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Why you can't hit circling tanks - a theoretical analysis

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M4ntiX #1 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:01 PM

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Ever wondered why you can't hit that pesky light tank that is trying to circle you to death? Well, I have...

I couldn't shake the thought of how silly this is and in real life my shell would reach the target nearly instantly. There was even a time I have put my tinfoil hat on and thought the lag is intentional and is there to prevent RB + RT (autoaim) kills. It turns out there is a much better and simpler explanation. So, by the power of Occam's razor, let's cut to the chase.

 

Let's assume the following parameters in this theoretical scenario:

 

Hardware
Server lag: 100 ms (bad case scenario)
Input latency: 70ms (Xbox is known for having a 3-6 frame delay on 60fps games; yes, I know WOT runs on 30fps due to 360 reasons)

 

In game
Light tank speed: 50 km/h
Light tank length: 6 metres
Distance to target: 50 metres
Shell velocity: 1000 m/sec

 

Now, let's calculate how this would play out.

Shell travel time @ 50 metres with 1000 m/sec is 50ms. Plus server lag and input latency, we get 220ms total delay (nearly a quarter second) between trigger pull and shell reaching its target. Tank travelling at 50 km/h moves 3.06 metres every 220 miliseconds. Given that most light tanks are shorter than 6 metres and Autolock aims at the centre of the mass, by the time shell reaches its mark, the light tank is no longer there and shell flies behind it. I didn't even factor in the gun's aiming time and/or dispersion, as it doesn't matter. Even if the gun was perfectly accurate, it would still miss the tank aiming at centre of mass. (Actually, you have a better chance of hitting your tank on a miss in this case, since the shell may deviate left or right from dead centre, giving you more deflection) :D

 

This is why it is necessary to lead targets that are travelling perpendicularly in relation to your tank, even at distances as low as 50 metres. Of course, the amount of lead depends on individual conditions and will differ greatly between you hardware, server connection, tanks used, etc..., but the concensus is you cannot simply Auto Lock on those targets. You have to aim manually.

 

Not sure if this helps anyone, but it sure put my mind at ease. Back to storage with you, tinfoil hat!

 

Good luck & good hunting, tankers!

 

PS. If you think this is unrealistic and 220 milliseconds is too long, blink twice. That's right, a literal blink of an eye is between 100-150 ms.


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Warthog II #2 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:09 PM

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Saw long post, did a quick  ctrl+f and searched for turret.

 

 

Is there a chance you're missing a variable here?


  

Some people claim Ensk should be tier restricted.   I don't believe their lies. 

Imagine if this forum had only players who actually win more than lose trying to tell others how to play. Would be the best forum ever. Instead, we have a bunch of bad advice from players who lose more often than not trying to tell their betters how to play their tanks.

 


M4ntiX #3 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:12 PM

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View PostWarthog II, on 08 November 2019 - 12:09 PM, said:

Saw long post, did a quick  ctrl+f and searched for turret.

 

 

Is there a chance you're missing a variable here?

 

Nope.

"I live in reality and let me tell you, there is no one here."

"For some reason you feel the need to troll stink bomb a statement of fact."

"4 kids single father 2 boats a plane 3cars and more battles than you."

"Jesus you smegheads are whiny about your Epeens."


Warthog II #4 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:17 PM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 08 November 2019 - 12:12 PM, said:

 

Nope.

 

The turret rotation speed of the tank firing doesn't matter with RB/RT here? Interesting.

 

Why doesn't the NFL combine just use hand-held stop watches  instead of electronic timers?   


  

Some people claim Ensk should be tier restricted.   I don't believe their lies. 

Imagine if this forum had only players who actually win more than lose trying to tell others how to play. Would be the best forum ever. Instead, we have a bunch of bad advice from players who lose more often than not trying to tell their betters how to play their tanks.

 


M4ntiX #5 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:21 PM

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View PostWarthog II, on 08 November 2019 - 12:17 PM, said:

 

The turret rotation speed of the tank firing doesn't matter with RB/RT here? Interesting.

 

Why doesn't the NFL combine just use hand-held stop watches  instead of electronic timers?   

 

If you take the time to read my post, I will take the time to respond to yours. Or perhaps there won't be any need for it then. :)


"I live in reality and let me tell you, there is no one here."

"For some reason you feel the need to troll stink bomb a statement of fact."

"4 kids single father 2 boats a plane 3cars and more battles than you."

"Jesus you smegheads are whiny about your Epeens."


SPUK4U #6 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:30 PM

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Why do you sit still and only rotate your turret when light tank circles you? Stop calculating and move out of the circle, shoot the pesky thing, that's the solution. Staying still just makes things easy for light tank and as a bonus you end up target for arty.
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XLilabnerX #7 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:32 PM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 08 November 2019 - 12:21 PM, said:

 

If you take the time to read my post, I will take the time to respond to yours. Or perhaps there won't be any need for it then. :)

 

I am wondering if the other poster was trying to get at your lead the light tank comment and the rotation speed of turret isn't fast enough?

 



M4ntiX #8 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:36 PM

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View PostXLilabnerX, on 08 November 2019 - 12:32 PM, said:

 

I am wondering if the other poster was trying to get at your lead the light tank comment and the rotation speed of turret isn't fast enough?

 

 

Tommy, turret rotational speed or whether you are able to follow the target with your gun is irrelevant in this scenario. This analysis is designed to explain why you can't hit a perpendicularly moving tank when you have your aim already set on it... Had the poster read my thread, he would've known that.

