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Would a permanent +1 -1 benefit Wargaming or hurt it?

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Poll: Would Permanent +1 -1 Benefit or Hurt WoT? (133 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 50 battles in order to participate this poll.

Would Permanent +1 -1 Benefit or Hurt WoT?

  1. It would bring in more players, satisfaction, & revenue for WoT (98 votes [73.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 73.68%

  2. It would have a more negative effect with people leaving the game (35 votes [26.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.32%

Aside from how it affects Wargaming, would you prefer +1 -1?

  1. Yes (95 votes [71.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.43%

  2. No (38 votes [28.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

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SightlessRogue0 #61 Posted 08 November 2019 - 11:30 PM

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View PostJohn Arrowsmith, on 08 November 2019 - 10:42 PM, said:

As for all the polls people keep claiming mass victory with,  come on for goodness sake,   yes 70% but the 60 people (40 alts probs)who participated in the poll don't exactly represent the entire game population.:teethhappy:

If the polls had given the opposite result I am absolutely convinced that you would use against the +/- 1, without any hesitation. Personally the +/- 1 does not make me a better or a less good player ... it just makes the game more enjoyable.


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Knallteufel 777 #62 Posted 08 November 2019 - 11:43 PM

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View PostSightlessRogue0, on 09 November 2019 - 01:30 AM, said:

If the polls had given the opposite result I am absolutely convinced that you would use against the +/- 1, without any hesitation. Personally the +/- 1 does not make me a better or a less good player ... it just makes the game more enjoyable.

 

Polls in the forum are often overrated. The developers want as many answers as possible from the player base. That can be hundreds of thousands of opinions.

De4thSt4lker206 #63 Posted 08 November 2019 - 11:43 PM

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View PostSightlessRogue0, on 08 November 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

If the polls had given the opposite result I am absolutely convinced that you would use against the +/- 1, without any hesitation. Personally the +/- 1 does not make me a better or a less good player ... it just makes the game more enjoyable.

 

didn't you know? if people disagree with him they are just Stronk Soviet Bots.

Edited by De4thSt4lker206, 08 November 2019 - 11:44 PM.

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John Arrowsmith #64 Posted 08 November 2019 - 11:44 PM

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View PostSightlessRogue0, on 08 November 2019 - 11:30 PM, said:

If the polls had given the opposite result I am absolutely convinced that you would use against the +/- 1, without any hesitation. Personally the +/- 1 does not make me a better or a less good player ... it just makes the game more enjoyable.

 

really?   You think I would claim less than 50 players are a mass majority.  Last time I checked the game had more players than double figures, but I guess if I'm wrong and it's true that the game only has 80 players then feel free to go ahead and celebrate the mass victory.  Not sure what good it would do as the game wouldn't be around much longer.

 

It doesn't make the game any more enjoyable because the problems that need addressed still exist.

Spoiler

   

 

+2 mm isn't the problem and after many trials/events or whatever you want to call them it isn't even a good band aid.   


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John Arrowsmith #65 Posted 08 November 2019 - 11:49 PM

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View PostDe4thSt4lker206, on 08 November 2019 - 11:43 PM, said:

 

didn't you know? if people disagree with him they are just Stronk Soviet Bots.

 

Are you capable of having a discussion?  

 

I agreed that the tiny % of players(most likely alts) who voted have a majority for +1,    but  using less than 1% of the playerbase as a factor to try help the game move forward is bad.

 

I and many others want issues addressed,  not try a band aid that doesn't solve anything.


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De4thSt4lker206 #66 Posted 08 November 2019 - 11:58 PM

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View PostJohn Arrowsmith, on 08 November 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

 

 

I and many others want issues addressed,  not try a band aid that doesn't solve anything.

that is fair, but you are implying that you are not in fact in the minority on this issue (specifically forum opinion on +-1) and that the majority is only ahead due to tampering.

 

it is a child's argument to discredit something you disagree with.

 

 

i would personally re-balance this game for WG for free, as impartially and to the best of my ability as i could, hearing arguments for and against on this forum... but then again, yours, mine, and little billy down the street's opinion on balance doubtless differ so in the end someone is going to get upset. 


