can meet it regardless of how well it uses its armor. When hull down there's a rather large cupola that can be easily penned and the area below the cupola is weak to most premium shells (unless the Machine player is using their full gun depression), and when not hull down you can easily go through any part of its side that sticking out (if they're angled even the slightest bit), the angled plated above the tracks, or the lower plate near its tracks. And, unlike the Deathstar, you can feel rather safe when fighting a Machine when you're in an armored heavy tank since the Machine actually has very low pen for the tier. 

 

I think I’ve been the unlucky one with every The Machine I’ve met as my shells just bounce. The turret cupola is the same as on the chieftain mk6 and randomly I never miss that. Maybe it’s just RNG but hey ho.

 

Chris 


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Tempest fox3 #47 Posted 17 August 2019 - 07:52 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 07:39 PM, said:

What you're suggesting would change the Machine from a well balanced, if not slightly overtuned tank to a garbage tank that isn't worth playing. Right now the Machine has drawbacks for each of its strengths, like having mediocre traverse speeds and being unable to reach its top speed when moving up even the slightest slope, its gun having poor pen and a low clip potential, and its armor being garbage unless the enemy aim center mass or get unlucky.

 

That all said, I honestly do agree that the Machine is probably the best tier X currently (the Kranvagn might be better, but I'm not yet decided), but it's only the best tier X in a good or great players hands (because those players can min-max its weaknesses and strengths). For your typical random the Machine really isn't a good tank at all, and that's the reason for why you see so many Machine players doing almost nothing before being knocked out.

 

The Chieftain cupola is quite small. The vision device below the cupola isn't a weakspot as has 351mm of Armour behind it.

 

The Chieftain turret only has two weakspots from the front and on the machine one of them is covered by the TVP gun mantle. 


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FusionStar287 #48 Posted 17 August 2019 - 07:58 PM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 17 August 2019 - 02:52 PM, said:

 

The Chieftain cupola is quite small. The vision device below the cupola isn't a weakspot as has 351mm of Armour behind it.

 

The Chieftain turret only has two weakspots from the front and on the machine one of them is covered by the TVP gun mantle. 

I should have clarified, I didn't mean the vision port beneath the cupola is a weak point, but the turret face below that (to the side of the gun).


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Tempest fox3 #49 Posted 17 August 2019 - 08:05 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 07:58 PM, said:

I should have clarified, I didn't mean the vision port beneath the cupola is a weak point, but the turret face below that (to the side of the gun).

 

Which is covered by the TVP mantle on the machine. 

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FusionStar287 #50 Posted 17 August 2019 - 08:06 PM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 17 August 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

 

Which is covered by the TVP mantle on the machine. 

No, you're thinking of the area directly above the gun. I'm talking about the turret face towards the side of the tank.


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USSWISCONSIN94 #51 Posted 17 August 2019 - 08:08 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

What you're suggesting would change the Machine from a well balanced, if not slightly overtuned tank to a garbage tank that isn't worth playing. Right now the Machine has drawbacks for each of its strengths, like having mediocre traverse speeds and being unable to reach its top speed when moving up even the slightest slope, its gun having poor pen and a low clip potential, and its armor being garbage unless the enemy aim center mass or get unlucky.

 

That all said, I honestly do agree that the Machine is probably the best tier X currently (the Kranvagn might be better, but I'm not yet decided), but it's only the best tier X in a good or great players hands (because those players can min-max its weaknesses and strengths). For your typical random the Machine really isn't a good tank at all, and that's the reason for why you see so many Machine players doing almost nothing before being knocked out.

 

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TransparentBlue #52 Posted 17 August 2019 - 08:26 PM

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View PostEnigmatic Benn, on 17 August 2019 - 10:26 AM, said:

The only thing making the tank seem 'OP' is other players inability to learn it's weakspots. Shooting the side of the tank at almost any angle is a pen, if it's facing you directly you can just shoot the upper part of its tracks to go through it's shoulders for yet another easy pen and a track.. It only bounces as much as it does because people seem to think they can brute force through the centre of the hull, nor does anyone just shoot the weakspot above the gun and rarely the cupola.

Pretty sure Max has already replied to one of these witch hunt posts saying the tank is performing in line with most other tanks.

 

The shoulders above the tracks are a highly advantageous place to have a weak spot.  Miss the spot, miss the tank more than half the time.  And the turret is clearly better than the Chieftain's.

 

Just because a lot of potatoes got it and think they're invincible and rush deep into red territory with it is no excuse to have a Wacky Racestm tank this overpowered in the game. It's by far the best Tier 10 light tank. 



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View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

What you're suggesting would change the Machine from a well balanced, if not slightly overtuned tank to a garbage tank that isn't worth playing. Right now the Machine has drawbacks for each of its strengths, like having mediocre traverse speeds and being unable to reach its top speed when moving up even the slightest slope, its gun having poor pen and a low clip potential, and its armor being garbage unless the enemy aim center mass or get unlucky.

 

That all said, I honestly do agree that the Machine is probably the best tier X currently (the Kranvagn might be better, but I'm not yet decided), but it's only the best tier X in a good or great players hands (because those players can min-max its weaknesses and strengths). For your typical random the Machine really isn't a good tank at all, and that's the reason for why you see so many Machine players doing almost nothing before being knocked out.

 

And? Wargames has nerfed a couple of Merc tanks into damn near uselessness the last time they “balanced” things because they were “overperforming”. In the case of the Stubbs right after the first contract for it ended. 

 

That being said I still think the stupid thing needs to lose some speed. Besides making it less annoying to fight as it wouldn’t be able to chase any tank down or easily run away after dumping a mag into something a speed reduction might help keep people from outrunning their entire team and getting shredded. 


