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Why you can't hit circling tanks - a theoretical analysis

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ooo NO ONE ooo #41 Posted 09 November 2019 - 09:04 AM

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Have you ever experienced the following and do you have an explanation:

2 lights driving in the same direction and virtually touching each other. Shoot centre mass and miss?

It's hardly game breaking as it happens so seldom (driving next to each other) but I can never understand why it happens?


 

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scwirpeo #42 Posted 09 November 2019 - 09:09 AM

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You have mistaken how RB RT works.

 

It's not auto locking to the server position of the enemy tank it's locking the position your client believes the tank is in.

 

 

If you RB RT a moving object while also moving, legitimately you're an idiot.


MOEs so I can pretend like they matter

Spoiler

 


M4ntiX #43 Posted 09 November 2019 - 09:21 AM

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View Postooo NO ONE ooo, on 09 November 2019 - 09:04 AM, said:

Have you ever experienced the following and do you have an explanation:

2 lights driving in the same direction and virtually touching each other. Shoot centre mass and miss?

It's hardly game breaking as it happens so seldom (driving next to each other) but I can never understand why it happens?

 

That's a different scenario but the delay principle remains the same. If you're both travelling parallel to each other, it may look like your tank is stationary in relation to one another but the shell you firing isn't. So effectively, both you and your target are out running the shells you're firing, thus you have to lead the target.

 

Think of a relay race. Two runners are running next to each other but what happens if they drop the baton? Does it follow them, or does it stay behind?


* MY TEAM IS ALWAYS MADE BY MONGOL TRISOMIC STYLE PLAY LIKE NO BRAIN! *

* I live in reality and let me tell you, there is no one here. * For some reason you feel the need to troll stink bomb a statement of fact. *

* 4 kids single father 2 boats a plane 3cars and more battles than you. * Jesus you smegheads are whiny about your Epeens. *


ooo NO ONE ooo #44 Posted 09 November 2019 - 09:22 AM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 09 November 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

 

That's a different scenario but the delay principle remains the same. If you're both travelling parallel to each other, it may look like your tank is stationary in relation to one another but the shell you firing isn't. So effectively, both you and your target are out running the shells you're firing, thus you have to lead the target.

 

Think of a relay race. Two runners are running next to each other but what happens when they drop the baton? Does it follow them, or does it stay behind?

 

But surely with the speed of the shell, the tank cannot outrun it? 

 

3 MoE's: None.


M4ntiX #45 Posted 09 November 2019 - 09:26 AM

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View Postooo NO ONE ooo, on 09 November 2019 - 09:22 AM, said:

 

But surely with the speed of the shell, the tank cannot outrun it? 

 

That's where my analysis comes in. It is designed to explain how and why exactly that's possible. While in real life it would never happen, in game it's a normal occurrence.

* MY TEAM IS ALWAYS MADE BY MONGOL TRISOMIC STYLE PLAY LIKE NO BRAIN! *

* I live in reality and let me tell you, there is no one here. * For some reason you feel the need to troll stink bomb a statement of fact. *

* 4 kids single father 2 boats a plane 3cars and more battles than you. * Jesus you smegheads are whiny about your Epeens. *


John-berg1995 #46 Posted 09 November 2019 - 02:20 PM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 08 November 2019 - 12:01 PM, said:

Ever wondered why you can't hit that pesky light tank that is trying to circle you to death? Well, I have...

I couldn't shake the thought of how silly this is and in real life my shell would reach the target nearly instantly. There was even a time I have put my tinfoil hat on and thought the lag is intentional and is there to prevent RB + RT (autoaim) kills. It turns out there is a much better and simpler explanation. So, by the power of Occam's razor, let's cut to the chase.

 

Let's assume the following parameters in this theoretical scenario:

 

Hardware
Server lag: 100 ms (bad case scenario)
Input latency: 70ms (Xbox is known for having a 3-6 frame delay on 60fps games; yes, I know WOT runs on 30fps due to 360 reasons)

 

In game
Light tank speed: 50 km/h
Light tank length: 6 metres
Distance to target: 50 metres
Shell velocity: 1000 m/sec

 

Now, let's calculate how this would play out.

Shell travel time @ 50 metres with 1000 m/sec is 50ms. Plus server lag and input latency, we get 220ms total delay (nearly a quarter second) between trigger pull and shell reaching its target. Tank travelling at 50 km/h moves 3.06 metres every 220 miliseconds. Given that most light tanks are shorter than 6 metres and Autolock aims at the centre of the mass, by the time shell reaches its mark, the light tank is no longer there and shell flies behind it. I didn't even factor in the gun's aiming time and/or dispersion, as it doesn't matter. Even if the gun was perfectly accurate, it would still miss the tank aiming at centre of mass. (Actually, you have a better chance of hitting your tank on a miss in this case, since the shell may deviate left or right from dead centre, giving you more deflection) :D

 

This is why it is necessary to lead targets that are travelling perpendicularly in relation to your tank, even at distances as low as 50 metres. Of course, the amount of lead depends on individual conditions and will differ greatly between you hardware, server connection, tanks used, etc..., but the concensus is you cannot simply Auto Lock on those targets. You have to aim manually.

 

Not sure if this helps anyone, but it sure put my mind at ease. Back to storage with you, tinfoil hat!

 

Good luck & good hunting, tankers!

 

PS. If you think this is unrealistic and 220 milliseconds is too long, blink twice. That's right, a literal blink of an eye is between 100-150 ms.

You've always had to aim manually. Nothing new here. 

 

I can tell you I'm almost certain our shell velocities are nerfed. Ever watch a PC replay and the shells are hitting almost as soon as it's firing ? (Talking about medium tanks with apcr) 

 

On tanks like the k-91 the shell is literally doing damage within the next few frames after the firing animation. Yet our shells seam to hang in the air for ages until they finally reach the target. 

 

Either our shell velocities are showing the same numbers but ours secretly are slower (to give us complacency)

 

Or they screwed up when making the game by making the game world to big on accident. thus in comparison to shell velocity. It might actually be going 1700 meters per second but the vast distance it has to cross makes it look slow. 

 

either way something isn't right. it's not lag either. My ping is around 22 on average. I doubt it's latency

 

Now I'm not speaking on the behalf of circling light tanks. That I already grasp. 

 

I just don't like how much slower our shells are to PC. Despite them having the same numbers. 



Pit Friend #47 Posted 09 November 2019 - 02:42 PM

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I’ve always been annoyed by this game in that you have to lead targets by large amounts even when the shell travel time should be near instantaneous. I hadn’t considered the input and server lag. Now it at least makes sense, even though it’s still annoying. Thanks!

When the nice guy loses his patience the devil shivers. 


pilotguy79 #48 Posted 09 November 2019 - 03:07 PM

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In this game. Any math is simply thrown out the window. The game puts numbers in i.e 1000ms shell velocity. It’s meaningless it may a well say “slow/medium/fastest” on a scaled down map. Those numbers become useless as the in game shell travel time from point to point remains the same. If it were accurate”shell velocity over distance”  would have a 1000 ms shell cover the complete map of 500 meters in 1/2 second.  You can quickly see how absurdly fast a enemy tank would have to be moving to avoid a shot on a map of 500 meters.





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