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IBROX 04 #67 Posted 09 November 2019 - 12:09 AM

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View PostJohn Arrowsmith, on 08 November 2019 - 11:19 PM, said:

 

 

That's easy to solve.   A reskinned asbo with an autoloader and pmm.:trollface:

 

Hey everyone knows a Tier 8 premium saves everything. 

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Lord Jonny IV #68 Posted 09 November 2019 - 12:11 AM

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The problem is that everyone assumes that in +1/-1 their tanks would remain as they are now. That just would not be possible...the list of tanks that would nerfing is long.

 

Having the current crop of tanks with a one tier spread would be madness. Most armour vanishes in favour of high pen guns...with exceptions of course...like a hull down t 29 that never meets tier 9's....yeah good luck getting rid of that, especially when it can pen pretty much everything....even a tiger with its huge health pool, excellent pen and dpm...

 

Then what do you do with PMM tanks do they then go  to +0/-1 ? The likes of the tiger 131 is op as it is...if it only ever met its own tier or lower...wow.

 

But as i say the rebalancing needed would be huge



De4thSt4lker206 #69 Posted 09 November 2019 - 12:20 AM

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View PostLord Jonny IV, on 08 November 2019 - 06:11 PM, said:

The problem is that everyone assumes that in +1/-1 their tanks would remain as they are now. That just would not be possible...the list of tanks that would nerfing is long.

 

Having the current crop of tanks with a one tier spread would be madness. Most armour vanishes in favour of high pen guns...with exceptions of course...like a hull down t 29 that never meets tier 9's....yeah good luck getting rid of that, especially when it can pen pretty much everything....even a tiger with its huge health pool, excellent pen and dpm...

 

Then what do you do with PMM tanks do they then go  to +0/-1 ? The likes of the tiger 131 is op as it is...if it only ever met its own tier or lower...wow.

 

But as i say the rebalancing needed would be huge

 

even tier 9s struggle with hull-Down T29s. -2 makes armor completely irrelevant outside of the ludicrous (like the T29 in hull down)  how good is the armor of a KV-4 in -2?  if someone doesn't know that the entire turret face and top turret are about 190-210 effective you can use its armor against non-TD 9s and 10s i will admit, but any competent player will dismantle it.

 

but regardless Premium ammo makes most tanks armor worthless in their own tier anyway, it is the tanks with insane DPM or alpha damage that would most need re-balancing in +-1, like the Tiger 131.  if the only balancing factor for a tank is it can have bad matchmaking, it isn't a balanced tank. (panzer 5/4, PZ 2 J. as examples)


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John Arrowsmith #70 Posted 09 November 2019 - 12:27 AM

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View PostDe4thSt4lker206, on 08 November 2019 - 11:58 PM, said:

that is fair, but you are implying that you are not in fact in the minority on this issue (specifically forum opinion on +-1) and that the majority is only ahead due to tampering.

 

it is a child's argument to discredit something you disagree with.

 

 

i would personally re-balance this game for WG for free, as impartially and to the best of my ability as i could, hearing arguments for and against on this forum... but then again, yours, mine, and little billy down the street's opinion on balance doubtless differ so in the end someone is going to get upset. 

 

How can less than 50 votes be considered a majority for a poll that realistically needs many 1000's  at least to have any kind of meaningful data,  I wouldn't dare claim such a thing as it's just ludicrous.  70 votes in a poll on the forum (which is full of players who have many alts)  doesn't mean anything considering the small sample size to go off.   Having any poll on the forum is pointless as the results for any poll are the same,  pointless due to far to small sample size to get any kind of accurate data.   

 

I get that you and many others want +1,   but what is the point in doing so if it solves nothing and doesn't increase the player numbers.   It seems an awful lot of effort that could go towards actually adressing problems that need addressed rather than  trying things that so far don't seem to be solving anything.


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CostlessSun07 #71 Posted 09 November 2019 - 12:45 AM

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I think it is still not an easy question to answer after the 2 trial runs.  Before the test run I would have said -1/+1 is the way to go but now I am probably more in the camp of leave things the way the are and try and fix issues where MM is way off.  For example, there needs to be parity in terms of top tier numbers on the red team and on the green team.  In other words if the red team has 6 top tier tanks the green team needs to have the same number.  Also, you just can not have 1 team with a five man platoon facing the opposing team with a five man platoon that is 2 tiers down and no other platoons to balance the match.

