Jump to content


Loaded dice - an alternative view


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

Kebabsaurus Rex #1 Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:20 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 19783 battles
  • 1,957
  • [ASYLM]
  • Member since:
    02-07-2015

So the loaded dice event reduces the RNG that we have under normal conditions (10% instead of 25%).

 

I have seen people celebrating this; however, I have an alternate view of why this is not a positive change:

 

Loaded dice will reduce the chances of you penning when your bottom tier (regardless of -2 or -2).

 

The above is true because if you reduce the ceiling in RNG from 25% to 10%, you have a 15% reduction in penning the enemy when your bottom tier - so those shots that MIGHT have done through with 25% RNG have way less chance of going through with 10% RNG.

 

However, the top tier tank will have the chance of not penning/bouncing reduced by 15%.

 

So loaded dice benefits top tier tanks and screws you when your bottom tier.

 

 



DwarfOnDrugs #2 Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:48 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 31807 battles
  • 2,470
  • [-UNL-]
  • Member since:
    03-12-2014
Less RNG. Sounds good to me. No more bullpoop bounces

 


JatemKaa #3 Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:55 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 62379 battles
  • 4,709
  • Member since:
    05-27-2014

View PostDwarfOnDrugs, on 03 December 2019 - 08:48 AM, said:

Less RNG. Sounds good to me. No more bullpoop bounces

 

Agree here. The RNG mechanic is a good and sound one, just too far out of whack. 

SPUK4U #4 Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:56 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 11471 battles
  • 1,966
  • Member since:
    07-24-2018

View PostKebabsaurus Rex, on 03 December 2019 - 02:20 PM, said:

So the loaded dice event reduces the RNG that we have under normal conditions (10% instead of 25%).

 

I have seen people celebrating this; however, I have an alternate view of why this is not a positive change:

 

Loaded dice will reduce the chances of you penning when your bottom tier (regardless of -2 or -2).

 

The above is true because if you reduce the ceiling in RNG from 25% to 10%, you have a 15% reduction in penning the enemy when your bottom tier - so those shots that MIGHT have done through with 25% RNG have way less chance of going through with 10% RNG.

 

However, the top tier tank will have the chance of not penning/bouncing reduced by 15%.

 

So loaded dice benefits top tier tanks and screws you when your bottom tier.

 

 

 

So true, I got Pz III K and I had to use premium ammo to pen tier V heavy tanks. Not much change against tier VI heavy tank and TD's. Now with +-2 it pointles to go against top tier tanks, best is to camp near spawn and protect arty agaist lights.  +-1 was fun, loaded dice ruined part of it as players with silver to spare run their tanks with premium ammo

 


- Ask, Observe, Learn and Improve - 

Spoiler

 


LifeTilts #5 Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:58 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 43417 battles
  • 1,899
  • Member since:
    05-23-2014

View PostKebabsaurus Rex, on 03 December 2019 - 04:20 PM, said:

So the loaded dice event reduces the RNG that we have under normal conditions (10% instead of 25%).

 

That's for the damage spread, penetration is set at 0%. Essentially tanks that would penetrate <50% of the time in certain situations now can't penetrate at all. 

 

This event only benefits premium spammers, also I noticed they sold gold rounds at -50% yesterday. Clearly that was just to milk some suckers out of their money. GG WG


 

My Twitch Channel Solo gameplay, Tank requests (300+ tanks), No premium spam.

 


JatemKaa #6 Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:58 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 62379 battles
  • 4,709
  • Member since:
    05-27-2014

View PostSPUK4U, on 03 December 2019 - 08:56 AM, said:

 

So true, I got Pz III K and I had to use premium ammo to pen tier V heavy tanks. Not much change against tier VI heavy tank and TD's. Now with +-2 it pointles to go against top tier tanks, best is to camp near spawn and protect arty agaist lights.  +-1 was fun, loaded dice ruined part of it as players with silver to spare run their tanks with premium ammo

 

 

Missing the point here I am afraid. This is going to happen no matter what the play environment - you would have to remove the premium ammo to stop it.

panthermark #7 Posted 03 December 2019 - 04:49 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 13382 battles
  • 1,167
  • Member since:
    12-30-2016

View PostKebabsaurus Rex, on 03 December 2019 - 08:20 AM, said:

So the loaded dice event reduces the RNG that we have under normal conditions (10% instead of 25%).