"I live in reality and let me tell you, there is no one here."

"For some reason you feel the need to troll stink bomb a statement of fact."

"4 kids single father 2 boats a plane 3cars and more battles than you."

"Jesus you smegheads are whiny about your Epeens."


M4ntiX #9 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:46 PM

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View PostSPUK4U, on 08 November 2019 - 12:30 PM, said:

Why do you sit still and only rotate your turret when light tank circles you? Stop calculating and move out of the circle, shoot the pesky thing, that's the solution. Staying still just makes things easy for light tank and as a bonus you end up target for arty.

 

Cute. :D I'm sorry for using all those complicated words, especially "theoretical." Good advice though, thanks.

"I live in reality and let me tell you, there is no one here."

"For some reason you feel the need to troll stink bomb a statement of fact."

"4 kids single father 2 boats a plane 3cars and more battles than you."

"Jesus you smegheads are whiny about your Epeens."


alvarado79936 #10 Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:55 PM

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Back away and turn opposite of his circle. Never chase a light with your turret , you'll never win

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M4ntiX #11 Posted 08 November 2019 - 01:00 PM

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View Postalvarado79936, on 08 November 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

Back away and turn opposite of his circle. Never chase a light with your turret , you'll never win

 

Again... Good advice but nothing to do with this thread.

"I live in reality and let me tell you, there is no one here."

"For some reason you feel the need to troll stink bomb a statement of fact."

"4 kids single father 2 boats a plane 3cars and more battles than you."

"Jesus you smegheads are whiny about your Epeens."


vVMr GoodCatVv #12 Posted 08 November 2019 - 01:10 PM

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Errr im not sure people have read this properly.

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Tempest fox3 #13 Posted 08 November 2019 - 01:19 PM

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View PostWarthog II, on 08 November 2019 - 12:17 PM, said:

 

The turret rotation speed of the tank firing doesn't matter with RB/RT here? Interesting.

 

Why doesn't the NFL combine just use hand-held stop watches  instead of electronic timers?   

 

You could have all the turret rotation in the world and it wouldn't help you RB/RT a light tank moving perpendicular to your aim.

 

It can hinder you if you turret rotation is too low but since it'll only ever aim center mass (never any further forward) Mantix is correct. 


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FinlandRed #14 Posted 08 November 2019 - 01:46 PM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 08 November 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

 

You could have all the turret rotation in the world and it wouldn't help you RB/RT a light tank moving perpendicular to your aim.

 

It can hinder you if you turret rotation is too low but since it'll only ever aim center mass (never any further forward) Mantix is correct. 

 

Agreed.

 

Personally I try to back up or turn the whole tank not just the turret.



XLilabnerX #15 Posted 08 November 2019 - 02:31 PM

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View PostvVMr GoodCatVv, on 08 November 2019 - 01:10 PM, said:

Errr im not sure people have read this properly.

 

I am " WONDERING " if anyone notices they can only hope if they hit the circling light it slows them down. If your skilled at ' the circle of death ' you just keep cutting to the inside of the rotation. I am "wondering " why aren't the 2 points of view allowed, or is this going to get misunderstood and bullied?

Edited by XLilabnerX, 08 November 2019 - 02:34 PM.


RadiantPup27709 #16 Posted 08 November 2019 - 02:56 PM

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Learned I needed to compensate for latency very early on. Rounds leaving the muzzle at angles from the past were a dead giveaway.


vVMr GoodCatVv #17 Posted 08 November 2019 - 03:55 PM

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View PostXLilabnerX, on 08 November 2019 - 02:31 PM, said:

 

I am " WONDERING " if anyone notices they can only hope if they hit the circling light it slows them down. If your skilled at ' the circle of death ' you just keep cutting to the inside of the rotation. I am "wondering " why aren't the 2 points of view allowed, or is this going to get misunderstood and bullied?

 

im not sure what you mean by 2 points of view?

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MiikwanXxXiis #18 Posted 08 November 2019 - 03:57 PM

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Even after all these years playing, it often feels like trying to hit lights is like trying to hit an agent from the matrix. Atleast i feel like neo when i do hit them lol.

It varies game to game for me. Some games i have no issue hitting them. Others seem impossible to hit. Probably just problems with my ip.

TocFanKe4 #19 Posted 08 November 2019 - 04:01 PM

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I still use RB/RT to fight light tanks.  I just wait for them to turn so that I get a shot on them coming towards or away from me before I fire.  I also use manual, but RB/RT works if you can wait till the right moment to fire. 

 

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Warthog II #20 Posted 08 November 2019 - 04:19 PM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 08 November 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

 

You could have all the turret rotation in the world and it wouldn't help you RB/RT a light tank moving perpendicular to your aim.

 

It can hinder you if you turret rotation is too low but since it'll only ever aim center mass (never any further forward) Mantix is correct. 

It's never truly center mass on a moving target though

Maybe if there's some sort of latency that could explain why that's even more so?

 


Edited by Warthog II, 08 November 2019 - 04:19 PM.

  

Some people claim Ensk should be tier restricted.   I don't believe their lies. 

Imagine if this forum had only players who actually win more than lose trying to tell others how to play. Would be the best forum ever. Instead, we have a bunch of bad advice from players who lose more often than not trying to tell their betters how to play their tanks.

 






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