De4thSt4lker206 #72 Posted 09 November 2019 - 12:47 AM

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View PostJohn Arrowsmith, on 08 November 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

 

How can less than 50 votes be considered a majority for a poll that realistically needs many 1000's  at least to have any kind of meaningful data,  I wouldn't dare claim such a thing as it's just ludicrous.  70 votes in a poll on the forum (which is full of players who have many alts)  doesn't mean anything considering the small sample size to go off.   Having any poll on the forum is pointless as the results for any poll are the same,  pointless due to far to small sample size to get any kind of accurate data.   

 

I get that you and many others want +1,   but what is the point in doing so if it solves nothing and doesn't increase the player numbers.   It seems an awful lot of effort that could go towards actually adressing problems that need addressed rather than  trying things that so far don't seem to be solving anything.

 

i have no problem with your opinion on +-1, i have a problem with you accusing the poll of being the result of a minority of THE PEOPLE IN THE POLL using alternate accounts to rig it against your precious opinion.

 

i am fully aware that the poll is unrepresentative of the entire player-base. it is simply representative of the player-base on the forums, many of which are the less vocal members of the community. You, however, cannot accept that and are trying to discredit it. 

 

 

+-1 would, in my opinion, foster a more casual atmosphere, which would improve player retention among casuals, who make up the vast majority of the player-base in any given game. when you hit tier 3 and are suddenly running into T-1 heavies and T67s that can 2 shot your shiny new M2 Medium. not fun. people wonder why they are suddenly facing tanks in tier 5 when last tier they only saw +1. when people reach tier 8 and the tanks are not only worse than the previous in most cases but are now seeing broken piles of crap like the deathstars? Until a player has around 3K games they don't have any hope of being good enough to deal with +2.

 

 

this drop off is no where near as bad as them getting clubbed in tier 1-2 by T-rexes, but the game getting harder and "less fun" when a person has less than 100 battles isn't helping at all.

 

hell, it was a massive chore for me to learn all the new tanks, their characteristics, where to shoot, what kind of guns they have, etc. and i was posting super-uni numbers on the regular before i left (dragged myself up from a green to a uni after I joined the forums)

 

if i had to start all over and re-learn the entire game? nah, it wouldn't be worth the effort to be good, and if i can't be good, not gonna bother.

 

No one-week test would be sufficient to see the long-term results of +-1, though we can agree it does not attract a significant amount of new players (they wouldn't even know what +-2 means )  it would and does draw back some old players, myself begin an example. though this is offset by similar numbers of  the people who have stuck with the game and tolerated a freighter's worth of bull [edited]from WG thus far leaving because for some god only knows reason they like being -2 more than being mid tier or +1. 

 

 

and as i said, make me the head of the balancing department and I'll work for free.

 


Edited by De4thSt4lker206, 09 November 2019 - 12:52 AM.

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M4ntiX #73 Posted 09 November 2019 - 12:58 AM

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View PostDe4thSt4lker206, on 09 November 2019 - 12:47 AM, said:

 

i have no problem with your opinion on +-1, i have a problem with you accusing the poll of being the result of a minority of THE PEOPLE IN THE POLL using alternate accounts to rig it against your precious opinion.

 

i am fully aware that the poll is unrepresentative of the entire player-base. it is simply representative of the player-base on the forums, many of which are the less vocal members of the community. You, however, cannot accept that and are trying to discredit it. 

 

 

+-1 would, in my opinion, foster a more casual atmosphere, which would improve player retention among casuals, who make up the vast majority of the player-base in any given game. when you hit tier 3 and are suddenly running into T-1 heavies and T67s that can 2 shot your shiny new M2 Medium. not fun. people wonder why they are suddenly facing tanks in tier 5 when last tier they only saw +1. when people reach tier 8 and the tanks are not only worse than the previous in most cases but are now seeing broken piles of crap like the deathstars? Until a player has around 3K games they don't have any hope of being good enough to deal with +2.

 

 

this drop off is no where near as bad as them getting clubbed in tier 1-2 by T-rexes, but the game getting harder and "less fun" when a person has less than 100 battles isn't helping at all.