 

I have seen people celebrating this; however, I have an alternate view of why this is not a positive change:

 

Loaded dice will reduce the chances of you penning when your bottom tier (regardless of -2 or -2).

 

The above is true because if you reduce the ceiling in RNG from 25% to 10%, you have a 15% reduction in penning the enemy when your bottom tier - so those shots that MIGHT have done through with 25% RNG have way less chance of going through with 10% RNG.

 

However, the top tier tank will have the chance of not penning/bouncing reduced by 15%.

 

So loaded dice benefits top tier tanks and screws you when your bottom tier.

 

 

 

That is why it is combined with +1/-1.  

Matchmaking/balance still needs to be addressed. 

 


3 MOE's: VK 30.01D (VI), T-34 (V), M-24 Chaffee (V)

2 MOE's: Indien-Panzer (VIII), T-20 (VII), Cromwell B (VI), Snakebite (VI), T-37 (VI), M4 Sherman w/Derp (V), VK 16.02 Leopard (V)


Pit Friend #8 Posted 03 December 2019 - 04:51 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 33602 battles
  • 18,657
  • [PTATO]
  • Member since:
    07-14-2014
Loaded dice would be fine if it reduced Penetration RNG to 10% as well as damage. Taking it to zero went too far.

When the nice guy loses his patience the devil shivers. 


EdwardSt #9 Posted 03 December 2019 - 04:58 PM

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 2487 battles
  • 212
  • Member since:
    12-04-2015
Leas RNG is way better.
Player should not even try to pen an armor plate if average penetration is not enough. So less RNG make a gameplay more complicated for those who play that strange way.
Opposite those who choose correct shells and shoot with enough average penetration have more reliable chance to pen an armor plate when its possible. And thats good.
Id go for 10% on damage and 3% on penetration as standard rule.

Tempest fox3 #10 Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:01 PM

    Major

  • Beta Tester
  • 21072 battles
  • 18,469
  • [JOCO]
  • Member since:
    08-22-2013

Not a fan of the loaded dice events personally. Shots that would normally be close to a 50/50 become either 100% or 0%.

 

I End up using far more prammo during these events than normal.

 

It would probably help if they fixed (or straight up removed) the orange pen indicator for these events. 


War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25 - In order obtained

 

Spoiler

natedaishmaster #11 Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:18 PM

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 26955 battles
  • 335
  • [-AXS-]
  • Member since:
    07-29-2014

View PostTempest fox3, on 03 December 2019 - 09:01 AM, said:

Not a fan of the loaded dice events personally. Shots that would normally be close to a 50/50 become either 100% or 0%.

 

I End up using far more prammo during these events than normal.

 

It would probably help if they fixed (or straight up removed) the orange pen indicator for these events. 

 

While I would have preferred +-10% for both, I don't see a difference in pen percentage. Constant change of angles and distance between targets introduces a lot of variance in the amount of armor that you can penetrate to the point that it seems normal both ways. I rarely shoot at stuff that I have a <50% chance of penning anyways so it is nice to see all of the shots that should pen actually pen

3 MOE: Hellcat, Lycan, Sp1C, T20, M41 Bulldog, Motherland, STA 1, T95E2, Pershing, AMX 50 100, AMX 13 90, T54ltwt, T49, RU251, M46 Patton, Type 61, Leopard PTA, T54, E50, Batchat AP, Skoda T50, Centurion 7/1, Sharpshooter, T10, Conquerer, AMX 13 105, Sheridan, T-100LT, RHM PZW, Chisel, M48 Patton, Leopard 1, E50M, Obj 140, Batchat 25t, TVP 50/51, IS7, AMX 50B, Super Conqueror, The Machine, Chieftain, T110E4


SPUK4U #12 Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:19 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 11471 battles
  • 1,966
  • Member since:
    07-24-2018

View PostJatemKaa, on 03 December 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

 

Missing the point here I am afraid. This is going to happen no matter what the play environment - you would have to remove the premium ammo to stop it.

Not totally, to reach same score, I had to use premium ammo when previously I could do it with one or two shots.  So the dice event promoted use of premium ammo and again this put new players in bad position as they don't have silver to burn in ammo. No loaded dice and you have change to pen without premium ammo.  