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D1RT3AGG #54 Posted 17 August 2019 - 09:03 PM

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View Postdeadman1921, on 16 August 2019 - 06:48 PM, said:

So you’re not literally asking for a giant hammer made by Nerf to be mounted on it?

Sorry I misunderstood.

 

ps: was just kidding by the way

Don't say that kind of thing around these parts...WG might actually listen this time, and start a new rash of comic book tanks. :hiding:



Tempest fox3 #55 Posted 17 August 2019 - 09:43 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

No, you're thinking of the area directly above the gun. I'm talking about the turret face towards the side of the tank.

 

The bit that's 300+ effective unless people are above you aiming down? 


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FusionStar287 #56 Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:08 PM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 17 August 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

 

The bit that's 300+ effective unless people are above you aiming down? 

The left side of the turret (when aiming at it) is about 270-290mm of effective armor when on level ground with the Machine and doesn't get to be more than 300-330mm effective until the tank is using about seven degrees of gun depression. It's not one of the "weak points" per say, but it is very susceptible to being penned by most tier IX and X premium ammo.


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FusionStar287 #57 Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:15 PM

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View PostPit Friend, on 17 August 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

 

And? Wargames has nerfed a couple of Merc tanks into damn near uselessness the last time they “balanced” things because they were “overperforming”. In the case of the Stubbs right after the first contract for it ended. 

 

That being said I still think the stupid thing needs to lose some speed. Besides making it less annoying to fight as it wouldn’t be able to chase any tank down or easily run away after dumping a mag into something a speed reduction might help keep people from outrunning their entire team and getting shredded. 

I honestly don't see why so many people seem to find a issue with the Machine's speed. I mean, it is an incredibly fast tank, but at the same time it doesn't reach that top speed except when traveling down a slope and most of the time the Machine only travels at about 50-60kph depending on the terrain (and slower up slopes, obviously). And again, it's barely any faster than the AMX 50B, which is also capable of charging down enemy lights and mediums with an autoloader.


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Pit Friend #58 Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:37 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 05:15 PM, said:

I honestly don't see why so many people seem to find a issue with the Machine's speed. I mean, it is an incredibly fast tank, but at the same time it doesn't reach that top speed except when traveling down a slope and most of the time the Machine only travels at about 50-60kph depending on the terrain (and slower up slopes, obviously). And again, it's barely any faster than the AMX 50B, which is also capable of charging down enemy lights and mediums with an autoloader.

 

The 50B is an autoloader that’s nearly as fast as the Machine true. But its gun doesn't fire as fast, reload as fast, or aim as fast. Especially when it’s on the move like chasing down a Light tank. The Machine will hit with pretty much every shot even on the move while the 50B can be counted on to miss at least one and probably two shots even if it’s stationary and fully aiming. 

 

The 50B also doesn’t have any particularly useful armor. Even a fleeing Light can just autolock and will blow holes in the thing most of the time. Meanwhile most tanks that try that against the Machine will just bounce off it’s turret, making it a lot harder to fight back against. The 50B’s speed is mostly only useful for relocating to reload its gun. 

 

The Machine is stupid fast for what it’s weight should be. A true Heavy tank with usable armor really shouldn’t be faster than Light tanks. 


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FusionStar287 #59 Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:47 PM

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View PostPit Friend, on 17 August 2019 - 05:37 PM, said:

 

The 50B is an autoloader that’s nearly as fast as the Machine true. But its gun doesn't fire as fast, reload as fast, or aim as fast. Especially when it’s on the move like chasing down a Light tank. The Machine will hit with pretty much every shot even on the move while the 50B can be counted on to miss at least one and probably two shots even if it’s stationary and fully aiming. 

 

The 50B also doesn’t have any particularly useful armor. Even a fleeing Light can just autolock and will blow holes in the thing most of the time. Meanwhile most tanks that try that against the Machine will just bounce off it’s turret, making it a lot harder to fight back against. The 50B’s speed is mostly only useful for relocating to reload its gun. 

 

The Machine is stupid fast for what it’s weight should be. A true Heavy tank with usable armor really shouldn’t be faster than Light tanks. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue that the AMX 50B is a better tank or even close to as good (in fact, I'd argue that it's one of the worst tier Xs currently). That said, I can't say I agree that the Machine will hit "pretty much every shot", especially on the move, and if a Machine player does decide to rush down an enemy but doesn't finish them off then that Machine player is extremely vulnerable for a time.

 

Also, saying that the Machine is a true heavy tank is a massive stretch. Its armor is easily worse than almost every other tier X heavy tank, as well as being worse than some tier X mediums and TDs, and as such its speed is much more warranted (especially considering its large size and mediocre mobility as well). Plus the Kranvagn also exists, which actually does have incredible armor and is still capable of traveling at about 60kph down a slope and 40-50kph along the flat, yet I don't hear anyone ever complaining about that tank (despite the fact that it might actually be a better tank than the Machine). 


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Tempest fox3 #60 Posted 17 August 2019 - 11:01 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 17 August 2019 - 10:08 PM, said:

The left side of the turret (when aiming at it) is about 270-290mm of effective armor when on level ground with the Machine and doesn't get to be more than 300-330mm effective until the tank is using about seven degrees of gun depression. It's not one of the "weak points" per say, but it is very susceptible to being penned by most tier IX and X premium ammo.

 

It's 270-285 effective on flat ground. 360+ If fighting a ridge using gun depression. If it can only be penned with prammo and even then not all the time you really can't call it a weakspot or say that it makes the tank weak.

 

It's a heavium, a smart player isn't going to rely on its Armour. But it does have enough Armour. It can't be RB/RTed from the front. The enemy has to take time to aim meanwhile you can dump 1280 on them in 4.5s and pull back. 

 

It's stronger than the TVP ever was. 


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