 

No one-week test would be sufficient to see the long-term results of +-1, though we can agree it does not attract a significant amount of new players (they wouldn't even know what +-2 means )  it would and does draw back some old players, myself begin an example. though this is offset by similar numbers of  the people who have stuck with the game and tolerated a freighter's worth of bull [edited]from WG thus far leaving because for some god only knows reason they like being -2 more than being mid tier or +1. 

 

 

and as i said, make me the head of the balancing department and I'll work for free.

 

 

Perhaps you should look up those infamous polls and see for yourself. What John is saying is no coincidence. When the first +/-1 mm event dropped and the poll results came in with a crushing advantage for +/-1mm, easily half of the people who voted where alts and rerolls.

 

I can't speak for Facebook and Reddit polls because a) I haven't seen them and b) I don't care.

 

Oh, and as far as becoming the head of balancing dept., that's a no. I've seen some of your proposed tank changes and sadly I don't agree with most of them.


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De4thSt4lker206 #74 Posted 09 November 2019 - 01:44 AM

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View PostM4ntiX, on 08 November 2019 - 06:58 PM, said:

 

Perhaps you should look up those infamous polls and see for yourself. What John is saying is no coincidence. When the first +/-1 mm event dropped and the poll results came in with a crushing advantage for +/-1mm, easily half of the people who voted where alts and rerolls.

 

I can't speak for Facebook and Reddit polls because a) I haven't seen them and b) I don't care.

 

Oh, and as far as becoming the head of balancing dept., that's a no. I've seen some of your proposed tank changes and sadly I don't agree with most of them.

Oh, were the votes visible and the accounts known to be linked, or are you just baselessly asserting that?

 

 

well, discarding the Chieftain ones (which are essentially a meme now) I think most are/were fairly decent considering WG (PC) implemented similar ideas or has done one better than i wrote down on many of them ;)

 

http://forum-console.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/184180-my-suggestions-for-the-game/

 

 

Dids

 

-the Lowe (they went further than i did). 

-4202 (p) (again they went further).

 -AMX M4 45 (they were a bit more reserved, but did buff it notably).

 -IS-7 (PC went much farther than i did, too far IMO)

-Conway (WG gave it the speed buff i suggested, without the gun nerf, and threw a lol package on too),

-The Banana buster is essentially the black prince C. 

-the Cearnavon they buffed the Carny AX way farther than i suggested, and the actual tank has essentially the reworked 32 pdr i suggested separately

-The FV 201 (A45) they did not go as far as i suggested, but they made it at least a tolerable tank.

-M48 buff (can't really take credit for that, that was on PC before i suggested it)

-PC has buffed the leopard and AMX 30B, though not as I proposed

-Buffed the Pershing (i suggested mobility, they went with Pen)

-PC has essentially the British TD Premium I proposed in the Turtle mk.1

-Re-balance TDs (PC)

-Re-balance Arty (PC) (not as i would have done at all, stun is terrible)

 

didn'ts

 

-Re-balance TDs (console)

-Re-balance Arty (Console)

-Buff Panther 1

-do an actual decent job with Tiger 131

-buff the Black prince (they just made a clown tank with one suggestion)

-re-balance the T54

-re-balance the Tier 10 Russian easiums

-buff the Panzer T-25

-introduce the new TT lines i suggested (new medium line for USA, modified turreted TD line)

 

 


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El Materdor43 #75 Posted 09 November 2019 - 01:59 AM

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View PostDe4thSt4lker206, on 08 November 2019 - 08:44 PM, said:

Oh, were the votes visible and the accounts known to be linked, or are you just baselessly asserting that?

 

 

well, discarding the Chieftain ones (which are essentially a meme now) I think most are/were fairly decent considering WG (PC) implemented similar ideas or has done one better than i wrote down on many of them ;)

 

http://forum-console.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/184180-my-suggestions-for-the-game/

 

 

Dids

 

-the Lowe (they went further than i did). 

-4202 (p) (again they went further).

 -AMX M4 45 (they were a bit more reserved, but did buff it notably).

 -IS-7 (PC went much farther than i did, too far IMO)

-Conway (WG gave it the speed buff i suggested, without the gun nerf, and threw a lol package on too),

-The Banana buster is essentially the black prince C. 