- Ask, Observe, Learn and Improve - 

Spoiler

 


natedaishmaster #13 Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:28 PM

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 26955 battles
  • 335
  • [-AXS-]
  • Member since:
    07-29-2014

View PostSPUK4U, on 03 December 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

Not totally, to reach same score, I had to use premium ammo when previously I could do it with one or two shots.  So the dice event promoted use of premium ammo and again this put new players in bad position as they don't have silver to burn in ammo. No loaded dice and you have change to pen without premium ammo.  

 

This event helps pen as much as it hurts. Now you won't low roll your pen ever either. If you are relying on high rolling pen to actually get through armor, you're doing it wrong. 95% of my shots normally are aimed at places that I should pen >75% of the time. This event helps me since I no longer bounce on the low pen rolls. Again, with angling and pen drop over distance, the values change enough that a 50/50 is still more or less a 50/50 even without the variance in the shells.

3 MOE: Hellcat, Lycan, Sp1C, T20, M41 Bulldog, Motherland, STA 1, T95E2, Pershing, AMX 50 100, AMX 13 90, T54ltwt, T49, RU251, M46 Patton, Type 61, Leopard PTA, T54, E50, Batchat AP, Skoda T50, Centurion 7/1, Sharpshooter, T10, Conquerer, AMX 13 105, Sheridan, T-100LT, RHM PZW, Chisel, M48 Patton, Leopard 1, E50M, Obj 140, Batchat 25t, TVP 50/51, IS7, AMX 50B, Super Conqueror, The Machine, Chieftain, T110E4


panthermark #14 Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:29 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 13382 battles
  • 1,167
  • Member since:
    12-30-2016

View PostSPUK4U, on 03 December 2019 - 11:19 AM, said:

Not totally, to reach same score, I had to use premium ammo when previously I could do it with one or two shots.  So the dice event promoted use of premium ammo and again this put new players in bad position as they don't have silver to burn in ammo. No loaded dice and you have change to pen without premium ammo.  

 

So basically, you used premium ammo....only when you needed it?  Better MM would mean you would need it less...this is just one small part of the issue that can be fixed now.

 

Newer players (that don't pay to win) are at a disadvantage because of MM, power creep and OP tanks....along with a game full of vets that feast on noobs. 

   


3 MOE's: VK 30.01D (VI), T-34 (V), M-24 Chaffee (V)

2 MOE's: Indien-Panzer (VIII), T-20 (VII), Cromwell B (VI), Snakebite (VI), T-37 (VI), M4 Sherman w/Derp (V), VK 16.02 Leopard (V)


Gibspmuh #15 Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:57 PM

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 12522 battles
  • 20
  • Member since:
    01-10-2017
On the plus side it made getting the Steel Wall medals for the Mercenary contract I'm working on a piece of cake - hull down in a T29 and bounce away!

SPUK4U #16 Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:09 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 11471 battles
  • 1,966
  • Member since:
    07-24-2018

View Postpanthermark, on 03 December 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

 

So basically, you used premium ammo....only when you needed it?  Better MM would mean you would need it less...this is just one small part of the issue that can be fixed now.

 

Newer players (that don't pay to win) are at a disadvantage because of MM, power creep and OP tanks....along with a game full of vets that feast on noobs. 

   

 

Generally, I shoot premium ammo when I can't pen the target with standard.  That's why tank has different ammo types that player changes then based on target.  Now, lets take my new Black Friday toy Pz III K a tier V medium as example.  I has tier V   75mm gun with 103 pen (77-129)  in standard ammo and 139 pen (104-174)  in premium ammo.   Typical tank that I met in loaded dice was CKV-1 it has turret armor 110mm and 75mm hull armor. If it angles itself and turns turret towards me it's hull's relative armor comes 106mm and above, making it impossible to pen it with standard ammo during loaded dice, I had to use premium ammo.  Loaded dice turned CKV-1 invincible tank to  those players that don't have silver to spam premium ammo.  In  Pz III K, it's standard ammo costs 70 silver and premium ammo costs 2800 silver.  That's right with cost of single premium round I can try to pen that CKV-1  40 times in normal game play.  Pz III K can carry 75 shells and if they are standard, I spent 5250 silver for ammo.    Now, if they are premium rounds, I spent 196000 silver for ammo, assumption of course is that I use all.  5250 vs 196000 silver that is a huge difference for new player.    This is what loaded dice does, it makes fun and fair event like +-1 to favoring old players that have silver to spam.  Just like being in bottom -2, with new players climbing up it favors heavily experienced players that are above you in tiers with better tanks and stronger armor. 

 

Conclusion: Loaded dice  favors old players with lot of silver to spent for premium ammo (usually also good players)  and it gives a bone to new players and free to play account players that try to save silver to open new packages and tanks. 


- Ask, Observe, Learn and Improve - 

Spoiler

 


AnonymousHobo69 #17 Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:57 PM

    Major

  • Beta Tester
  • 40392 battles
  • 4,553
  • [-L7-]
  • Member since:
    07-19-2013
Loaded dice benefits good players as it removes the chance of low-rolling on pen thus rewarding well-aimed shots, and the normal RNG benefits bad players as it rewards poorly aimed shots that only pen when you're lucky. If you're penning less with loaded dice, then it's only user error at that point :)

TocFanKe4 #18 Posted 03 December 2019 - 10:07 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 21102 battles
  • 24,512
  • [GIRLS]
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014
Loaded Dice is a nerf to high rate of fire tanks.
That's why I hate it, because I love high RoF tanks. Big alpha tanks already get a big advantage in this game. This makes it worse.

Say your gun has a 100 mm of pen. The armor you're shooting at is 101 mm. You have about a 50 percent chance of penning before. A high rate of fire tank can use that to its advantage. It'll take a bunch of shots, about half will pen, and I'll be able to put up a good fight. You'll get decent damage. With a high alpha, long load time tank, bouncing half your shots is catastrophic. You have to make every shot count to keep from killing your DPM.

With loaded dice, the high alpha tank gets to keep its boom stick. But the high RoF tank can't pepper someone into submission. It's a straight nerf to tank type that's already fighting uphill battles.

Edited by TocFanKe4, 03 December 2019 - 10:13 PM.

 

My dislike of +/- 1 pales in comparison to my hatred of Loaded Dice.


Tempest fox3 #19 Posted 03 December 2019 - 10:13 PM

    Major

  • Beta Tester
  • 21072 battles
  • 18,469
  • [JOCO]
  • Member since:
    08-22-2013

View PostAnonymousHobo69, on 03 December 2019 - 09:57 PM, said:

Loaded dice benefits good players as it removes the chance of low-rolling on pen thus rewarding well-aimed shots, and the normal RNG benefits bad players as it rewards poorly aimed shots that only pen when you're lucky. If you're penning less with loaded dice, then it's only user error at that point :)

 

The weakspots of a lot of high tier heavies hover around the 50/50 pen mark with the standard ammo of a lot of equal tier (non-td) guns. 

 

Under loaded dice those same weakspots are either a 100% pen or a 0% pen with the same standard ammo. The game still shows the same visual information (orange pen reticle).

 

It also makes premium ammo even better, one example, I was playing my conq and came against a 705a. He was angling and hiding his lower plate, I skillfully pressed A and penned his UFP every shot. Normally this would be a 55-60% chance to penetrate, under loaded dice it was 100%.


War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25 - In order obtained

 

Spoiler

TocFanKe4 #20 Posted 03 December 2019 - 10:24 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 21102 battles
  • 24,512
  • [GIRLS]
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014

View PostAnonymousHobo69, on 03 December 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

Loaded dice benefits good players as it removes the chance of low-rolling on pen thus rewarding well-aimed shots, and the normal RNG benefits bad players as it rewards poorly aimed shots that only pen when you're lucky. If you're penning less with loaded dice, then it's only user error at that point :)

 

I don't totally agree with this.  Bad players are going to be inconsistent no matter what.  Normal RNG is going to screw them as much as it helps them.  They're inconsistent because they are getting into bad places and taking poor shots.  The occasional high roll pen isn't going to happen enough to make them win more.  I don't see this change as nerfing or buffing certain players so much as nerfing high RoF tanks. I'm penning less with Loaded Dice mainly in my high RoF tanks, especially when lower tier.  I'm hitting weak spots that used to pen 40-50% of the time, but now they bounce every time.  This makes the high RoF tank player have to adjust their game because some tanks that had frontal weak spots to their shells no longer have them. 

 

You might call that "user error" now but it wasn't an error previously.  Tanks you could whittle down before from the front are now no longer vulnerable.  That's a big adjustment.  I'm just not on board giving high alpha tanks even more of an advantage by nerfing high RoF tanks.  Before you could use your armor to bounce a shot or two while you worked on peppering them down, now you have to try to drive that slow Churchill into a flanking or rear position. 


 

My dislike of +/- 1 pales in comparison to my hatred of Loaded Dice.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users