-the Cearnavon they buffed the Carny AX way farther than i suggested, and the actual tank has essentially the reworked 32 pdr i suggested separately

-The FV 201 (A45) they did not go as far as i suggested, but they made it at least a tolerable tank.

-M48 buff (can't really take credit for that, that was on PC before i suggested it)

-PC has buffed the leopard and AMX 30B, though not as I proposed

-Buffed the Pershing (i suggested mobility, they went with Pen)

-PC has essentially the British TD Premium I proposed in the Turtle mk.1

-Re-balance TDs (PC)

-Re-balance Arty (PC) (not as i would have done at all, stun is terrible)

 

didn'ts

 

-Re-balance TDs (console)

-Re-balance Arty (Console)

-Buff Panther 1

-do an actual decent job with Tiger 131

-buff the Black prince (they just made a clown tank with one suggestion)

-re-balance the T54

-re-balance the Tier 10 Russian easiums

-buff the Panzer T-25

-introduce the new TT lines i suggested (new medium line for USA, modified turreted TD line)

 

 

In the other thread you were talking about higher tiered TD’s not being relevant (or something close to that) Ru mediums have become something I don’t see much of. Not since the Machine, Chisel and the M60 were introduced. I still see one here and there, mostly the 430U


   

 

                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                 

 


De4thSt4lker206 #76 Posted 09 November 2019 - 02:09 AM

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View PostEl Materdor43, on 08 November 2019 - 07:59 PM, said:

In the other thread you were talking about higher tiered TD’s not being relevant (or something close to that) Ru mediums have become something I don’t see much of. Not since the Machine, Chisel and the M60 were introduced. I still see one here and there, mostly the 430U

 

yeah, the contents of that post are about... oh... 3 years out of date? before the meta change and far before the machine, Chisel and M60 (though the M60 is far from OP, it is just a leopard 1 with some frontal armor)

 

I still stand by the TD (and T54) nerf suggestions. just because a vehicle isn't popular anymore doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced. i don't feel the TDs are irrelevant, just not played with the same frequency for some reason. maybe the portion of the player base that so adored them is the portion that got bored and moved on over the last 3 years?

 

 

the game has gotten even messier over the last 3 years, but i would probably also nerf the Conq, Super Conq, rebalance the E-75, and buff most of the new lines/nations. the mercs.... not even worth my time thinking about them.


Edited by De4thSt4lker206, 09 November 2019 - 02:12 AM.

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De4thSt4lker206 #77 Posted 09 November 2019 - 02:17 AM

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View PostEl Materdor43, on 08 November 2019 - 07:59 PM, said:

In the other thread you were talking about higher tiered TD’s not being relevant (or something close to that) Ru mediums have become something I don’t see much of. Not since the Machine, Chisel and the M60 were introduced. I still see one here and there, mostly the 430U

 

credit where it is due though, WGCB nerfed the Object 268 V4, and Object 430U before putting them on console so they aren't utterly stupid like PC. (mostly the 268, but the 430U makes the PC 121 irrelevant, whereas our 430Us ROF is much lower to fit its heavy tank armor)

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MaximusBoonie #78 Posted 09 November 2019 - 02:22 AM

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View PostJungl1st-Souljah, on 08 November 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:

 

-+1 is trash, we want -+0 :hiding:

 

-2+0

z0mBieBra1Ns #79 Posted 09 November 2019 - 02:35 AM

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You dont want to rebalance the tanks to the point of making them like pmm tanks. Doing that will defeat the purpose why people like the -1 +1. Some of the pmm tanks struggle against same tier tanks let alone +1. Only rebalance might be to take a little hp away from the light tanks imo. I honestly didnt come across any tank that i thought was op during this event.

John Arrowsmith #80 Posted 09 November 2019 - 08:10 AM

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View Postz0mBieBra1Ns, on 09 November 2019 - 02:35 AM, said:

You dont want to rebalance the tanks to the point of making them like pmm tanks. Doing that will defeat the purpose why people like the -1 +1. Some of the pmm tanks struggle against same tier tanks let alone +1. Only rebalance might be to take a little hp away from the light tanks imo. I honestly didnt come across any tank that i thought was op during this event.

 

are you sure you sure you were playing the  correct game?

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